"We'd Love To Keep Him, But..."

[spectre]

I don't buy much of what Vecsey throws out, but anyway...

Peter Vecsey - New York Post (http://www.nypost.com/seven/02012009/sports/moresports/detroits_troubles_due_to_lack_of_confide_153054.ht m?&page=2)


Why would the Bobcats entertain trading Raymond Felton, you ask? Because his agent has let management know his client's price tag this summer will be hovering around astronomical. So, Brown is helping him drive up his price.
In half a season, Felton's point skills have strikingly improved from a shoot-first mentality to a calculating distributor able to cover bigger shooting guards. In other words, he's doing everything he's told by his coach. And the rejuvenated Brown gave his apt pupil accordant responsibilities, especially with D.J. Augustin sidelined for most of January.
"Before Larry got here, Raymond simply did not know how to play. He was one of those guys who just ran and the ball never moved when it was in his hands," said someone on the scene. "There was no rhythm or rhyme to the offense . . . outside-in versus inside-out . . . rare change of sides . . . few passes that led to the pass to a basket . . . the man cutting on pick-and-rolls would be missed . . . if covered he wouldn't hit the corner . . . poor clock management.
"Raymond showed up this year ready and willing to learn. He sets a terrific example. He never takes a practice off and never takes a possession off, something a lot of these guys don't do. We'd love to keep him, but . . ."

[Slam]

He's right in that before Larry got here Felts was one of those guys who just ran and the ball never moved when it was in his hands. There was no rhythm or rhyme to the offense . . . outside-in versus inside-out . . . rare change of sides . . . few passes that led to the pass to a basket . . . the man cutting on pick-and-rolls would be missed . . . if covered he wouldn't hit the corner . . . poor clock management.

So he's improved. Isn't that the expectation? He has a new coach who is guiding him for the 1st time in his NBA career. Wouldn't you expect him to get better?

The whole "he never takes a practice off" thing - what the hell is that? By all accounts Felts is a total gym junkie. When has he ever taken a play off?

I'm worried about the "astronomical" extension mentioned, but don't buy into it. As far as LB running his value up goes: How the hell is he doing that? By playing the only capable PG we have on the roster right now? Maybe LB should start benching Felts and playing "Lil Sean" full time mins at the point to drive Felts value down?

I mean, we are only in the hunt for a playoff berth after all!!

The New York post shits me to tears. They are the only jackasses trying to drive the value of players up - their own crappy players like Curry, who they make up a different trade lie about every other week.

Wankers.

[spectre]

I totally agree about the tabloid NYP. They kept running that Curry to Charlotte crap repeatedly trying to make something out of nothing. Larry Brown would NEVER want that fat POS on this team.

At the risk of hijacking my own thread (heh, it is MY thread!), I want to cross reference a post on RGM made by Walt after I asked about teams with capspace next year who would also want a PG. Since he just started posting on this board I hope it's ok:


team- rough approx of contract commitment-notes
Atlanta- 41 w/o Williams caphold. Bibby and Flip sign elsewhere.
Detroit- 40 w/ McDysse, Wallace, Iverson going for nothing.
Indiana- 55 w/ team option on Daniels picked up & Diener ativating po. doesn't include Jack caphold. 46 if Diener opts out and team declines option on Marquis.
LAC- 56 if Skinner and Ricky Davis opt out of player options
Grizzlies- 38
Heat- 51
T'wolves: 50
TFKA Sonics- 39
Portland-40 w/o Miles commitment
I could see Atlanta, Indiana, TFKA Sonics, Wolves and maybe Portland bidding on Felton. The Grizzlies doing it would be hilarious. Stuckey takes Detroit out of the running. Highly unlikely that Davis AND Skinner opt out. Heat want to clear cap to try and lure a player to Miami in order to keep (ST)D-Wade
edit: oh, another thing--lot of PG prospects in the upcoming draft. Rubio, Holday, Teague, Jennings, Curry alone are lottery guys, plus Warren, Flynn, Lawson on their, ahem heels (ucwutididthere?) and Mills, Collison, Calathes, Maynor, Collins, Walker, De Colo, Pargo and some guy Jerrells I've never heard of on the 1st round bubble. Maybe TFKA Sonics win big and take Griffin and make an offer to Felts to have a solid combo and the ability to have him play pg w/ Westbrook at the 2 if the decide he can't run the team? Otherwise I'd say the Hawks are the biggest threat.

Who out of that bunch would pay Felton an "astronomical" contract? Not ATL's tight fisted ownership. Griz are pretty cheap too. Walt's thoughts on Seattle trading their pick and then going after a PG is pretty good, but I really think them giving Felton a big deal is a reach too.

