Bobcats would lose a lot in Felton

[playoffs...PLAYOFFS?]

Here's a nice article discussing the intangibles of Raymond Felton.

It's a good refresher since Felton gets no credit for some of these intangibles, even though these are qualities that he shares with GW. It may have to do with unreasonable expectation that as a PG he should be the leading scorer, the constant comparison against Chris Paul, the "anybody but carolina" thinking, or his shooting inconsistency. Either way...something to think about given that trading RF seems pretty inminent. I'll agree with Bonnell in that I hope we get something worthwhile in return, and not just trade for trade sakes

http://blogs.charlotte.com/inside_the_nba/2009/01/bobcats-would-lose-a-lot-in-felton.html

[DanielWheeler]

I am sold that Felton needs to stay.

We have a nice 1-2 punch like the Panthers do in Williams and Stewart in a crucial position.

Depth can be filled otherways, but having Felton and Augustin pushing each other in competition can only help those two grow.

What do you think?

[playoffs...PLAYOFFS?]

it's hard to say , i'm torn between these two ideas

1) his value is growing and is at the highest...IE, we can get the most out of him..much like Jrich brought us a better team

2) RF hasn't had a chance to be coached in the NBA. He is the type of player that if he is told how to improve he will do it and make himself better. If RF were to stay here, I think he would be a real good player.

I just don't understand why RF is not the "veteran guard" that LB always wants.

[playoffs...PLAYOFFS?]

Here's another article on Felton by Bonnell, on how Felton is ignoring the trade talks

Considering his game tonight, I have to applaud his efforts and his mental toughness in light of all the trade talks. Glad to have quality & class act athletes in our organization

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/bobcats/story/468885.html

[Slam]

I think he had a hell of a game tonight. The best he has played in 275 games.

So like when someone like Ammo has a good night, I totally expected a thread like this to appear and totally expect a "Trade Felton" thread to appear in a weeks time when he goes 1/12 from the floor.

[Slam]

There is no doubt he is a very, very classy kid who loves the team and the sport.

He'd be a very hard person to not like. His heart alone is a very admirable trait.

[playoffs...PLAYOFFS?]

that's true and valid..

but doesn't change my perception that i could go either way on felton, i'm content having him on our team despite his inconsistency and dubious decision making at times.

[DanielWheeler]

I've been debating it for months, but tonight with Augustin out Felton showed why having both is important.

I am not appreciating your snooty ass comments of late. So what if I made this post? If you don't like it, then ignore it!

[playoffs...PLAYOFFS?]

not trying to defend him, but i think his point is about people jumping on the band wagon or over complementing felton and forgetting his weaknesses.. perhaps the tone could have been better, but valid point

[TheBeagle]

There is no doubt he is a very, very classy kid who loves the team and the sport.

He'd be a very hard person to not like. His heart alone is a very admirable trait. Not possible to sum up Raymond any better than this!

[davcbow]

I like Felton, I love it when he has a good game and I get really pissed when he isnt hitting anything and keeps shooting 3's. As of now on the trade Felton issue, I will support what ever LB thinks is best.. :cool:
If Felton could play every game like he did tonight against Detroit, I would keep him no matter what (I do understand that players have bad nights at times) and I would hope for a good offseason as far as picking up a quality big or the draft.... Having said that his value as a player in a possible trade is growing and even the sports writers are taking notice....:cool:

[G-Force for MVP]

i dont want felton traded not just cuz he had a good game against the pistons, because i know the cats are going ot get trash in return.

[Ghost Kat]

Not possible to sum up Raymond any better than this!

Agreed....

[Ampsportsduo]

The "problem" with keeping Felton is the team being close to the salary cap. If the team ends up with a lottery pick, the team's salaries will be approximately $57 million and the projected cap would be no higher than $61 million. If the team wants to keep Hollins, Singletary, or Howard they'll also have to re-sign. Felton will likely demand in the 6-8 million dollar range, which will push the team past the cap. I would prefer that this team keep Felton, but this team has never been over the salary cap and with MJ already 'exceeding Bob's blank check' it's hard to imagine them going over.

Of course, anyone of value that the team could potentially get of equal value in a trade for Raymond will likely carry a price tag that will also put them over the cap, or will do so in the near future. If the team is unable to make a good trade (aka not a jettison), they'd be wise to attempt to lock him up and potentially pursue a trade in a year or two (provided DJ continues to progress). At his age, his value will not drop during for several years.

