Folks may want to GIVE his job away, but....

[110oldeast]

Raymond Felton is once again playing serious basketball as a LEGIT starting POINT guard. I'll say it again. The limited amount of success this franchise has had including the few 4 game win streaks, the 5 game win streak, the 3 game road winning streak, the 13 out of 25 during the tough part of last year's schedule including 8-4 without Gerald Wallace, has come with Felton playing pg and predominantly pg. As with the other situations, it seems to have required an injury to the other main pg option (BK, now DJ) or a cut (McInnis) for the coaches to actually let him play this role. However, as before, the team results have been better.

He is controlling the game and for the first time since being in the league, he has a LEGIT PF to play with and strong coaching at the pg slot. Name one elite pg in the current NBA who has flourished without these 2. He is not a combo, 6th man, or whatever else. The kid is a pg. Is he perfect? Nope. But who on our team is? He is durable, tough, and does whatever the team needs. He is a leader and a career winner, who has often gone through adversity before winning. He is on his 5th coach in 7 years (2 college, 3 NBA) in a position that DEMANDS continuity, but you don't hear him bitch one bit or make excuses.

He may not be the guy who is getting marketed or chosen face of the franchise, but he certainly is the pg leading this team. I really hope the Cats find a way to keep him and develop him along with this group of players.

If you look at our team, there are some similarities to that 2004 Pistons team LB had. Billups was a journeyman pg who had not found his niche when LB got him and was no more successful than Felton (and more shoot first w/ no better fg%; better 3 pt shooter). Bell is similar to Rip, but a better defender. Wallace is similar to Tayshaun (not quite as good an outside shooter), while being more explosive, even if not quite the same individual defender. Diaw has a different game than Wallace, but is a mismatch for many and was in need of a fresh start as Wallace was. With DJ back, you have a solid bench behind this set of starters (DJ, Shannon, Ammo, Juwan, Diop). While I am not anywhere near saying we are going for a title, I do feel we have something we could build off of without making any silly trades.

Something to think about, IMO.

[teej]

Raymond Felton is once again playing serious basketball as a LEGIT starting POINT guard. I'll say it again. The limited amount of success this franchise has had including the few 4 game win streaks, the 5 game win streak, the 3 game road winning streak, the 13 out of 25 during the tough part of last year's schedule including 8-4 without Gerald Wallace, has come with Felton playing pg and predominantly pg. As with the other situations, it seems to have required an injury to the other main pg option (BK, now DJ) or a cut (McInnis) for the coaches to actually let him play this role. However, as before, the team results have been better.

He is controlling the game and for the first time since being in the league, he has a LEGIT PF to play with and strong coaching at the pg slot. Name one elite pg in the current NBA who has flourished without these 2. He is not a combo, 6th man, or whatever else. The kid is a pg. Is he perfect? Nope. But who on our team is? He is durable, tough, and does whatever the team needs. He is a leader and a career winner, who has often gone through adversity before winning. He is on his 5th coach in 7 years (2 college, 3 NBA) in a position that DEMANDS continuity, but you don't hear him bitch one bit or make excuses.

He may not be the guy who is getting marketed or chosen face of the franchise, but he certainly is the pg leading this team. I really hope the Cats find a way to keep him and develop him along with this group of players.

If you look at our team, there are some similarities to that 2004 Pistons team LB had. Billups was a journeyman pg who had not found his niche when LB got him and was no more successful than Felton (and more shoot first w/ no better fg%; better 3 pt shooter). Bell is similar to Rip, but a better defender. Wallace is similar to Tayshaun (not quite as good an outside shooter), while being more explosive, even if not quite the same individual defender. Diaw has a different game than Wallace, but is a mismatch for many and was in need of a fresh start as Wallace was. With DJ back, you have a solid bench behind this set of starters (DJ, Shannon, Ammo, Juwan, Diop). While I am not anywhere near saying we are going for a title, I do feel we have something we could build off of without making any silly trades.

Something to think about, IMO.

Very, very good points.

But with LB I think he wants Crash to get more outside touch, modle himself after Tayshaun, and that will keep him healthy...if it works, LB is a genius, if not, GW could face the same fate as JRICH...jmho and i could be totally wrong....it happens a lot :)

[110oldeast]

I think Gerald has made shooting strides since he joined the Cats. I think he should continue to be agressive, but mastering that Corner shot a la Bruce Bowen would work wonders for him and the team.

[teej]

Well he has improved at least in my eyes, IDK about stats, with the corner shot since LB arrived...he can hit the corner and Diaw the straight up 3

[110oldeast]

Yep and it makes this team really tough to guard. This starting lineup is EASILY the most balanced lineup the Bobcats have put on the floor offensively AND defensively. They are above average at all 5 spots on both ends of the floor. Despite liking Felton, I had moved into the camp of him being moved for financial purposes and for change of scenery purposes (for him considering backlash he receives), but I think that would be silly unless your SOLE goal is creating cap space. It's one thing if you have KNOWN commodities to pull it off. But in reality, the Cats don't. They have young potential at pg in DJ and Singletary, but at this point, that is it.

This team is rolling right now and DEPTH, specifically at pg is the only thing that has hurt them (cost them the Indy game despite the rebounding and FT situation). To me, it would make more sense to have DJ come back and be the straight up back up to Felton (unless you want the short stints of 2 guard offense with DJ off the ball as the shooter) than to blindly put faith in him being able to handle the grind of the NBA and heavy minutes that he might have to play as Bobcats pg.

[teej]

Yep and it makes this team really tough to guard. This starting lineup is EASILY the most balanced lineup the Bobcats have put on the floor offensively AND defensively. They are above average at all 5 spots on both ends of the floor. Despite liking Felton, I had moved into the camp of him being moved for financial purposes and for change of scenery purposes (for him considering backlash he receives), but I think that would be silly unless your SOLE goal is creating cap space. It's one thing if you have KNOWN commodities to pull it off. But in reality, the Cats don't. They have young potential at pg in DJ and Singletary, but at this point, that is it.

This team is rolling right now and DEPTH, specifically at pg is the only thing that has hurt them (cost them the Indy game despite the rebounding and FT situation). To me, it would make more sense to have DJ come back and be the straight up back up to Felton (unless you want the short stints of 2 guard offense with DJ off the ball as the shooter) than to blindly put faith in him being able to handle the grind of the NBA and heavy minutes that he might have to play as Bobcats pg.

Exactly...the only trades with Ray in them that I would do are ones that bring back someone at the point a la Steve Blake or Jordan Farmar

Raymond also brings "The Presence" much like Juwan and Gerald, you know they will get after it all night until htey drop - sometimes literally

As long as his agent isnt like Scott Boras in baseball, we should resign him and let him and dj split time and run a 2 pg system at sometimes spelling raja

jmho

[110oldeast]

Well said. I agree.

[bobcats_express]

Felton is a fantastic player.

We should all hope he stays with us

[Chef]

the serious question is still this...If we don't trade Ray we need to decide what to do come contract time. If we commit to Ray 5 or 6 years 5+ mil per he is not tradeable for at least 3 years, thus impeding the development of DJ for 3-5 years. If we do this we are basically saying we wasted the #8 pick in a very talented draft. I am love Ray's game now that LB has given him rules and he plays with discipline. I think he is a fine point guard, so what do we do with either Ray or DJ?

[TattoodCats4life]

Felton is a fantastic player, playing in a "contract year." I don't know if we're going to resign him, and the team has a few more weeks to figure out what they want to do with the deadline situation.

I think of it like this: Excellent PGs in this league make 10+mil, Great-almost-excellent PGs make 8-9mil/year. Felton is in that Great-almost-excellent class in this good games, and even on a rough night he still plays. DJ im sure is Great, almost "great-almost-excellent" which i figure by end of the year he'll be. DJ is on rookie scale, so cheap now, but lets say we sign felton to a nice 7 mil escalating contract and when DJ is ready for resigning we can sign him to something similar. I'd much rather our team spend our "point guard money" on 2 great-almost-excellent pgs instead of 1 super duper point guard and 2 "junk" point guards. It helps is be a deeper team. I mean we'll never be the lakers, their entire second unit could start anywhere else, but if we have a second unit with at least some "starter quality" guys we'll be killer.

[110oldeast]

My only question is why does it take this franchise injuries (BK and now DJ) or cutting of a player (McInnis) to see the team continually be more successful with Felton playing PG?

My problem is that the Bobcats MADE him into a combo (to be loyal to BK), playing him at much 2 as they did and then talked out of both sides of their mouths calling him shoot first. Well, guess what? You can't play a guy at 2 g and then expect him to be shoot first, although Felton was more pass first as a 2g than 99% of 2gs out there averaging 6-7 assists when he did it. Rick Bonnell forcefed the shoot first critique of Felton while labeling Augustin pass first out of college when all the scouting reports labeled Felton one of the few true pass first pgs and to a much greater extent than DJ. Having watched Felton since HS, I can say that he likes to score, but he LOVES to pass when folks finish plays.

The reality is now that the team has parts who can properly SPREAD the floor and take advantage of his penetrating and playmaking skills (only took 3+ years). The ability of Diaw to pull that 2nd big guy away from the basket as well as pick and pop gives Felton something that the only pgs (Paul/West, Williams/Okur/Boozer, Nash Stoudemire, Kidd/Dirk, Calderon/Bosh) who averaged as many or more assists per game than him in the 2nd half of last year when he moved to pg predominantly already had.

You won't get him for 5 million a year, but you do try to sign him back. The guy has shown repeatedly when given the chance to be what he is, a pg, that he and the team can be successful. And that is without having a level of coaching like he will currently receive. You can bank on an unknown quantity surpassing that in Augustin, but it is a roll of the dice.

You don't have to choose b/w the 2 as Augustin is locked in at his contract. Furthermore, just b/c he was the 9th pick doesn't mean he has to start (Felton was the 5th, the team won more when he was predominantly pg and he still didn't start at pg). Matt Leinhart is holding the clipboard for Kurt Warner right now despite the fact that they tried to hand him the job, b/c Kurt is making the team go. I have not seen that Augustin will be a better starting pg than Felton yet (outside of 3 pt shooting), but he has shown to be a better backup than Singletary.