Portland has to take care of their young guys. Indiana has TJ & Jack.

I just don't see it.

[Slam]

Agreed Spectre, there just doesn't seem to be a lot of money out there right now. Plus the cap will probably come down next season due to the economy so owners will be aware of that.

Maybe he'll just play for the QO and become and UFA summer after next and hope that some of the big 2010 money that people are hording and will slip through the cracks to him?

BTW: I don't see the Thunder making a play for him at all. They have Westbrook as their future PG. He plays MUCH better there than he does at the 2 spot. They will probably luck into Harden and end up with an awesome core of Westbrook, Harden, Durant, Green and anyone of their 500 bigs.

[TattoodCats4life]

If we trade Felton, which I doubt we should, we should stop trying to force Nazr down everyone's throat because that will kill everything. Instead pack Felt, May, Ammo (all exp/2010 exp) and try to get a start capable vet PG and some capable help on the 2/3. I think the only trade anyone is going to make with Indiana at this point is taking Tinsley for an expiring, and while I haven't seen him play and I know he has a bit of an attitude, his stats are pretty darn good...wonder what taking Tinsley gives the taker access to on their roster and their picks? Not saying "PULL THE TRIGGER" Just saying its an avenue to be explored.

[110oldeast]

I'm sorry, but all this did not occur in half a season if folks watched carefully and SEPARATED when they were making him a combo vs having him be a point guard. My issue with the way the Bobcats have portrayed him as Starbury light is that that it is b/c they continually played him as a SG and then tried to pimp the same numbers off as full pg numbers. Furthermore, a shoot first pg doesn't rank 38th among 1st and 2nd string pgs in FGAs per minute. He led the team in total FGAs b/c he constantly led them in minutes and games played (everyone else got hurt at a ridiculous clip) while also taking his share of bailout shots. I will credit LB for finally installing an offensive system with rhyme and reason, however.

Again, he was 5th in the NBA and 1st in the East in assists per/game the 2nd half of last year, which included a 25 game stretch where he played pg almost exclusively. In the 12 (8-4) games w/ a floor spreading lineup of (Carroll, JRich, Dudley, and Mek), many of which were against playoff teams (or playoff race teams), he averaged 9.8 assists per game with a 3.2/1 a/t ratio. He also covered big guards prior to this year. Bonell and crew finally started acknowledging some of his strengths this year (likely to increase his trade value), but they didn't just all start now.

Look, I am THRILLED about LB's presence and wish he would have been here from day 1, but to act like this is ALL a change that occurred in a half season is silly and disengenuous coming from a franchise who misdeveloped their #5 pick pg into a combo while covering their butts with commentary. Furthermore, to ignore factors such as us finally having a set of cohesive parts who can spread and balance the floor (prior to Gerald's injury), including the first legit PF in franchise history (thanks to the FO waiting on May) who can pick and pop, Emeka's learning how to make himself available, be ready, and catch the ball better (Felton seemed to hit Mohammed fine as a pick and roll cutter) are factors in his "evolution." It's really ironic coming from the NY press considering how Felton often ran circles around the Knicks with the Pick and Roll in the Garden distributing and controlling the game.

It's also funny how Felton was never described as shoot first before playing a bunch of 2G for the Bobcats and being the only main rotation players to consistently finish seasons (skewing his relative shot count). And yet they have left this unfairly as the knock on him. It's also ironic that the only time he gets to consistently play true pg is when someone else is hurt and all these skills of distributing and leading just "come out of nowhere." He's never been close to Starbury even if they have managed to frame things this way. Read his draft scouting report below which is one of the most accurate assessments of the kid's game that was out there, both the good and the bad.

Especially read paragraph 3.

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Raymond-Felton-NBA-Draft-Scouting-Report-2692/


I don't buy much of what Vecsey throws out, but anyway...

Peter Vecsey - New York Post (http://www.nypost.com/seven/02012009/sports/moresports/detroits_troubles_due_to_lack_of_confide_153054.ht m?&page=2)

[Slam]

Especially read paragraph 3.

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Raymond-Felton-NBA-Draft-Scouting-Report-2692/
Maybe the worst scouting report ever written on any player in the history of writing scouting reports on players.

[SWedd523]

To me that article looks like it's trying to drive Felton's price down in a trade or future signing. They make it seem like we're sitting here looking for deals and deals and it's not working because LB has his price too high. So they're making this article to show that he's not worth much.