[spectre]

but this team has never been over the salary cap and with MJ already 'exceeding Bob's blank check' it's hard to imagine them going over.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-player-salaries/team/Bobcats/

We're over the salary cap now...sitting at 64.6 million.

If 6 million for a starter/6th man PG/combo is too rich for the Bobcats then they need to move.

[ohara831]

It all depends on what offers come our way. LB will make a move IF he believes it is in our best interest. And lets face it. I think all of us would be happy to move ANY member of the team IF is made us BETTER and we were winning more games. The most recent move has us playing .500 ball right now. If another move has us playing .600 ball, I cant believe anyone would really complain. If not making a move is the best move, then I trust LB to stay put.

[Ampsportsduo]

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-player-salaries/team/Bobcats/

We're over the salary cap now...sitting at 64.6 million.

If 6 million for a starter/6th man PG/combo is too rich for the Bobcats then they need to move.

That's higher than the salaries on this site or on hoopshype. It appears to have the full contract value for the myriad of power forwards we've signed. Based on their time playing in the NBA their salaries go up, but that additional cost is offset by the league. Subtracting those offset amounts puts the team under the cap. We're splitting hairs, but if anyone thinks that FO isn't conscious of the cap, they're kidding themselves.

Besides, $6 million probably won't keep Raymond here.

[spectre]

Hoopshype is about 1.5 short; they show Crash's salary with yearly raises and it's pretty much accepted that he's at 9.5 per flat. You are probably right about DE charging us the entire year for those waived guys; adjusting both would put them right in line with this site...about 62.4 million and over the cap.

Just saying, you can't claim that this franchise will NOT go over the cap when we're already over.

And who knows what Felton will get in offers...but there are only a few teams that can offer over the MLE without our help in S&Ts. I think him getting over 6 isn't a sure thing at all unless we just offer it to him (and I don't think we will).

Maybe he does like Crash did...take less years at the MLE to "prove" he might be worth more?


It all depends on what offers come our way. LB will make a move IF he believes it is in our best interest. And lets face it. I think all of us would be happy to move ANY member of the team IF is made us BETTER and we were winning more games. The most recent move has us playing .500 ball right now. If another move has us playing .600 ball, I cant believe anyone would really complain. If not making a move is the best move, then I trust LB to stay put.

ILBIT

I don't really see anyone doubting who Larry wants (at least not much); the big worry is HIggins/Jordan not getting screwed valuewise in making it happen. Thing is teams are making up stuff...so we don't even know for sure LB even wants some of the players mentioned.

[TattoodCats4life]

I'm of the mind that Felton would be good to start until we are completely kicked from the playoff race, if we get kicked... Then let DJ play as the starting point once we're out of the hunt.

That said, if we can trade Felton + filler and get a 10th year 1, a 5-10 ppg 2 and maybe a project big I'd live with that too. (If we trade ammo though I'd be more pushing for a 1 a 2 and a 3 because there's not much standing behind Wallace other than Adam). We just need to extract better value from Felton. I mean the Blazers were interested in him, and frankly they have alot of young good players. GSW and the Kings im sure have a player or two, or if we took OKC out of the ongoing discussion and got decent stuff from DAL That'd be fine... Diop shouldn't be the best thing we get though thats absurd.

[TattoodCats4life]

There is no doubt he is a very, very classy kid who loves the team and the sport.

He'd be a very hard person to not like. His heart alone is a very admirable trait.

Having had a short conversation with Ray your dead on with that... He does LOVE this team, love this city, and frankly he loves being so close to his home. He also shows his heart and class with the amount of humanitarian work he does in and around Charlotte. I think the only other player who does as much work in the community (and help supply the moral backbone to the team) is Carroll. Please just don't misread this and think I'm saying no one else helps out... they do, in alot of team organized stuff, but Ray (and Matt) have done and continue to do more and more that they setup separate from the team.

-WOOT 300-

[Slam]

Paying Hammer what we are, Nazzy what we are and EO50 what we are is going to prevent us from retaining Felts.

(I excluded Crash because I totally think he earns his pay check)

[Ampsportsduo]

And who knows what Felton will get in offers...but there are only a few teams that can offer over the MLE without our help in S&Ts. I think him getting over 6 isn't a sure thing at all unless we just offer it to him (and I don't think we will).