In other words, getting rid of Felton for the "hope" of Augustin is automatically downgrading your pg position. You are not clearly (if at all) getting better in starting, but are clearly getting worse on the bench (not a shot at Sean). Right now Felton has been playing MARATHON minutes, b/c the team NEEDS him to. The couple of stints where he wasn't on the floor against Indy was where they made the runs to beat us. He sat out a total of FIVE (5) minutes in a 58 minutes 2 OT game yesterday, b/c they needed him out there. Is that the situation you are planning to bring DJ who is still young and has had a few flashes, as well as injuries back into?

If you are predominantly trying to clean up cap, I say yes. If you are trying to win this year as well as build, I say no. But this is JMHO.

[110oldeast]

An ideal scenario.


Felton is a fantastic player, playing in a "contract year." I don't know if we're going to resign him, and the team has a few more weeks to figure out what they want to do with the deadline situation.

I think of it like this: Excellent PGs in this league make 10+mil, Great-almost-excellent PGs make 8-9mil/year. Felton is in that Great-almost-excellent class in this good games, and even on a rough night he still plays. DJ im sure is Great, almost "great-almost-excellent" which i figure by end of the year he'll be. DJ is on rookie scale, so cheap now, but lets say we sign felton to a nice 7 mil escalating contract and when DJ is ready for resigning we can sign him to something similar. I'd much rather our team spend our "point guard money" on 2 great-almost-excellent pgs instead of 1 super duper point guard and 2 "junk" point guards. It helps is be a deeper team. I mean we'll never be the lakers, their entire second unit could start anywhere else, but if we have a second unit with at least some "starter quality" guys we'll be killer.

[GoBobs]

Well I suggested we sign him last summer but nobody liked the idea. The number that hits me is 5 yrs 40 mil. I would like to get him for less but I think that is fair and I think Felton will give us the home town discount if anyone will.

Last year you could count on Felts to go somewhere between 2-10 and 4-10. This year his shooting is a lot better. He getting much better shots. More of his jumpers are coming on assisted set shots than off the dribble. Now he is starting to have games where he goes 8-16 or 7-12 and his conficence is only growing. Soon he learn how to get the eye of the tiger and he will start having game where he goes like 9-9 or 11-13.

He has always had great intangables: defends well, chases down lots of loose balls, can get a shot at any time but with maturity and confidence he can truly be somthing special.

[kickazzz2000]

I almost cried when he hit that floater over Bynum.

[davcbow]

Felts is playing some good BB right now, I hope there is a way we will be able to keep him...:cool:

[spectre]

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/raymond_felton/season_splits.html

He's averaging 15 ppg on 44%, 34% from 3. 88% from the line, 8 assists, 4 rebounds in the last 10 games.

That's pretty darn impressive.

[teej]

well his stats went down after tonight, but he is still a great player, and after playing 53 minutes the night before, he really did well...even if I am biased :p

[TheBeagle]

Absolutely. Raymond's playing some special ball over the last month plus. Very happy; not just for us fans, but for him as well. Nobody wants to succeed and improve more than him, and it's great to see it paying off more often than not this year.

We could do so much worse than have Raymond as our 1.

I'm in favor of signing him to a one year deal during the next season, or working a sign and trade if he has greener pastures elsewhere. I don't think we'll get value for him this year....but who knows...

I will say, when/if he leaves, that will be a sad day for me, as he is one of the true good guys in the league (along with a bunch of our Cats!!) Just a really special guy.

[teej]

I will say, when/if he leaves, that will be a sad day for me, as he is one of the true good guys in the league (along with a bunch of our Cats!!) Just a really special guy.

With the exceptions of May and AmMo, there isn't a guy on this time I wouldnt mind as a piece on my team...but I would even take on AmMo as a project

[dvdbumpus]

Well,

He's a restricted FA so we'll likely sign him for the next year then he will be an unrestricted FA. From there we'll likely look into trading him next year before the trade deadline, depending on DJ's contract. We've gotta focus on Okafor's contract as well.....

[Ghost Kat]

I guess it's time for me to hate, But let me point out Felton is still shooting with the same old patterns. Last 5 games 7-13 ,5-14 , 4-11 , 8-17, 3-11. Has he really been playing better or has he just hit some big shots lately?
I'll keep my same argument, It's very expensive to resign Felton to a long term contract. With DJ being hurt it's hard to make a good argument for him but it's clear the FO has fallen in love with him as the future PG. Felton if he's smart won't sign a 1yr deal with us since that still leaves him on the chopping block cuz of his contract. So Felton is here for this year, But it doesn't make alot of sense for him to be back next year. He has value so he can bring in a couple guys LB wants in a trade. Packing him with Morrison could bring in some productive bench people finally.

[TattoodCatswife]

I guess it's time for me to hate, But let me point out Felton is still shooting with the same old patterns. Last 5 games 7-13 ,5-14 , 4-11 , 8-17, 3-11. Has he really been playing better or has he just hit some big shots lately?
I'll keep my same argument, It's very expensive to resign Felton to a long term contract. With DJ being hurt it's hard to make a good argument for him but it's clear the FO has fallen in love with him as the future PG. Felton if he's smart won't sign a 1yr deal with us since that still leaves him on the chopping block cuz of his contract. So Felton is here for this year, But it doesn't make alot of sense for him to be back next year. He has value so he can bring in a couple guys LB wants in a trade. Packing him with Morrison could bring in some productive bench people finally.

Packing him with Morrison definitely could bring in some quality bench players.

[spectre]

Packing him with Morrison definitely could bring in some quality bench players.

Actually I think we'd get more value if he wasn't included. Right now he's a negative more than a positive...mainly because of that 5.26 million we stupidly decided to give him for next year.

BTW...signing a 1 year deal would be a hugely smart move by Felton if he's about the money...that would make him a FA in '10 when everyone has cap, and I strongly suspect not so many premier FAs as everyone is thinking now.

[110oldeast]

Of course it's time for you to hate. That's what you do with Felton. That's why you sat back until the second half of a back to back where he played 53 minutes, b/c they lost ground whenever he came out, the night before to post. If a guy plays 53/58 minutes in a win he's gotta be doing something right.

Keep summing him totally to fg percentage. THAT MAKES SOOOOOO much since to sum your pg up by. Hate to break it to you, be his not Ammo or Carroll. You are evaluating a pg who provides a lot of different things to the table as a guy whose sole purpose is shooting the basketball. There's much more to his game than fg percentage. And no this isn't the first stretch of ball he's hit big shots, even if it is the first that anybody has had to acknowledge it. The guy is a key component of our success and has been when we have had it whether you wanna admit it or not. I have broken down examples of how this has happened the past few years as well as this one. Ignore it if you choose, but the point still stands.

Furthermore, keep acting like the only games that count are the ones where the people you prefer are healthy. That's what Bobcats folks do. You don't take into account whether a guy can play 80 games a season or not. Who cares that DJ didn't play these last 8 or 9 games, right? They don't count. Without Felton in them and a 2g or whatever we get out of the trade we would have won them, right? I have never seen folks factor in missed games by players when evaluating value as much as folks do in this franchise. They are always talking about how they are effected by injury but never factor that in when they are handing over contracts and the reigns to the team.

The game he shot 4-11 included a 3/4 court shot, a 3 pter where Diaw threw it to him with 1 second on the clock and a desparation shot at then end. He also had 12 assists to 2 TOs that game and the team only lost ground we had was when his back up was in which is why he kept having to be on the floor. The game he was 5-14 for, he defended Nash and Barbosa into a 2-12 game with 8 TOs in a blowout win while controlling the ball himself and only having 2 TOs.

Since DJ went down including last night, he's averaged:

14.2 pts 8.4 assists 2.92 a/t ratio 41% fg (Assists and A/t ratio would be both be 5th in the league)

Despite a consistent bench, the team is 6-3 (3-2 on the road) and competive in 8 of 9 games. He's also played some solid defense as well.

That said, there is much more to a pg than stats. Helping orchestrate wins w/o a backup is a should give some credibility, but then again so should have the way he and the team finished last year during the constantly predicted toughest part of the season last year, including the 8-4 without Gerald Wallace.

Quiz--Who's stats are these:

16.9 pts 5.7 assists 2.36 a/t 39%fg


I guess it's time for me to hate, But let me point out Felton is still shooting with the same old patterns. Last 5 games 7-13 ,5-14 , 4-11 , 8-17, 3-11. Has he really been playing better or has he just hit some big shots lately?
I'll keep my same argument, It's very expensive to resign Felton to a long term contract. With DJ being hurt it's hard to make a good argument for him but it's clear the FO has fallen in love with him as the future PG. Felton if he's smart won't sign a 1yr deal with us since that still leaves him on the chopping block cuz of his contract. So Felton is here for this year, But it doesn't make alot of sense for him to be back next year. He has value so he can bring in a couple guys LB wants in a trade. Packing him with Morrison could bring in some productive bench people finally.

[Ghost Kat]

Your are too funny. You defend him like i'm going after your baby daddy everytime I talk about Felton. Like I said in another post we went other this in the summer and yes being able to shot a basketball is still on my Must Have Basketball Skills list. U try hard to point out that i talk about his shooting %, Then point out he add's "so much else" I never said he didn't. But you ingore that every single time. BTW who are "bobcats folk"?
I truely don't understand how you got any of that you just said about DJ and the games not counting. It should matter that he hasn't play'd. Aren't you all about team? Shouldn't i want all the players to be healthy and produce? Oh, I didnt just decide now to post about Felton since he play'd bad in the portland game, Thats silly, really silly, But you said it. All that you typed and you still didn't say anything about what i said. What we going to do with him next year? Toss out some stats for that. Tell me why the FO seems so in love with DJ Augustin and his future but so ready to trade Felton. Tell me why LB drafted DJ already knowing Felton was there. Give me some stats telling me how many times We've already talked about this.

[dnbman]

Tell me why the FO seems so in love with DJ Augustin and his future but so ready to trade Felton. Tell me why LB drafted DJ already knowing Felton was there. Give me some stats telling me how many times We've already talked about this.