Trying to bully us into lowering our asking price for Felton so we'll take trash (Curry) in return. If we're trading Felton, his price should be high and it should stay that way until we make a deal

[dnbman]

Maybe the worst scouting report ever written on any player in the history of writing scouting reports on players.

That wasn't far off base from what other scouting reports wrote about him. His biggest knocks were inconsistent outside shooting (much improved his junior year), a knack for playing too fast, and a concern that the system he played in would effect him more than some of the other guys.

Felton was known as a true pg before coming here. How great of a pg he was obviously varied. It wasn't until his second season that people started to wonder whether he was a true pg or not. In fact, people were loving the scoring at the end of his rookie year.

All this stuff has been debated to death. The only question that really matters now is whether the Bobcats should commit to him this year with another young pg waiting in the wings. I think they sign him and keep him. PGs can almost always get good value because of the "grass is greener" thinking so many teams have with their pgs.

[Shrimpy_Jackson]

The New York post shits me to tears.


I love you man. That's just a beautiful statement and one of my new personal favorites.

[110oldeast]

Not even close. I'm sorry, I watched the guy play enough to understand what that was based on. It wasn't based on playing 2 guard.

Worst development strategy ever.


Maybe the worst scouting report ever written on any player in the history of writing scouting reports on players.

[spectre]

The guy who wrote that for DE posts on this board every once in a blue moon. Is he gonna 'fess up? :rolleyes:

[110oldeast]

Exactly. Anybody who followed the kid through college would realize that that scouting report was spot on. It was part of the reason that he won the Cousy award for top pg that year as Cousy himself liked his pass first approach. That said, North Carolina never tried to run him at the 2 guard and never tried to play him "off the ball so he could look for his offense more" (the words of the same Bobcats organization who then tried to spin him into being shoot-first). Which one is it? Are you asking him to look for his offense more or distribute more? Don't talk out of both sides of your mouths and coach incongruently to what you claim you are looking for. The guy will do what he is told TO A FAULT, so stop pretending that he was a freelancing gunner, doing as he wanted with no clue that suddenly just got it.

I think this is all a cat and mouse game. I think the FO originally had very little intention of keeping Felton, which is why you got so many puff pieces from Bonnell his previous harshest critic as they tried to rebuild the perception of him for trade value. Now that they are less certain, they are attempting to bring him back to earth just in case they do need to sign him.

As to what to do. If he seriously is asking for "astronomical (you can't afford me)" money (who knows what that really means in this game of cat and mouse), then you do your damnest to find a veteran pg right now and move him for the best available opportunity to upgrade your team (see shotmaking wing). That said, I am not sure what the deal is at this stage. Driving a guy's value up only makes sense when you are trying to get something for him. Of course, I remember wanting to kill Bernie at the end of Gerald's contract year when they went to running a bunch of isos for him and allowing him to run his numbers up. I was wanting BB to coach as a GM a little more and not run the number up on a guy that you were looking to sign at the end of the year.

Who knows how this will play out? I would prefer for it to be a win/win for both parties, but who knows.


That wasn't far off base from what other scouting reports wrote about him. His biggest knocks were inconsistent outside shooting (much improved his junior year), a knack for playing too fast, and a concern that the system he played in would effect him more than some of the other guys.

Felton was known as a true pg before coming here. How great of a pg he was obviously varied. It wasn't until his second season that people started to wonder whether he was a true pg or not. In fact, people were loving the scoring at the end of his rookie year.

All this stuff has been debated to death. The only question that really matters now is whether the Bobcats should commit to him this year with another young pg waiting in the wings. I think they sign him and keep him. PGs can almost always get good value because of the "grass is greener" thinking so many teams have with their pgs.

[BobCatsFanInTx]

He's right in that before Larry got here Felts was one of those guys who just ran and the ball never moved when it was in his hands. There was no rhythm or rhyme to the offense . . . outside-in versus inside-out . . . rare change of sides . . . few passes that led to the pass to a basket . . . the man cutting on pick-and-rolls would be missed . . . if covered he wouldn't hit the corner . . . poor clock management.

So he's improved. Isn't that the expectation? He has a new coach who is guiding him for the 1st time in his NBA career. Wouldn't you expect him to get better?

The whole "he never takes a practice off" thing - what the hell is that? By all accounts Felts is a total gym junkie. When has he ever taken a play off?

I'm worried about the "astronomical" extension mentioned, but don't buy into it. As far as LB running his value up goes: How the hell is he doing that? By playing the only capable PG we have on the roster right now? Maybe LB should start benching Felts and playing "Lil Sean" full time mins at the point to drive Felts value down?