Atlanta may and they could be in the market for a point guard and it only takes one. Felton will be in demand and someone else has already showed that some people are way underestimating the going rate for a PG of his caliber.


Just saying, you can't claim that this franchise will NOT go over the cap when we're already over.

Fine, the team's salaries are higher than only the Clippers and the Grizzlies and that's not a coincidence. The team did a giveaway where the first 100 people at the game got a hat. 100. Local Harris Teeter's spend more on free samples every day. Play with the semantics all you want, my original points stand.

[Ampsportsduo]

Having had a short conversation with Ray your dead on with that... He does LOVE this team, love this city, and frankly he loves being so close to his home. He also shows his heart and class with the amount of humanitarian work he does in and around Charlotte. I think the only other player who does as much work in the community (and help supply the moral backbone to the team) is Carroll. Please just don't misread this and think I'm saying no one else helps out... they do, in alot of team organized stuff, but Ray (and Matt) have done and continue to do more and more that they setup separate from the team.

-WOOT 300-

You can't leave out Mek, his newest campaign while not focused on Charlotte is a tremendous undertaking.

[Felton for Prez]

I love Felts and don't want to see him go but its the right move. I think he's gone before the deadline. I just don't see the team ponying up for what Ray is going to want so trade him while he has value. Despite the constant vitrol here, he does actually have value and teams always need a PG. We can use him to help dump another contract (Nazr, Matty) which helps with flexibility down the road. Obviously, Diop and Watson isn't what I have in mind so have to follow the ol' motto: ILBIT and hope that we get more athletic down low.

That being said, here's hoping we roll off a monster winning streak thus causing the team to disregard any trades.

[Slam]

I honestly think that Felts would give us a home town discount (remember him personally phoning BB prior to the draft and begging him to draft him so he would be close to home?) but even with as much as Felts loves the team and it's location, I don't think he'd be able to discount his price enough.

[spectre]

ATL isn't in that great of shape; they might only have 33.5 guaranteed this offseason, but including capholds they're still over the cap. It is possible for them to make the moves to give Felton an offer, but it won't be that easy.

BTW, we're only going to be at 49 million guaranteed next year and be without May/Singletary/Howard/S. Brown/Felton. Theoretically we could sign Felton to 8 million (NOT advocating that)...pay our draft pick, give Singletary, Brown & Howard min contracts and still be under the cap.

[TattoodCats4life]

You can't leave out Mek, his newest campaign while not focused on Charlotte is a tremendous undertaking.

Yes very true... and I also forgot Wallace's foundation, to which I am a "giver?" ($1/steal and some change for every point).

[TattoodCats4life]

Any thought how we could possibly pick up someone decent in the FA class of 2009? Can we afford anyone like that here right now? I'd love to trade Nazr and Matt for some expirings and see what we could get this summer, and if nothing pans out give felton the money he's worth (minus his home team discount, which may be enough for an extra min salary).

[playoffs...PLAYOFFS?]

Paying Hammer what we are, Nazzy what we are and EO50 what we are is going to prevent us from retaining Felts.

(I excluded Crash because I totally think he earns his pay check)

Bingo.

I can justify Meks salary, but what pisses me off is seing what Hammer/Nazzy make.

If we cant get rid of their contracts by trade , then it makes it that much harder to keep Felton..

Problem is...who are we going to trade to keep Felton and give up those contracts? We can't trade Mek, Crash, Diaw, Bell, DJ... and nobody wants Ammo

[spectre]

Any thought how we could possibly pick up someone decent in the FA class of 2009? Can we afford anyone like that here right now? I'd love to trade Nazr and Matt for some expirings and see what we could get this summer, and if nothing pans out give felton the money he's worth (minus his home team discount, which may be enough for an extra min salary).

We have to resolve Felton's situation first due to the 13.8 million cap hold.

[Slam]

I can justify Meks salary.
Wish I could but I can't - especially considering the impact it will have long term Vs his ability.

[TattoodCats4life]

We have to resolve Felton's situation first due to the 13.8 million cap hold.

I see, I'm still learning all the ways the cap and salary work in situations like that.

[playoffs...PLAYOFFS?]

Wish I could but I can't - especially considering the impact it will have long term Vs his ability.

ben wallace vs mek, who is better?

LB won with wallace as a center...and wallace is less of a scorer than Mek.