Ultimately, loving a guy has nothing to do with whether he'll pan out. Regardless of this alleged love, we have a pg who is making us competitive with the best teams in the NBA (obviously, along with great play by his teammates.) Is it wise to trade him without being sure that your rookie is going to be the real deal.

Augustine is impressive, but Felton is playing great now that he has a complete starting line-up. I don't need the guy to shoot 50%. I'd be more than happy for him to be a 41-42% fg shooter if he's making great plays on both ends of the court.

He's still learning, but he's starting to blossom with a true line-up to work with.

[Ghost Kat]

Ultimately, loving a guy has nothing to do with whether he'll pan out. Regardless of this alleged love, we have a pg who is making us competitive with the best teams in the NBA (obviously, along with great play by his teammates.) Is it wise to trade him without being sure that your rookie is going to be the real deal.

Augustine is impressive, but Felton is playing great now that he has a complete starting line-up. I don't need the guy to shoot 50%. I'd be more than happy for him to be a 41-42% fg shooter if he's making great plays on both ends of the court.

He's still learning, but he's starting to blossom with a true line-up to work with.

Agreed, I haven't said anything about getting rid of him this year unless he brings someone big in. But the next season will be here before we know it. I can't honestly see the Bobcats resigning Felton to a long term type deal when they have been tryin so hard to shop him. As you said Augustin is impressive But Felton is playin great NOW. This is nothing new in Felton's career. I've never made my whole argument on Felton about his shooting and I've given him credit for the good things he does, Ignored or not. We are in the middle of the season, lets not try to paint Felton into this just now awaking star.

About the alleged love: Ok, maybe they don't LOVE him, I'm just going off how they have marketed him to the public so far. I think Jordan added him to his ALL- Jordan team that plays in the summer. LB lobbied to draft him with the 9th pick. From a fan stand point it seems like they are grooming DJ to take over.

[Ghost Kat]

BTW...signing a 1 year deal would be a hugely smart move by Felton if he's about the money...that would make him a FA in '10 when everyone has cap, and I strongly suspect not so many premier FAs as everyone is thinking now.

I just think if he signs a 1yr that makes him even more likely to be trade bait next year. If he does sign a 1 yr you think He'd finish out the whole year with the Cat's? I think if we get in the situation we're in now He'd be the 1st name on the chopping block since he does just have a 1yr & player value. "10 does open cap room for alot of teams which opens a big pay day for Felton, I just don't think he would stay with the Cat's the whole year.

[SWedd523]

I'm going to defend Felton until the end of the day. There is no doubt that the weakest part of his game is his shooting so trying to argue that he's a good shooter is pointless.

On the other hand, I remember when somebody posted a set of his stats that showed his production drops off on the second part of a back to back. So it was to be expected that he wasn't going to perform too well last night, especially with him coming off playing about 50 minutes the night before in double overtime against a top 3 team in the League.

With some rest, he'll go back to playing well.

[110oldeast]

I'm glad I amuse you. BTW, those numbers with the 39% fg shooting came from Chauncey Billups during the year Detroit won the NBA title.

My problem with the way you post about Felton is that you CONSTANTLY give backhanded compliments and only try to pull apart the one guy on this team has gone night in and night out for the last 4 years. My problem is the simplistic scapegoating of Felton that passes as basketball acumen on this board while never giving legit acknowledgement for what he does bring to the table and his impact on the team's success. If someone constantly talked only about the negatives of Gerald Wallace (your clear favorite on the team), I'm pretty sure you would defend him as well.

Yes Augustin has been marketed at a ridiculous level by this franchise, especially relative to what has occurred on the floor. Commercials and commentary don't win games however. At some point before drawing up contracts and extending players, you'd think the FO would start factoring in ability to play night in and night out with productivity, stamina and durability. Then again who knows?

I think that durability (especially if you look at how many games Bobcats starters historically play) and productivity should be relevant parts of the picture. Felton has brought both of those in his time as a Bobcats including THIS YEAR. To just drop him based on "hope" makes little sense. If the FO does that, it's their call. It would be misguided IMO however. I say that as a native Charlottean who cares about this team.

And yes I will pick apart a post that discusses a pg's play and ONLY mentions fg shooting. It is "A" basketball skill, but not the sole basketball skill, especially when discussing pgs. Don't say "I didn't say he didn't do other things" when all you were trying to say is he is not playing any better. And for the record, you mentioned nothing of anything else he did.

That said, I agree that he's not playing extraordinarily better. He has played well at pg and the team has been successful (the ULTIMATE measure of the pg) before in his time here which is the point I was making. For some reason, this franchise has wasted multiple years trying to mold him into a combo guard. It always takes an injury or something for him to play predominantly pg and then we have a good stretch of winning and then we go back to square 1. It's amazing what happens when have a unit who can spread the floor and a versatile PF, something the FO continually kept waiting for May to become, despite constant injuries.

I am about the team. I am about the success of the team (all of its members). Unlike you, I have never mentioned "hating" a player (Felton). As a TEAM fan, I realize that basketball goes beyond fantasy stats. When Felton hits a clutch shot late in a game against Portland to tie it, I'm not calling it "lucky." That's why I mentioned TEAM stats such as WINNING numbers. And guess what, your players need to be in the games to consistently do this. This is a reason why I would sign him to a long term contract if possible.

If the FO hasn't figured this out by now (again, check the number of missed games by starters and main rotation players in Bobcats history), I guess they will never learn.

BTW, the FO was most ready to trade Gerald Wallace (the player who you've said is most indispensable and most productive on both ends), but his contract made it a lot more difficult. So, it's not just about individual players and Felton being someone they're trying to get rid of. This has as much to do with money as anything. I think if you can get Felton at 7-8 mil/yr long-term, you do it.


Your are too funny. You defend him like i'm going after your baby daddy everytime I talk about Felton. Like I said in another post we went other this in the summer and yes being able to shot a basketball is still on my Must Have Basketball Skills list. U try hard to point out that i talk about his shooting %, Then point out he add's "so much else" I never said he didn't. But you ingore that every single time. BTW who are "bobcats folk"?
I truely don't understand how you got any of that you just said about DJ and the games not counting. It should matter that he hasn't play'd. Aren't you all about team? Shouldn't i want all the players to be healthy and produce? Oh, I didnt just decide now to post about Felton since he play'd bad in the portland game, Thats silly, really silly, But you said it. All that you typed and you still didn't say anything about what i said. What we going to do with him next year? Toss out some stats for that. Tell me why the FO seems so in love with DJ Augustin and his future but so ready to trade Felton. Tell me why LB drafted DJ already knowing Felton was there. Give me some stats telling me how many times We've already talked about this.

[110oldeast]

Good post dnb.


Ultimately, loving a guy has nothing to do with whether he'll pan out. Regardless of this alleged love, we have a pg who is making us competitive with the best teams in the NBA (obviously, along with great play by his teammates.) Is it wise to trade him without being sure that your rookie is going to be the real deal.

Augustine is impressive, but Felton is playing great now that he has a complete starting line-up. I don't need the guy to shoot 50%. I'd be more than happy for him to be a 41-42% fg shooter if he's making great plays on both ends of the court.

He's still learning, but he's starting to blossom with a true line-up to work with.

[spectre]

I just think if he signs a 1yr that makes him even more likely to be trade bait next year. If he does sign a 1 yr you think He'd finish out the whole year with the Cat's? I think if we get in the situation we're in now He'd be the 1st name on the chopping block since he does just have a 1yr & player value. "10 does open cap room for alot of teams which opens a big pay day for Felton, I just don't think he would stay with the Cat's the whole year.

If he signs a one year deal I'm assuming that will be the qualifying offer...which would make him just like Ben Gordon this year. He would have to approve the trade AND he would lose his Bird Rights.

In other words we couldn't trade him. If we went that route then most likely the intent would be either to re-sign him or let him walk. We went a similar route with Crash & Mek, but with Crash it was a 3 yr with the 3rd being a player option...essentially making it a 2 yr deal.

[etothet]

I like this kid DJ a lot, but the FO might better look at that point guard position carefully. He may be the poster boy, but games are won in the trenches. Games are won on the defensive end. Raymond may not be the better shooter, but he comes to play every night. I think the heavy minutes sometimes hinder his efficiency. He is 8th among guards in minutes played in the NBA. He rebounds, he steals, he is ranked 13th in league in assists, and I am seeing him make better decisions. I wish Larry Brown had been in Charlotte in 05. A lot of people question whether Felton is the fit for the Bobcats, but I'll say this, DJ has not proved himself to be the point guard of the future. Defending bigger 1's is a problem for DJ and durability could be a problem as well. Can he take the pounding night in and night out? I know Raymond can. The bottom line becomes what lineup gets you the most wins and what's best for the team.

[davcbow]

One thing I like about Ray is that he hardly ever gets hurt.... :cool:

[Muttley]

One thing I like about Ray is that he hardly ever gets hurt.... :cool:

Even when he is hurt, it doesn't stop him!

[davcbow]

Even when he is hurt, it doesn't stop him!

Thats a fact, I think we should try our best to keep Ray weather he starts or not...:cool:

[Ghost Kat]

I'm glad I amuse you. BTW, those numbers with the 39% fg shooting came from Chauncey Billups during the year Detroit won the NBA title.

My problem with the way you post about Felton is that you CONSTANTLY give backhanded compliments and only try to pull apart the one guy on this team has gone night in and night out for the last 4 years. My problem is the simplistic scapegoating of Felton that passes as basketball acumen on this board while never giving legit acknowledgement for what he does bring to the table and his impact on the team's success. If someone constantly talked only about the negatives of Gerald Wallace (your clear favorite on the team), I'm pretty sure you would defend him as well.

Yes Augustin has been marketed at a ridiculous level by this franchise, especially relative to what has occurred on the floor. Commercials and commentary don't win games however. At some point before drawing up contracts and extending players, you'd think the FO would start factoring in ability to play night in and night out with productivity, stamina and durability. Then again who knows?