I mean, we are only in the hunt for a playoff berth after all!!

The New York post shits me to tears. They are the only jackasses trying to drive the value of players up - their own crappy players like Curry, who they make up a different trade lie about every other week.

Wankers.Regardless of what we feel about Raymond Felton I truly believe it is a matter of when not if Raymond is traded. I know many of you will be mad at me for saying that but I truly don't feel we can honestly have one of our two guys capable of starting playing backup. I am and always have been a fan of Raymond Felton. For that matter I was a fan of Sean May but the facts of both players are the facts. May is washed up and Felton is the only player this team of ours can afford to trade. Felton has trade value and has an adequate backup. No other starter has a solid enough backup that we can afford to trade that starter.

Listen y'all, I know you are going to think I am some guy that has come in to sh*t on your mess kit but that couldn't be farther from the truth. I just don't see a long term commitment between the Bobcats and Raymond Felton. At some point we are going to have to let Augustine and Singletary take this team over.

Singletary does not get much playing time but I am sure with Larry Brown coaching him up during the off season he will be more than adequate as a backup to DJ Augustine. Larry has always had solid production from his point guards. Chauncey Billups really excelled once he was tutelaged by our teams head coach. A full off season with both our current backups and I am sure they can handle taking over. With that said I am sure that Larry will insist on some point guard being thrown into a trade.

I will miss Raymond but remember it wasn't too long ago that many of you were not Raymond's biggest fans while I was defending him. That is proof that I am not against Raymond. I just see the writing on the wall where Raymond is concerned. ;)

[BobCatsFanInTx]

Agreed Spectre, there just doesn't seem to be a lot of money out there right now. Plus the cap will probably come down next season due to the economy so owners will be aware of that.

Maybe he'll just play for the QO and become and UFA summer after next and hope that some of the big 2010 money that people are hording and will slip through the cracks to him?

BTW: I don't see the Thunder making a play for him at all. They have Westbrook as their future PG. He plays MUCH better there than he does at the 2 spot. They will probably luck into Harden and end up with an awesome core of Westbrook, Harden, Durant, Green and anyone of their 500 bigs.Next year Raymond may be with our Bobcats but remember since Baron Davis left Golden State they have had a need for a point guard. Our GM used to be in the same spot for Golden State and it just would not surprise me if a deal was not worked out with the Warriors. Other than the Warriors I don't see a whole lot of teams in dire need for a pg. Maybe Dallas who has a quickly slipping Jason Kidd. Anyway, I just don't see a long term in Raymond's future.

[BobCatsFanInTx]

I'm sorry, but all this did not occur in half a season if folks watched carefully and SEPARATED when they were making him a combo vs having him be a point guard. My issue with the way the Bobcats have portrayed him as Starbury light is that that it is b/c they continually played him as a SG and then tried to pimp the same numbers off as full pg numbers. Furthermore, a shoot first pg doesn't rank 38th among 1st and 2nd string pgs in FGAs per minute. He led the team in total FGAs b/c he constantly led them in minutes and games played (everyone else got hurt at a ridiculous clip) while also taking his share of bailout shots. I will credit LB for finally installing an offensive system with rhyme and reason, however.

Again, he was 5th in the NBA and 1st in the East in assists per/game the 2nd half of last year, which included a 25 game stretch where he played pg almost exclusively. In the 12 (8-4) games w/ a floor spreading lineup of (Carroll, JRich, Dudley, and Mek), many of which were against playoff teams (or playoff race teams), he averaged 9.8 assists per game with a 3.2/1 a/t ratio. He also covered big guards prior to this year. Bonell and crew finally started acknowledging some of his strengths this year (likely to increase his trade value), but they didn't just all start now.

Look, I am THRILLED about LB's presence and wish he would have been here from day 1, but to act like this is ALL a change that occurred in a half season is silly and disengenuous coming from a franchise who misdeveloped their #5 pick pg into a combo while covering their butts with commentary. Furthermore, to ignore factors such as us finally having a set of cohesive parts who can spread and balance the floor (prior to Gerald's injury), including the first legit PF in franchise history (thanks to the FO waiting on May) who can pick and pop, Emeka's learning how to make himself available, be ready, and catch the ball better (Felton seemed to hit Mohammed fine as a pick and roll cutter) are factors in his "evolution." It's really ironic coming from the NY press considering how Felton often ran circles around the Knicks with the Pick and Roll in the Garden distributing and controlling the game.