Mek just needs to NBA coaching to learn how to place as a center in the NBA..i think there is still some upswing with him. it's hard to see this, specially when he is shooting those brick hookshots. but i think LB is content with Mek .

[Slam]

ben wallace vs mek, who is better?

Ben Wallace.

Do you think that EO50 will ever be a DPOY let alone a multi DPOY?

Of course, I'd be freaking out if I was a fan of the Bulls and my team had signed Big Ben to that stupid contract they signed him to as well!

[spectre]

Wish I could but I can't - especially considering the impact it will have long term Vs his ability.

Don't forget...you and me both are thinking the FO could be looking to get out of his deal this offseason too.

Tattood not a problem. Heck, it was like 3 years following the Cats before I realized what a cap hold was. Salary and the CBA isn't a simple thing (they pay the lawyers to make it that way)

[playoffs...PLAYOFFS?]

Ben Wallace.

Of course, I'd be freaking out if I was a fan of the Bulls and my team had signed Big Ben to that stupid contract they signed him to as well!

Exactly...Ben Wallace is not going to be a DPOY this year..We could have easily overpaid for Okafor. Compared to other centers in the league it is not that much. Centers are among the highest paid players in the teams.

it just seems a lot since he is the highest paid player in our team with a long term contract. Just looking at their salaries (not at their skills) you can see where Mek stands. some of the other guys are superstars and have a much higher salary. i just think mek has an average salary for a center, with goes with his skill. i dont think that we overpaid and there is still upswing with him.

mehmet otur - $8.5MM
andrew bogut - $12.59MM for six years
brad miller- $10.5MM (i think final year on his contract)

and the other end up of the scale..

jermaine o'neal - $21MM
Duncan - $20MM
Shaq - $20MM

[TattoodCats4life]

Don't forget...you and me both are thinking the FO could be looking to get out of his deal this offseason too.

Tattood not a problem. Heck, it was like 3 years following the Cats before I realized what a cap hold was. Salary and the CBA isn't a simple thing (they pay the lawyers to make it that way)

I hear you... I've been following the cats Since 07/08, so as I tell ppl, no bandwagon here, I was there for the darkest days. Wish i would have brought something big and hard to throw at Ray Allen last year...no one pissed me off more than him (and biscuit).'

Oh and more importantly, I follow NBA, WNBA and that's about it...I think I've watched 10 panthers games :) This is pretty much it, and I've never liked sports before the cats... Thanks Wallace ;)

[Mustachio]

I merged the two Felton Threads. they were both talking about not wanting to lose him.

[TattoodCats4life]

I merged the two Felton Threads. they were both talking about not wanting to lose him.

Good call.

[Chef]

we need a poll. here is the question.

Should the Cat's keep A) Ray and resign him to a lucrative multi-year deal next year
or B1) deal him before the deadline for either immediate help at 2 or 4,
or B2) salary cap space by making them take matt or nazr
or B3) a combination + high draft picks.

I choose not A.

[TattoodCats4life]

we need a poll. here is the question.

Should the Cat's keep A) Ray and resign him to a lucrative multi-year deal next year
or B1) deal him before the deadline for either immediate help at 2 or 4,
or B2) salary cap space by making them take matt or nazr
or B3) a combination + high draft picks.

I choose not A.

I say A, or B2 or B3. I want help at 2, not 4, we've got a fairly good 4, and if we can free hollins from the dark abyss of injured reserve (uninjured) he could be a good 5 for a quarter while mek shifts to the 4. But Ray is going to make another team better, no matter where he goes, be it as a solid backup or as a fairly solid starter, so that will hurt us later.

[Chef]

here is the problem with A. we have DJ and ray is not a good 2. if we re-sign ray we might as well have not drafted DJ and it looks like DJ is going to be a much more effective point guard than ray. if we lock up ray the next three seasons salary wise are gone. nazr, mek, wallace, matt all are owed decent money add in ray and we are locked out of free agency in 09, 10.

[Mustachio]

poll added.