I think that durability (especially if you look at how many games Bobcats starters historically play) and productivity should be relevant parts of the picture. Felton has brought both of those in his time as a Bobcats including THIS YEAR. To just drop him based on "hope" makes little sense. If the FO does that, it's their call. It would be misguided IMO however. I say that as a native Charlottean who cares about this team.

And yes I will pick apart a post that discusses a pg's play and ONLY mentions fg shooting. It is "A" basketball skill, but not the sole basketball skill, especially when discussing pgs. Don't say "I didn't say he didn't do other things" when all you were trying to say is he is not playing any better. And for the record, you mentioned nothing of anything else he did.

That said, I agree that he's not playing extraordinarily better. He has played well at pg and the team has been successful (the ULTIMATE measure of the pg) before in his time here which is the point I was making. For some reason, this franchise has wasted multiple years trying to mold him into a combo guard. It always takes an injury or something for him to play predominantly pg and then we have a good stretch of winning and then we go back to square 1. It's amazing what happens when have a unit who can spread the floor and a versatile PF, something the FO continually kept waiting for May to become, despite constant injuries.

I am about the team. I am about the success of the team (all of its members). Unlike you, I have never mentioned "hating" a player (Felton). As a TEAM fan, I realize that basketball goes beyond fantasy stats. When Felton hits a clutch shot late in a game against Portland to tie it, I'm not calling it "lucky." That's why I mentioned TEAM stats such as WINNING numbers. And guess what, your players need to be in the games to consistently do this. This is a reason why I would sign him to a long term contract if possible.

If the FO hasn't figured this out by now (again, check the number of missed games by starters and main rotation players in Bobcats history), I guess they will never learn.

BTW, the FO was most ready to trade Gerald Wallace (the player who you've said is most indispensable and most productive on both ends), but his contract made it a lot more difficult. So, it's not just about individual players and Felton being someone they're trying to get rid of. This has as much to do with money as anything. I think if you can get Felton at 7-8 mil/yr long-term, you do it.

I typed this long response to this and then went back and deleted it. I'll keep it simple. U clearly only read the posts i make about Felton if you assume I only talk about him and no one else. Plus you clearly didn't read it very well since when you respond it usually has nothing to do with what i just said. Reguardless if I "hate" Felton or not, You don't know what i do when game day comes. U don't know who i cheer for and you don't know how loyal I am. So stop assuming you know something about me when you read some hate mail i post about Felton. Don't question my team pride, Just cuz i talk about one of the players means nothing. Stop trying to make it seem like all i do is talk about how badly Felton shoots. I've posted plenty other things other then just his shooting %. You can't pick and choose from what I say to make a argument. Can't say i don't give Felton credit for the good things he does, I clearly have. Why shouldn't i post the negative, people like you always follow me up with the positive. So atleast the people that read this get both sides. As fans we have ever right to like or dislike Felton, Just becuase your are clearly a Felton fans doesn't mean you magically somehow have a better BBall IQ the the rest of us. Noboby scapegoats Felton, thats silly. Even though Felton might be playin good now he sure hasn't been doing that the whole year, Co-captain that he is. So any blame thrown his way was probably deserved.

Yes, IMO Gerald is the most indispensable and most productive on both ends. That also makes him the most likely to be traded since it's not like We had alot of people others teams would actually want.

[rich4114]

I think it's only right if my first post ever on this site is a Felton thread.

I don't even know why we bother continuing to talk about this. I've come to realize the only people in the world who hold things against Felton as hard as they do are the few people on some of these message boards. I don't like Felton for the hell of it, I want him on this team running the point because like the opening poster said, we're successful when he's in that position.

If the biggest downfall is his poor shooting %... then why the hell would you make him a shooting guard? DJ is a better shooter, but he's not better at anything else. Maybe we should think about making DJ the SG if we need to keep both on the court.

We could always trade Felton or let him walk and then see if DJ can at least match his production at FT PG. I personally would rather not take that risk. We've been misusing Felton since he got here and it's led to less success than we could've had as a team. That's what pisses me off. I like winning and I hate losing, and in my opinion Felton as our primary, full time PG gives us the best shot.

[Ghost Kat]

I think it's only right if my first post ever on this site is a Felton thread.

I don't even know why we bother continuing to talk about this. I've come to realize the only people in the world who hold things against Felton as hard as they do are the few people on some of these message boards. I don't like Felton for the hell of it, I want him on this team running the point because like the opening poster said, we're successful when he's in that position.

If the biggest downfall is his poor shooting %... then why the hell would you make him a shooting guard? DJ is a better shooter, but he's not better at anything else. Maybe we should think about making DJ the SG if we need to keep both on the court.


I guess I'll be the first to Welcome you to Bobcatsplanet,

We could always trade Felton or let him walk and then see if DJ can at least match his production at FT PG. I personally would rather not take that risk. We've been misusing Felton since he got here and it's led to less success than we could've had as a team. That's what pisses me off. I like winning and I hate losing, and in my opinion Felton as our primary, full time PG gives us the best shot.


I guess I'll be the first to Welcome you to Bobcatsplanet,
But saying Felton is our primary Full time PG is kinda an understatement. Who else is there to plug in? He's been the Full time PG, He is a starter and Co- Captian isn't he? I clearly am the only one that thinks this but Felton hasn't been missused. He's a guard and he was still playing in that postition. Misusing him would be putting him at SF or Center something he clearly couldn't do. PG and SG's have the same basic role. Ball control and backcourt defense. When Felton and DJ were on the court Felton was listed at SG, didn't seem to hurt his assist numbers any. I'm pretty sure it was the same when Mcinnis was here. Just cuz your listed at SG doesn't make a natural PG less effective.

[TattoodCats4life]

Even when he is hurt, it doesn't stop him!

I was going to say the same thing... He gets hurt, takes a percocet, tapes it up and goes back out (ie the game a few days go when he sprained his ankle).

[SirBobcat]

Mr. Felton is one tough hombre!

[110oldeast]

Kat,

It's all good man. You and I see basketball in different terms. If you feel that shooting guard and point guard are not far apart, that explains why we can't find that much middle ground. IMO and my personal experience of playing basketball, as well as LB's system there are 4 positions on a basketball court that can be interchangeable. They are SG/SF and PF/C. PG stands on its on and is completely different from the other 4. Calling SG and PG interchangeable b/c they are both "guards" is the equivalent of calling QB and RB interchangeable b/c they are both in the football backfield. Felton has been misdeveloped since being here, but that's neither here nor there. The point is whether you continue that. The point is whether you keep signing back, extending players and giving preference to players with injury histories over those who are on the floor night in and night out. This last point is one this franchise has set itself back on on a CONTINUAL BASIS.

The reason why NBA teams don't like Gerald's contract is not because he isn't the best stat stuffer on the team (not that Hollinger ratings = wins). It's b/c of the high risk in knowing how many games they will have him for during the year. This team has been hurt by injury at a ridiculous rate since its inception. But at some point, you have to look in the mirror. If you can count on Gerald for 75-80 games a year then 9.5 mill a year is a bargain for him. Unfortunately (and NO I am not even close to blaming him for it, especially with the last play), that has not been the case. And with his style of play, to keep acting like it is a fluke, is naive and bad business. Losing 10 mill a year and a starter for double digit games every year is tough for a team to absord on a continual basis.

However, this comes from the same franchise who continued to be too loyal to Brevin Knight as starting pg despite durability issues and the team having greater success when he played secondary minutes. It's also the same franchise who has continued to re-up Sean May and not getting another PF (3+ years) despite the guy showing ZERO signs of ever completing 2/3 an NBA season let alone a complete one. This is the same franchise that re-ups Ammo for an extra year despite not knowing how he will recover from his knee surgery and not being sure about how he was panning out before that. This is the same franchise that signs Mek to 6 years 72 mill despite his only complete season being his contract year (not arguing against it, just showing a pattern). So color me a little shellshocked when I am hearing about the FO being in love with a guy who has showed a few flashes, but has not yet showed himself to be a guy who can go night in and night out while trying to ship out the one guy who has shown up almost every night for the last 4 years.

It's almost like as a Bobcat, the idea of what one might do holds a lot more weight than what one actually does.

My point is if you ship out Felton and hand the reigns to DJ now and he has issues with injuries (I pray to goodness this is not the case), don't throw that out as an excuse down the road. I don't wanna hear about how many lineups the team has had to use when some of the situations are self-inflicted. Dan Morgan was one of the best LBs in Panthers history WHEN HE PLAYED. Unfortunately, John Fox and Hurney were forced to accept that this aforementioned clause didn't matter when they were facing other team's main units and he was on the sideline hurt. I loved Morgan, but I wanted him gone. Heck, I loved Sean May's potential at one time, but I wanted him gone or at least insurance for him a while back. So this isn't about emotional loyalty to one guy, as you imply. It is about loyalty to the franchise.

At some point the Bobcats need to realize this isn't NBA2k9. You can't take the injury settings off.

[Jeff41]

I've always liked Felton from day 1 and it's been obvious he's been misused from the start until Larry got here. We're starting to see what he's capable of now that we have a decent coach. He's not Chris Paul, nope, but Felton is a damn good basketball player.

[BobCatsFanInTx]

Right now everything is sunshine and daisies between Raymond and DJ but if you think that next year either of these guys is going to accept coming off the bench for any long stretch of time you have another thing coming.

I am a fan of Raymond but the reality is that he is not going to get a long term contract next season. DJ was drafted as the heir apparent and he will most likely be our full time starter sometime next season. As much as I love Raymond and what he has given once he has been used a a true starting pg, I doubt he figures into the teams long term plans.

Felton has been playing well and I look for him to be traded while his trade value is high. Sometime next season he WILL be traded imho.

[spectre]

Right now everything is sunshine and daisies between Raymond and DJ but if you think that next year either of these guys is going to accept coming off the bench for any long stretch of time you have another thing coming.

DJ has to prove he can be the starter first. Up til this point he hasn't done that yet.

When we drafted Ammo 3rd overall people opined that this meant the end of Crash.

Oops.

[SirBobcat]

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=250~2776~3016&teams=30~11~11&te=&cash=

I like this one.

[110oldeast]

Sean May was also drafted to be the team's PF and marketed for UNC appeal. Adam Morrison was drafted #3 overall and was marketed for "Stache" appeal. Gerald Wallace has been signed as the face of the franchise and is known for his exciting plays.

As for things being sunshine and daisies, that's the coaches job to manage. And if he is a respected coach and cannot do it, somebody does have to go. In Raymond's case, he actually outplayed his predecessors (McInnis and BK) and led the team to greater team success at pg and still played SG. He kept his mouth shut and did his job. DJ hasn't done anything on the court to supplant him and has barely played half the season, but people are already talking about having the money to re-up him. I don't know if DJ will have injury issues or not. I do know he's missed about 40% of this season. I don't know if he will be great or not. He's had a couple of flashes. I hope he will be, the same way I hope the Cats one day will be. I also hope this franchise/city isn't so hung up on finding "their own Chris Paul" to the point that they are blinding themselves to they actually do have. That said, as I hear things being a done deal about DJ being this team's future with zero regard for what has occurred in terms of actual games played, it is tough to swallow. It is hard for me to watch the Bobcats continue to act as if "every season's a new season, this was a fluke situation" over and over again as we are annually trying to piece together lineups and chemistry while integral parts are out injured/hurt.

Now I am not saying that the Bobcats won't move Felton and hand things to DJ, as investing without thought about injury and durabililty and then later looking for injury sympathy has been the franchise MO. I am just saying I do not see it as a logical move at this point in time.

Even as a Felton fan, I had resolved myself to him being moved (hopefully to a good situation as he has given his all to the team) if it brought in the right shotmaker/closer at the 2. However, as a Bobcat fan watching another season get derailed by injuries, it just doesn't make sense to me to again try to get rid of the one guy who has managed to continually play through pain (and often at ridiculous minutes levels) to help this team on a nightly basis.

I'm not claiming to be FO material. I simply observe patterns. And the pattern of placing no stock in the effect of injuries on seasons when making business decisions is one that I have not liked in this franchise's short history.


Right now everything is sunshine and daisies between Raymond and DJ but if you think that next year either of these guys is going to accept coming off the bench for any long stretch of time you have another thing coming.

I am a fan of Raymond but the reality is that he is not going to get a long term contract next season. DJ was drafted as the heir apparent and he will most likely be our full time starter sometime next season. As much as I love Raymond and what he has given once he has been used a a true starting pg, I doubt he figures into the teams long term plans.

Felton has been playing well and I look for him to be traded while his trade value is high. Sometime next season he WILL be traded imho.

[110oldeast]

Exactly. Well stated.


DJ has to prove he can be the starter first. Up til this point he hasn't done that yet.

When we drafted Ammo 3rd overall people opined that this meant the end of Crash.

Oops.

[BobCatsFanInTx]

DJ has to prove he can be the starter first. Up til this point he hasn't done that yet.

When we drafted Ammo 3rd overall people opined that this meant the end of Crash.

Oops.Color me stupid but I just don't see how these two players egos don't become a factor if either is relegated to the bench next season. I love Raymond and I am a die hard UNC fan but let's face it, the NBA is a business. DJ has been injured but if he starts playing well and showing more of his potential don't be surprised if he is starting from day one next season. I would much rather have both guys on the team because they offer depth at pg a lot of teams don't have the luxury of. With that said, if DJ plays the second half of the season healthy and he plays well, expect him to force Raymond out of Charlotte at some point in time.

Your point about AmMo and Crash would be a good one except it really doesn't pan out with AmMo sucking the way he has. If AmMo would have showed signs of being worthy of his #3 pick his first season you can bet that the team would have gotten behind him. Hell, the team has kept holding out hope on him being something more and he hasn't.

Anyway, I am a Raymond Felton fan and love what he has been bringing as of late but the reality is that DJ was drafted to be a starter. The team can't keep two top ten draft picks at pg and expect that one of them will agree with coming off the bench. Starters get more recognition when it comes to being picked as All Stars and the such. Everybody has some ego and these two guys are no exception. ;)

[BobCatsFanInTx]

Everybody so far seems to be coming from a point of view that paints a pretty picture for whatever player they like best. I try to look at things objectively. Maybe Raymond grooms DJ for one more season but mark my words, RAYMOND will NOT remain a Bobcat more than one more season. If I turn out wrong I will EAT CROW and be happy to do it.

[spectre]

Hiring Larry Brown was a "win now" move. Regardless of the draft he will play the guys he thinks gives him the best chance of winning...and in LB's mind defense is a big part of that.

Management might move Felton because of his contract situation, but if he's kept thru the year like the latest rumors have been saying it's going to come down to the above, and egos won't matter.

In either case I don't know that DJ even has an ego nor do I know that Felton would be so ego driven that he'd demand to leave if he's not in the starting group but still gets 30 mpg (which he would between the 1 & 2).

Still, for your scenario DJ has to prove he can be the starter...and he hasn't done it yet.

[110oldeast]

You are right about the NBA being a business. And thus far the Bobcats have been in the business of disregarding injuries when making their decisions. If they ever want to be a contender for more than portions of a season, they will have to re-evaluate this process. DJ showing some potential and going night in and night out even when hurt (there is a difference b/w hurt and injured) are two different things. This team can't keep thinking that 60-65 games with all their starters together is enough to get into the playoffs with.


Color me stupid but I just don't see how these two players egos don't become a factor if either is relegated to the bench next season. I love Raymond and I am a die hard UNC fan but let's face it, the NBA is a business. DJ has been injured but if he starts playing well and showing more of his potential don't be surprised if he is starting from day one next season. I would much rather have both guys on the team because they offer depth at pg a lot of teams don't have the luxury of. With that said, if DJ plays the second half of the season healthy and he plays well, expect him to force Raymond out of Charlotte at some point in time.

Your point about AmMo and Crash would be a good one except it really doesn't pan out with AmMo sucking the way he has. If AmMo would have showed signs of being worthy of his #3 pick his first season you can bet that the team would have gotten behind him. Hell, the team has kept holding out hope on him being something more and he hasn't.

Anyway, I am a Raymond Felton fan and love what he has been bringing as of late but the reality is that DJ was drafted to be a starter. The team can't keep two top ten draft picks at pg and expect that one of them will agree with coming off the bench. Starters get more recognition when it comes to being picked as All Stars and the such. Everybody has some ego and these two guys are no exception. ;)

[spectre]

I also have to ask what the hell does "favorite player" have to do with anything? You're arguing (unless I'm mistaken) that DJ is going to get the starting role just because of potential and management's idea that he's the "future".

There is no way that an argument can be made that DJ has shown the signs that he could come in right now and play as well as Felton has after the trade. He would probably shoot a better % but even that's arguable as he's sitting at 40% himself.

If we're getting knocked out of playoff contention like it appears we now will be I want DJ to get a lot of burn til the end of the season with the other starters minus Felton. Hopefully he stands up and takes the job.

Then your scenario might come into play.

[110oldeast]

My point is not about liking a player better. My point is about a player consistently doing things to improve the team's overall success. In order for an LB team to be successful, they need defense and cohesion. You don't get those things on a consistent basis without consistently playing with each other. In other words, you need your guys to be together night in and night out.

I agree that Felton would likely have a hard time swallowing coming off the bench at this point. That said, other than DJ being new, I have seen nothing to justify that. That said, if EITHER party had to come off the bench, it would be LB's job to manage and if he couldn't, as you mention the FO would have to move the right part, whichever that was.

My only point is make the guy show that the kid can do the chores and do them on a night in and night out basis before giving him the keys to the family car. If he proves worthy on a consistent basis, make your move.

But again, just assuming that he will be healthy with no evidence while moving the one part who has shown to be able to do it does not make sense to me right now. We've been burned too much in the past/present this way.


Everybody so far seems to be coming from a point of view that paints a pretty picture for whatever player they like best. I try to look at things objectively. Maybe Raymond grooms DJ for one more season but mark my words, RAYMOND will NOT remain a Bobcat more than one more season. If I turn out wrong I will EAT CROW andbe happy to do it.

[BobCatsFanInTx]

Sean May was also drafted to be the team's PF and marketed for UNC appeal. Adam Morrison was drafted #3 overall and was marketed for "Stache" appeal. Gerald Wallace has been signed as the face of the franchise and is known for his exciting plays.

As for things being sunshine and daisies, that's the coaches job to manage. And if he is a respected coach and cannot do it, somebody does have to go. In Raymond's case, he actually outplayed his predecessors (McInnis and BK) and led the team to greater team success at pg and still played SG. He kept his mouth shut and did his job. DJ hasn't done anything on the court to supplant him and has barely played half the season, but people are already talking about having the money to re-up him. I don't know if DJ will have injury issues or not. I do know he's missed about 40% of this season. I don't know if he will be great or not. He's had a couple of flashes. I hope he will be, the same way I hope the Cats one day will be. I also hope this franchise/city isn't so hung up on finding "their own Chris Paul" to the point that they are blinding themselves to they actually do have. That said, as I hear things being a done deal about DJ being this team's future with zero regard for what has occurred in terms of actual games played, it is tough to swallow. It is hard for me to watch the Bobcats continue to act as if "every season's a new season, this was a fluke situation" over and over again as we are annually trying to piece together lineups and chemistry while integral parts are out injured/hurt.

Now I am not saying that the Bobcats won't move Felton and hand things to DJ, as investing without thought about injury and durabililty and then later looking for injury sympathy has been the franchise MO. I am just saying I do not see it as a logical move at this point in time.

Even as a Felton fan, I had resolved myself to him being moved (hopefully to a good situation as he has given his all to the team) if it brought in the right shotmaker/closer at the 2. However, as a Bobcat fan watching another season get derailed by injuries, it just doesn't make sense to me to again try to get rid of the one guy who has managed to continually play through pain (and often at ridiculous minutes levels) to help this team on a nightly basis.