[amour217]

This is definitely a conundrum for the Bobcats...and the bottom line is that I hope Ray continues his strong, effective play because it gives us A) a better chance to win and B) the opportunity to sell high on him.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens. Until then, keep playing your heart out, Ray

[etothet]

I am sort of torn with this situation. Ray comes to play every night. He sometimes makes bonehead decisions and does not possess a good field goal percentage, but leaves it all on the court. I've noticed his rebounds and steals seem to be the best of his career. He has been called upon sometimes to guard 2's that are bigger and stronger, but he has held his own most of the time. These are the intangibles that are hard to replace. I think the FO made a mistake with DJ. I like DJ and he is a much better shooter than Ray and may have a higher basketball IQ, but when it comes to the things Ray offers I just don't understand why we didn't draft a big at no. 9 and if you were going to draft a point, why not Mario Chalmers as our second first round pick who is somewhat different than Ray and a little bigger. DJ is smaller and very similar to Ray. DJ is not a pass first point guard. I just think DJ will have problems guarding strong point guards. His defense is suspect. At this point I guess it doesn't matter, because it is already done. I just hope if we trade Ray, that we get something worthwhile in return, because his intangibles are going to be hard to replace.

[Mustachio]

I think it blows hardcore that we are gonna leave the 05 draft with May and not Felton. might as well not even have shown up that year.

[mrtarheel]

Ray reminds me of the movie Remeber the Titans. He has the heart and soul of a rising all star but not the constant jumper. Two is better than one and I myself have though about trades with him but the intangibles outweigh alot. It all depends on what you get back. Cap space doesn't mean nothing ( because I'm not footing the bill) but winning cures all. Some team out there really needs a Nazr and a Carroll. Hell we need both of them just not at the salaries they are on. If there is a will there is a way. Wait and see what's out there, we don't have to be in a rush. If we could get Webster, Outlaw, and Frye for Felts and big contract, I would do it but who ever we get it has to be an up energy kind of guy.

[sugarfree311]

Rip Hamilton is apparently unhappy in Detroit...how about this trade:

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=556~294~2769~2753~1026&teams=8~30~30~8~23&te=&cash=

Didn't really think it out too much, just tried to figure out one where salaries worked...I'm sure those who use the trade machine more could come up with something better. Giving up Gerald and Ray may be too much, but in my 2 minutes of playing with it, it was the only way to get the salaries to work.

[TattoodCats4life]

Rip Hamilton is apparently unhappy in Detroit...how about this trade:

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=556~294~2769~2753~1026&teams=8~30~30~8~23&te=&cash= (http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=556%7E294%7E2769%7E2753%7E1026&teams=8%7E30%7E30%7E8%7E23&te=&cash=)

Didn't really think it out too much, just tried to figure out one where salaries worked...I'm sure those who use the trade machine more could come up with something better. Giving up Gerald and Ray may be too much, but in my 2 minutes of playing with it, it was the only way to get the salaries to work.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=294~2211~2753&teams=30~8~8&te=&cash= (http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=294%7E2211%7E2753&teams=30%7E8%7E8&te=&cash=)

and

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=294~2769~2992~2753~2776~3016&teams=30~30~8~8~8~8&te=&cash= (http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=294%7E2769%7E2992%7E2753%7E277 6%7E3016&teams=30%7E30%7E8%7E8%7E8%7E8&te=&cash=)

Smell pretty good...I think the pistons would like the expiring in May so that they can afford to resign AI, and im just far less than willing to give up GW..

The second one is probably most likely because everyone on there is expiring this year except ammo, who expires in time for 2010.

[Ghost Kat]

No one is doubting how hard Felton plays. The last couple games Felton has been a big part of the scoring and he did finally hit a game winner...1st this season that i know of. How many games have we complained Felton was trying to be the hero?It's like the last games have somehow wiped all that away. How long will Hero Felton really last? I can understand keeping Felton till the end of the season. But how long does LB really plan on running this two lil guard line up? LB hand picked DJ as his PG to be, DJ has shwon good signs that he'll be a better pick at 9th then Felton was at 5th. If Felton can bring in two like J-rich did that should reflect his supposed value. But i doubt he'll bring in the starter type players J-Rich did. Either way LB"s front office has shown it can improve the team.

[etothet]

I agree that if trading Raymond will make the team better, then do it. I am not so sure that DJ is that much better of a point guard. He has shown signs of brilliance and signs of being average. Raymond was the great hope in 2005. He was the rookie of month at least twice. So what we initially thought about Raymond was simply possibilities. Possibilities don't always become reality. The question becomes does DJ have the endurance, the ability to take the pounding night after night. He is an above average shooter, but can he defend. His start has been great, but how will it end. I hope things go well for him, but I would not rush to say how much better of pick he is and he has played in only 38 games. Raymond's stats for the his rookie year were 11.9ppg and 5.6 assists.