I'm not claiming to be FO material. I simply observe patterns. And the pattern of placing no stock in the effect of injuries on seasons when making business decisions is one that I have not liked in this franchise's short history.I agree that getting rid of Raymond would hurt but when the FO chose DJ it was inevitable that DJ was the teams future. I hope the Bobcats FO waits at least through part of next season and sees how DJ looks and whether he can be durable and performs well before pulling the trigger. The reality is that it's just not practical to have two high draft picks at pg and one of them accepts being a perennial back up.

[TattoodCats4life]

Coach Karl said this...
“If they want to trade him, they need to talk to me,” Karl said of Felton. “Not that we need another point guard.”

I'll call him on our behalf...

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=1135~2986~137~1002~2770~2753~3 016&teams=30~30~30~30~30~7~7&te=&cash=

[spectre]

Manu Ginobli comes off the bench! Rip Hamilton has agreed to come off the bench!

Why is that such a bad thing when you still are getting the PT?

Pay me 5 million a year and I'd ride the bench, sweep the locker room and carry everyone's bags.

[Slam]

I agree that getting rid of Raymond would hurt but when the FO chose DJ it was inevitable that DJ was the teams future.
Why was it inevitable?

The only thing inevitable was that if we didn't draft a PG, we were going into the following season with only 1 PG on the roster.

We are seeing what a lack of all round depth is doing to us now. Maybe DJ was only ever drafted to give us depth. Why is it assumed that he was drafted as our future?

[BobCatsFanInTx]

I also have to ask what the hell does "favorite player" have to do with anything? You're arguing (unless I'm mistaken) that DJ is going to get the starting role just because of potential and management's idea that he's the "future".

There is no way that an argument can be made that DJ has shown the signs that he could come in right now and play as well as Felton has after the trade. He would probably shoot a better % but even that's arguable as he's sitting at 40% himself.

If we're getting knocked out of playoff contention like it appears we now will be I want DJ to get a lot of burn til the end of the season with the other starters minus Felton. Hopefully he stands up and takes the job.

Then your scenario might come into play.Agreed. Still, DJ Augustine was Larry Browns choice and though I am sure Larry is thrilled with what he has gotten out of Raymond, Larry can make rash decisions. It would not surprise me if the team was continually shopping Raymond and some filler for some bench help. They won't just throw a quality player like Raymond away but I bet they are waiting til Raymond brings them the proper value. It would be dumb but Raymond's name has come up numerous times this season as trade bait. As it stands the Bobcats stand a chance at losing Raymond and getting nothing in return. I would rather the team trade him than have that happen.

[spectre]

But choice for what?

His choice was for DJ over Lopez & Bayless. We didn't need the combo guy because Felton can play the 1/2. Lopez and Mek play the exact same position and LB was adamant that we retain Mek (defense, remember?) and told MJ that we didn't have a chance without him to make the playoffs.

As Slam said we had ONE PG on the roster. What's the position LB obsesses about the most? Point guard. He wants as much quality in that position as he can get.

[110oldeast]

B-I-N-G-O. Probably b/c Sorrenson and Bonnell have been campaigning for a Felton replacement since he's been here and praised the drafting of Augustin for doing just this. Remember when they said we should have taken Mike Connelly?

That said, the thing that makes it seem inevitable and that he was meant to be the future is the marketing of him (yes, the Bobcats do this for at least one rookie a year, but this has been at a really high level), the relative commentary by Steve and Henry who I am almost certain have a certain amount of talking points given to them, and the press coverage.

Something as simple as the FoxSportsSouth commercials with the "Home of Wallace, Home of Okafor, Home of Augustin" commercials makes one figure they plan on DJ being the future. When one guy has been a large contributor in over half your wins and the other guy has only played in about 60% and the one who's played 60% of the games is featured in the commercial, I don't think it is a reach to assume that the franchise's plan was for the guy in the commerical to be the future. Whether that plan has been re-evaluated or put on hold, I don't know. My only point was that I would until I really saw something to put it into play.

And even if I did but it into play, my very next move would be getting a veteran point that I felt I could count on to hold things down just in case, so we aren't stuck trying to pull up people in desparate situations.


Why was it inevitable?

The only thing inevitable was that if we didn't draft a PG, we were going into the following season with only 1 PG on the roster.

We are seeing what a lack of all round depth is doing to us now. Maybe DJ was only ever drafted to give us depth. Why is it assumed that he was drafted as our future?

[110oldeast]

That's a heckuva point. As I said, you first put it in your coach's hands to manage.


Manu Ginobli comes off the bench! Rip Hamilton has agreed to come off the bench!

Why is that such a bad thing when you still are getting the PT?

Pay me 5 million a year and I'd ride the bench, sweep the locker room and carry everyone's bags.

[BobCatsFanInTx]

Why was it inevitable?

The only thing inevitable was that if we didn't draft a PG, we were going into the following season with only 1 PG on the roster.

We are seeing what a lack of all round depth is doing to us now. Maybe DJ was only ever drafted to give us depth. Why is it assumed that he was drafted as our future?Big Slam, where was DJ drafted? DJ was not a high draft pick with the idea of him being a bench player. Y'all can argue with me on this til the cows come home but I ain't budging. DJ was not a late first round or second round pick. He was picked at a high enough spot at a very important position that I doubt Larry counted on him being a career bench player. Those of you thinking the team should sign Raymond to a long term contract are not thinking realistically. I do think the team should sign and trade Raymond sometime around the first quarter of next season. That of coarse would depend on DJ's readiness to take over. As much as I like Raymond the team needs depth and Raymond could bring that to them.

This season would not be the season to trade Raymond. We are close enough in the playoff hunt that it would be foolish. If however the team seems to be going downhill without Crash than I feel it would be practical to shop Raymond. Next season the team needs to trade what little value they have and that value is Raymond. The team can't afford not getting replacements for May and Morrison imho.

[110oldeast]

I hear what you are saying, but where is your pg depth then?

We haven't had any since DJ went down. What happens if you drop Ray and then just have DJ and Singletary and DJ goes down again?


Big Slam, where was DJ drafted? DJ was not a high draft pick with the idea of him being a bench player. Y'all can argue with me on this til the cows come home but I ain't budging. DJ was not a late first round or second round pick. He was picked at a high enough spot at a very important position that I doubt Larry counted on him being a career bench player. Those of you thinking the team should sign Raymond to a long term contract are not thinking realistically. I do think the team should sign and trade Raymond sometime around the first quarter of next season. That of coarse would depend on DJ's readiness to take over. As much as I like Raymond the team needs depth and Raymond could bring that to them.

This season would not be the season to trade Raymond. We are close enough in the playoff hunt that it would be foolish. If however the team seems to be going downhill without Crash than I feel it would be practical to shop Raymond. Next season the team needs to trade what little value they have and that value is Raymond. The team can't afford not getting replacements for May and Morrison imho.

[Slam]

Big Slam, where was DJ drafted? DJ was not a high draft pick with the idea of him being a bench player.
So if we end up drafting around 10 this year and we pick someone like Jordan Hill, does that make him our PF of the future and the need for Diaw redundant because Hill was picked lotto?

[BobCatsFanInTx]

Manu Ginobli comes off the bench! Rip Hamilton has agreed to come off the bench!

Why is that such a bad thing when you still are getting the PT?

Pay me 5 million a year and I'd ride the bench, sweep the locker room and carry everyone's bags.True, but those are the rare exceptions. If I got paid like that I would to but the reality many times isn't so much like that. What I will say is that the team did not choose another high draft pick at the pg position without the idea of that player supplanting the other. So if you people want to believe that either of these players won't at some point get upset at not being the focal point of the team you are really deluded. There is not going to be enough minutes to spread around for both these players. Raymond stands to give up minutes once DJ comes back and those lost minutes may take a toll on Raymond's productivity. Also don't think Rip would agree to it if it meant losing serious playing time. In his situation he will get starters minutes and Manu is much the same. I don't however see DJ or Raymond getting starters type minutes coming off the bench. Both of these guys prefer to play the point so don't think DJ playing the two will suit him. DJ came to the NBA as a pg and I am sure he wishes to remain that way.

I will leave this by saying don't expect Raymond to spend more than one more season as a Bobcat. That is just my opinion but if the Bobcats FO acts as they usually do he will be gone soon.

Anyway, I have said all I am going to say about this topic we've beaten like a dead horse.

[BobCatsFanInTx]

So if we end up drafting around 10 this year and we pick someone like Jordan Hill, does that make him our PF of the future and the need for Diaw redundant because Hill was picked lotto? Yes!! Diaw would groom the young player with the hopes that the young player would replace him at some point. Lottery picks are not meant to be career back ups. Larry Brown was not big on Raymond but since DJ has been injured and Raymond has played well Larry has been forced to stick with him. Trading Raymond under these circumstances would be insane. Still, don't be surprised if Raymond is traded this off season.

My above comment on Lottery picks also means that those Lottery picks could be backups for a season or two depending on their development. Unless of coarse the picks turn out to be a waste like AmMo or May. Otherwise a team that picks high usually has lot of openings for a young player to start immediately. That is why they are lottery picks. Their perceived talent is such that they are eventually meant to be starters.

[Slam]

Yes!! Diaw would groom the young player with the hopes that the young player would replace him at some point. Lottery picks are not meant to be career back ups.
So your stance is that we drafted Ammo to eventually replace Crash.

[BobCatsFanInTx]

I hear what you are saying, but where is your pg depth then?

We haven't had any since DJ went down. What happens if you drop Ray and then just have DJ and Singletary and DJ goes down again?Good points 110oldeast. I agree with you and I would hate to lose Raymond but if a solid veteran pg can be brought in to backup DJ the Bobcats will more than likely trade Raymond. Larry likes Raymond but I am not sure Raymond is a Larry Brown pg. I would love to keep both Raymond and DJ but I just have the feeling that Larry and the FO has other plans. I hope I am wrong.

[BobCatsFanInTx]

So your stance is that we drafted Ammo to eventually replace Crash.Within a couple of years yes. Are you assuming that when we got AmMo that Crash was indispensable? If so you must be mistaken. With that said I never said every Lotto pick was a shoe in for a starter. If however that player lives up to or beyond their position in the draft don't think they won't knock another player out of their spot. Sometimes it takes two or three years but if a player lives up to the high choice they eventually start. Teams pick high with that in mind. Sometimes teams have players nearing the end of their careers and they pick the eventual replacement. In that instance the draft pick will come off the bench for a short while. Raymond is not a permanent starter. He will be gone sooner than later.

[110oldeast]

I've heard the "Larry Brown pg" phrase thrown out there, but at this point I am not sure what water it holds.

Can somebody define Larry Brown pg for me? I know that defense is a large part of it, but that wouldn't rule Felton out from being it.

What is a Larry Brown pg? How has DJ proven to be one and Raymond shown to not be one? I am asking this with all seriousness as I have looked at many of LBs pgs and there is diversity within their offensive skillsets.



Good points 110oldeast. I agree with you and I would hate to lose Raymond but if a solid veteran pg can be brought in to backup DJ the Bobcats will more than likely trade Raymond. Larry likes Raymond but I am not sure Raymond is a Larry Brown pg. I would love to keep both Raymond and DJ but I just have the feeling that Larry and the FO has other plans. I hope I am wrong.

[110oldeast]

BTW lottery pick is simply the first round pick. The only reason it comes with the name "lottery" is that your team finished in the bottom 14.

I doubt that every team is going by the mold of their first round pick automatically supplanting their starter at the respective position.

[dnbman]

Within a couple of years yes. Are you assuming that when we got AmMo that Crash was indispensable? If so you must be mistaken. With that said I never said every Lotto pick was a shoe in for a starter. If however that player lives up to or beyond their position in the draft don't think they won't knock another player out of their spot. Sometimes it takes two or three years but if a player lives up to the high choice they eventually start. Teams pick high with that in mind. Sometimes teams have players nearing the end of their careers and they pick the eventual replacement. In that instance the draft pick will come off the bench for a short while. Raymond is not a permanent starter. He will be gone sooner than later.

110oldeast and others have suggested, I think you're misinterpreting what teams are doing with lottery picks.

For one, a pick is only worth anything relative to the talent available. A team could conceivably go into the draft with the first pick and not see their selection as a starter.

Second, most teams are drafting for a need without necessarily determining whether that player will be a starter or not. Of course, every team would love for that pick to be an eventual starter. However, just because a pick was high, doesn't mean the team is going to start the player.

Which brings us to the present situation. We needed two things badly: pg depth and a big. Added to the decision making was the possibility that our current pg would not learn to play the game the LB way. To me, it's perfectly conceivable that LB picked who he thought was the most talented player that also gave him more flexibility to build his team. Should Augustin pan out, he could trade Felton for a player that would likely be as talented as any big he was going to pick at 10, with the exception of Lopez, who didn't see to fit with Okafor.

Basically, Augustin was both a vital piece and insurance if Felton truly was Starbury II and couldn't make things work in Charlotte. Brown would have at least one pg, which for Brown is the most important position on the court, that he could mold to play his way. I don't think there's any reason to read Augustin's selection as a clear statement that Felton's time is done and DJ is the pg of the future. The organization would be either short sighted or foolish to believe DJ is the unquestionable future. Rather, the team rolled the dice on a guy they thought would help us and give us flexibility.

[Ghost Kat]

It's a good debate on both sides. Raymond is finally showing some leadership. Not shooting any better but thats my personal beef. Tony Parker couldn't shoot a bit when he came into the NBA, Now he's deadly inside and outside. He apparently worked on it. But it's been pointed out, PG aren't just about shooting. Raymond has his ups and downs and this year i'm sure isn't the first time the trade Raymond concept has come up. I'll agree DJ has shown nothing really that says he's ready for full time starter.

I have to disagree that the FO and Larry Brown, knowing they need help in the front court would go with a supposely undersized PG. I don't know what basketball team would draft in the top ten for a bench player. If LB really believed in Felton he would have just looked for a free agent to back him up. I'm guessing LB see's in Augustin the type of PG HE wants, whatever that is. DJ is still a rookie, I've been told LB doesn't like rookies. But it's clear he likes DJ. Now that means nothing if DJ can't play or doesn't produce. But Felton has been with the team 4 yrs. They haven't been happy with what Felton has done in his time. He may be re-signed, But depending on DJ's production i doubt he'll be with the team long.

[BobCatsFanInTx]

I've heard the "Larry Brown pg" phrase thrown out there, but at this point I am not sure what water it holds.

Can somebody define Larry Brown pg for me? I know that defense is a large part of it, but that wouldn't rule Felton out from being it.

What is a Larry Brown pg? How has DJ proven to be one and Raymond shown to not be one? I am asking this with all seriousness as I have looked at many of LBs pgs and there is diversity within their offensive skillsets.With Larry their is no telling but I don't think DJ was drafted to spend years on the bench behind Raymond. I am sure there are many instances of lottery picks being career backups but I don't believe that was what the teams picking them intended when they were chosen. Whether a lottery player plays depends on whether they live up to their pick. Raymond is playing well but when Larry picked DJ it did not appear that Raymond was living up to where he was picked. If you ask me Ty Lawson reminds me a lot of Raymond but I bet he is picked later than Raymond was when our Bobcats drafted him. During the next draft Ty will be out of the lottery even though the upcoming draft appears to be a fairly shallow draft.

Raymond has been misused but I don't think Larry saw it that way when he decided to pick DJ. Larry felt that DJ fit what he was looking for out of the one. DJ is short but that is by far no longer the prerequisite for a one in the NBA. The Bobcats front office may deny it but Raymond was kept as partial insurance til they felt DJ was ready to take over. Since they got Singletary there is no doubt in my mind the FO has every intention of trading Raymond. Since Sean Singletary has not appeared ready and DJ has been hurt as of late Larry has had to accept Raymond as his type of point guard. Raymond has been a pleasant surprise and has actually made it more likely that he is traded in the near future. By necessity Larry has had to keep Raymond longer than the team wanted. If however the Bobcats can get settled and healthy, don't think Raymond will be looking at a long term contract. My guess is that the Bobcats will do everything in their power to trade Raymond before this trade deadline so as not to lose him as a FA and get nothing in return. That won't be easy so expect Raymond to be gone as a FA.

[BobCatsFanInTx]

BTW lottery pick is simply the first round pick. The only reason it comes with the name "lottery" is that your team finished in the bottom 14.

I doubt that every team is going by the mold of their first round pick automatically supplanting their starter at the respective position.If a team falls into the lottery it means those first fourteen players are supposed to be the top players in the first round. Expectations for those players fairly or unfairly are much higher. So with that in mind lottery teams were the worst of the NBA and have a great many needs to be filled. Those teams look to replace players who are not for whatever reasons getting it done. The NFL is many times the same way. The higher the pick the higher the expectations. Now Raymond was a top five pick and he is supposed to step up. I agree that he has been misused most of his career but I don't think Larry saw it that way and that is why DJ was picked.

Now hear this, I AM NOT SAYING A PLAYER MUST BE LOTTERY TO BE GREAT, but I am saying that there is a different set of expectations and that is why up til recently Raymond was seen as not meeting them. Thus DJ was picked as insurance with the idea of trading Raymond in the near future.

I am a fan of Raymond and always will be but I just don't see a long term future for Raymond with our Bobcats. It is sad really because Raymond is happy in North Carolina.:(

[BobCatsFanInTx]

110oldeast and others have suggested, I think you're misinterpreting what teams are doing with lottery picks.

For one, a pick is only worth anything relative to the talent available. A team could conceivably go into the draft with the first pick and not see their selection as a starter.

Second, most teams are drafting for a need without necessarily determining whether that player will be a starter or not. Of course, every team would love for that pick to be an eventual starter. However, just because a pick was high, doesn't mean the team is going to start the player.

Which brings us to the present situation. We needed two things badly: pg depth and a big. Added to the decision making was the possibility that our current pg would not learn to play the game the LB way. To me, it's perfectly conceivable that LB picked who he thought was the most talented player that also gave him more flexibility to build his team. Should Augustin pan out, he could trade Felton for a player that would likely be as talented as any big he was going to pick at 10, with the exception of Lopez, who didn't see to fit with Okafor.

Basically, Augustin was both a vital piece and insurance if Felton truly was Starbury II and couldn't make things work in Charlotte. Brown would have at least one pg, which for Brown is the most important position on the court, that he could mold to play his way. I don't think there's any reason to read Augustin's selection as a clear statement that Felton's time is done and DJ is the pg of the future. The organization would be either short sighted or foolish to believe DJ is the unquestionable future. Rather, the team rolled the dice on a guy they thought would help us and give us flexibility.I agree that DJ was basically insurance but I would say short term insurance not a long term stand by. DJ was picked imo with the idea that when the time was right Raymond would bring in some decent value. Raymond's improved play as of late imo still would only intensify the teams desire to trade him. As of now our Bobcats don't have much in the way of value for trades. Raymond is that value. This team could seriously use some depth. Raymond may bring some. As things stand imho Raymond most likely will play elsewhere next season as he leaves as a free agent.

[Ghost Kat]

I agree that DJ was basically insurance but I would say short term insurance not a long term stand by. DJ was picked imo with the idea that when the time was right Raymond would bring in some decent value. Raymond's improved play as of late imo still would only intensify the teams desire to trade him. As of now our Bobcats don't have much in the way of value for trades. Raymond is that value. This team could seriously use some depth. Raymond may bring some. As things stand imho Raymond most likely will play elsewhere next season as he leaves as a free agent.

I have to agree, If Felon was living up to what was expected of him they wouldn't have drafted so high for a PG. Raymond himself was drafted to high, Thats why he hasn't lived up to a #5 pick. You said he plays like Ty Lawson above, I agree totally. Lawson probably won't be a top 15 pick. Raymond i would say is better in certain area's but he wasn't worth a 5th pick. We are basically stuck till he trade or he leaves for more money. I'll give him credit for play'd hard and being durable. But He might be to expensive to bring back to either become a back up, maybe , and it would be crazy to keep playin him at SG.

[dnbman]

Raymond's improved play as of late imo still would only intensify the teams desire to trade him.

That's terrible logic. So, if he continued to improve and became one of the best pgs in the league, we would only desire that much more to trade him for another piece?

Obviously there were questions about Felton's abilities before the draft. Unquestionably, we picked DJ because of some of those questions. However, if Felton continues to improve, playing well on both sides of the court, I don't think you can easily trade him simply to make room for DJ.

DJ is not a sure thing. He may be the second coming of Steve Nash, but right now we don't know that. What we do know is that Felton is clearly improving, benefiting greatly from finally having solid players at each position. He's moving his way up the pg ranks and was running our team well against some of the stiffest competition in the league.

I don't think you trade that because DJ hits 90% of his free throws and has a prettier jumper.

[110oldeast]

That's a helluva post, especially the last sentence. Felton is not always the most aesthetically pleasing as he often is more about grit than glitz, but he is a guy who will be there to battle night in and night out. And no, durability and toughness are not all he brings to the table. As to this notion that he is "finally" showing leadership and/or perforcming, it is a farce. There has been evidence there if folks really wanted to see it before. The irony is that he finished last year better than he has been playing in this current stretch, but nobody noticed since all the energy was spent on ripping Vincent.

Again, if the asking price is truly "astronomical," you ship him and try to get back some decent value. However, if he can be had at a reasonable price, I don't see this idea of just moving him b/c the newer model MIGHT be really good.


That's terrible logic. So, if he continued to improve and became one of the best pgs in the league, we would only desire that much more to trade him for another piece?

Obviously there were questions about Felton's abilities before the draft. Unquestionably, we picked DJ because of some of those questions. However, if Felton continues to improve, playing well on both sides of the court, I don't think you can easily trade him simply to make room for DJ.

DJ is not a sure thing. He may be the second coming of Steve Nash, but right now we don't know that. What we do know is that Felton is clearly improving, benefiting greatly from finally having solid players at each position. He's moving his way up the pg ranks and was running our team well against some of the stiffest competition in the league.

I don't think you trade that because DJ hits 90% of his free throws and has a prettier jumper.

[110oldeast]

Again this improvement started last year when Felton got fulltime pg duties and McInnis was cut during the last 25 games of the year (a stretch Bonnell constantly harped on before the year as one of the most difficult stretches).

Felton helped the team go 13-12 while averaging 15.5 pts 8.5 assists (1st east, 5th overall) and a 2.85/1 a/t ratio.

In the 12 games without Wallace games with "big unproductive contracts" Nazr Mohammed and Matt Carroll the team was 8-4. Felton averaged 18.2 pts and 9.6 assists with a 3.3 a/t ratio.

I only post this to dispute the notion that this has just been some flash in the pan situation of late, as many seem to be putting out there. Below are the last 25 games of Vincent's coaching career here where Felton was a pg exclusively, not cherrypicked to only show good ones. It did show however, that given the opportunity to play with a pair of players who could knock down the perimeter shot that he could be quite productive (as he has with Boris and Raja).

It is about showing that with a lineup that can spread the floor with multiple shooters, that Felton has tremendous pg capabilities and potential that could possibly utilized right here at home. And if folks choose, they can read game stories, play by play breakdowns, etc. that give an ever more full picture.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280229002

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280302030

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280304016

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280305030

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280307030

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280308027

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280312006

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280314010

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280316005

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280317029

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280319011

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280322030

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280325026

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280326013

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280328025

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280329022

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280331030

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280402030

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280404028

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280405030

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280408030

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280409018

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280412011

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280415017

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280416030

[Slam]

Wouldn't it be awesome if we used this years draft pick on Rubio or Jennings or Teague or Curry or Maynor or Miles or Lawson or Collison or one of the 6 or so other PG's in the upcoming draft.

That might just about send this board into a tail spin!!

[spectre]

Without You (Gerald Wallace) (http://www.queencityhoops.com/WithoutYouCrash.php)

Just to reiterate how much we've sunk defensively since Crash' injury (not that we need reiteration as it's pretty damn obvious):


With you, Gerald, the Bobcats overall mark of 104.6 on defense is 8th in the league.
Without you, it would rank 27th.

[Ghost Kat]

Without You (Gerald Wallace) (http://www.queencityhoops.com/WithoutYouCrash.php)

Just to reiterate how much we've sunk defensively since Crash' injury (not that we need reiteration as it's pretty damn obvious):


I agree, We miss you Gerald!!!!

[Ghost Kat]

The main question with Felton is he the best this franchise can do at PG?

Is this the best Felton is going to play?

Is Felton's productive replaceable?

How much is Felton really worth to keep?

Have two top 10 drafted PG's ever been able to share time?
Especially when the new PG already seems to have a higher upside then the starting PG.

[etothet]

110oldeast, I could not believe those numbers. Raymond played at a very high level during that stretch. Wow! FO might better think twice about trading him.

[spectre]

It's got to boil down to money. IF we can sign him to a MLE type deal we'd have less than 10 million tied up in a solid PG rotation for 3+ years, and that's considering we're also getting spot minutes at the 2. This is important, because then we'd be free to cover the 35+ million for the other 4 spots in the starting lineup (a starting SG for 5 million is a steal).

If he really does get offers in the 8 million plus range then we have to move him because as we sit we can't afford 50 million tied up in the starting lineup.

Cat I know you keep bringing up the draft positions, but to me that's not as important in either salary nor in pecking order as regards to starting. It's the production and their worth in regards to their contract.

IMO it's going to be all about the money.

[Ghost Kat]

It's got to boil down to money. IF we can sign him to a MLE type deal we'd have less than 10 million tied up in a solid PG rotation for 3+ years, and that's considering we're also getting spot minutes at the 2. This is important, because then we'd be free to cover the 35+ million for the other 4 spots in the starting lineup (a starting SG for 5 million is a steal).

If he really does get offers in the 8 million plus range then we have to move him because as we sit we can't afford 50 million tied up in the starting lineup.

Cat I know you keep bringing up the draft positions, but to me that's not as important in either salary nor in pecking order as regards to starting. It's the production and their worth in regards to their contract.

IMO it's going to be all about the money.

In the full scope your right, Where you are drafted, means nothing about how productive you will be. ( Morrison). I just don't know of a team drafting two top ten PG's four yrs apart and keeping both of them long term. That gets to be real expensive when it come time to resign them.

[dnbman]

In the full scope your right, Where you are drafted, means nothing about how productive you will be. ( Morrison). I just don't know of a team drafting two top ten PG's four yrs apart and keeping both of them long term. That gets to be real expensive when it come time to resign them.

That's not especially surprising. There's only five positions to pick. Chances are you're going to duplicate talent within a 3-4 year period. We picked a C, a PG and PF, a SF, and then a PG after trading for a star SG. The only other sensible pick would have been a PF, which Brown thought he could find later in the draft.

[110oldeast]

Exactly. If Kevin Love had fallen to us, the team very likely would have taken him. Instead they held out hope, one more time, for Sean May.

My question is if Lopez was drafted, would that have signaled then end to Okafor (who despite having a PF body is a C)?


That's not especially surprising. There's only five positions to pick. Chances are you're going to duplicate talent within a 3-4 year period. We picked a C, a PG and PF, a SF, and then a PG after trading for a star SG. The only other sensible pick would have been a PF, which Brown thought he could find later in the draft.

[Ghost Kat]

Exactly. If Kevin Love had fallen to us, the team very likely would have taken him. Instead they held out hope, one more time, for Sean May.

My question is if Lopez was drafted, would that have signaled then end to Okafor (who despite having a PF body is a C)?

I don't think so, They had a chance to trade up to get him or Mayo. It either didnt work out or they thought Love wasn't worth it. Can you really say he would help this team more then DJ? LB's done pretty good job at filling the big man hole over the season. Okafor and Lopez are basically the same player. So if they didn't think they would resign him, Then yes Lopez would have meant the end. But They seemed pretty sure he would resign and they didn't need another Okafor clone.

[dnbman]

I don't think so, They had a chance to trade up to get him or Mayo. It either didnt work out or they thought Love wasn't worth it. Can you really say he would help this team more then DJ? LB's done pretty good job at filling the big man hole over the season. Okafor and Lopez are basically the same player. So if they didn't think they would resign him, Then yes Lopez would have meant the end. But They seemed pretty sure he would resign and they didn't need another Okafor clone.

There's no doubt that Love would have helped us more than DJ this year, if only because we had a starting pg and didn't have a starting PF, which Love could have played. We would have been a more balanced team.

Now, DJ may definitely be the better player long term.

[BobCatsFanInTx]

That's terrible logic. So, if he continued to improve and became one of the best pgs in the league, we would only desire that much more to trade him for another piece?

Obviously there were questions about Felton's abilities before the draft. Unquestionably, we picked DJ because of some of those questions. However, if Felton continues to improve, playing well on both sides of the court, I don't think you can easily trade him simply to make room for DJ.

DJ is not a sure thing. He may be the second coming of Steve Nash, but right now we don't know that. What we do know is that Felton is clearly improving, benefiting greatly from finally having solid players at each position. He's moving his way up the pg ranks and was running our team well against some of the stiffest competition in the league.

I don't think you trade that because DJ hits 90% of his free throws and has a prettier jumper.You can't trade and get rid of worthless players if you don't have something of quality to offer in a package deal. Felton playing well means his trade value goes up and the Bobcats have a better chance of getting fair compensation.

[spectre]

I don't think so, They had a chance to trade up to get him or Mayo. It either didnt work out or they thought Love wasn't worth it. Can you really say he would help this team more then DJ? LB's done pretty good job at filling the big man hole over the season. Okafor and Lopez are basically the same player. So if they didn't think they would resign him, Then yes Lopez would have meant the end. But They seemed pretty sure he would resign and they didn't need another Okafor clone.

They wanted too much (MJ said so). We were offering our pick plus Crash and that still wasn't enough.

Pretty sure the target was Westbrook tho, not Love.

[amour217]

You can't trade and get rid of worthless players if you don't have something of quality to offer in a package deal. Felton playing well means his trade value goes up and the Bobcats have a better chance of getting fair compensation.

you said package