It's also funny how Felton was never described as shoot first before playing a bunch of 2G for the Bobcats and being the only main rotation players to consistently finish seasons (skewing his relative shot count). And yet they have left this unfairly as the knock on him. It's also ironic that the only time he gets to consistently play true pg is when someone else is hurt and all these skills of distributing and leading just "come out of nowhere." He's never been close to Starbury even if they have managed to frame things this way. Read his draft scouting report below which is one of the most accurate assessments of the kid's game that was out there, both the good and the bad.

Especially read paragraph 3.

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Raymond-Felton-NBA-Draft-Scouting-Report-2692/110oldeast, I can understand your defense of Raymond but the reality is that Raymond is the only player on our team who has a good enough backup that we can afford to trade him. Why do you honestly think we got Sean Singletary? Larry needed a back up to DJ and planned on coaching Sean Singletary up that way. If Larry feels Sean is ready to back up DJ before the trade deadline don't be surprised if Raymond is gone.

I predict that no later than mid season next year Larry oversees a trade involving Raymond.

[etothet]

I think the Bobcat organization screwed up in a number of ways. First they didn't properly develop their 2005 lottery pick, Raymond Felton. Secondly, they turn around and draft an undersized point guard who can't defend the bigger point guards, and whose durability is in question, and he is supposedly the point guard of the future. When you look at the point guard position as a whole, Raymond Felton is now proving that he is really the point guard of the future. I don't know why they did not draft a big and we could have gotten Mario Chalmers as our second first round pick. Now you would have a big and another point guard that would have better served what Charlotte needed. Then you trade Ryan Hollins and Matt Carroll for Diop. Watching him play worries me. At least Ryan could jump. I hope we didn't make a big mistake doing this. He has not shown me he was worth that trade. On positive note, I think the Diaw/Bell acquisition was a good one. Lastly I honestly hope Raymond will be traded to a team that will appreciate his positives. I hear Dallas is still interested. I hope he gets a shot in Dallas. I think he will win and he will help Dallas become a better defensive team. So as bad as I would like to see Raymond stay in Charlotte, I hope he leaves for his sake before the trade deadline.

[Ghost Kat]

As much as been said about DJ not showing he's ready for prime time, almost the same can be said about Raymond. He's play'd as a NBA starter for 4 yrs with the same team. Most would agree he's play'd well but never really lived up to he's #5 pick in "05. Yes, Felton works hard, is durable, and has been productive in certain area's over his career. But i'm guessing we can agree it's only been in the last couple of games that Raymond has flowered into what some are calling an All-star PG. I still wonder why if Felton was viewed as a true PG, then why he would be moved to SG by three different coaches including his legendary latest one who knows PG's.

I have to disagree, I think DJ has shown he's ready for prime time. But I don't know if he's shown his body is ready for NBA life. But he is a rookie and it takes time to get used to that type of treatment. He's shown he can hit big shots. He's shown he can hang with the name brand PG's. He's shown good court awareness. He's not horrible on defense and he can learn better foot work to get better against big guards. Mugsy was 5'3 but i remember him saying those big guys have to put the ball in front of me sometime.Either dribbling or shooting they all bring it to my level, Then I slap it out their hands.

I think losing Felton wouldn't hurt this trade as much as a lose of Wallace or Okafor. IMO DJ & Lil Sean can produce the same numbers next year that Felton would have. Either alone or together I don't think we'd lose much production. LIL Sean plays right now like a 3rd string PG that has been traded 4 times before his first NBA game. He's just trying to do what he's told and not turn the ball over. Sean can score but he doesn't try, He wants to be a LB type PG, Whatever that is. Felton has done his job for the cats good or bad, just like with Matt Carroll I think it's time to try some different options.

[RELAXTV]

Next year Raymond may be with our Bobcats but remember since Baron Davis left Golden State they have had a need for a point guard. Our GM used to be in the same spot for Golden State and it just would not surprise me if a deal was not worked out with the Warriors. Other than the Warriors I don't see a whole lot of teams in dire need for a pg. Maybe Dallas who has a quickly slipping Jason Kidd. Anyway, I just don't see a long term in Raymond's future.

If we can pry A.Randolph, Marco, and someone else for Felts, I'd be happy. Screw our chance at the playoff this year, them, our current core, and a lotto pick next year, let alone we don't have may anymore, will do wonders for our team. Wish Golden State would bite.

[fatlever]

Maybe the worst scouting report ever written on any player in the history of writing scouting reports on players.

haha... that crap is garbage. where do they find these writers?

[BobCatsFanInTx]

As much as been said about DJ not showing he's ready for prime time, almost the same can be said about Raymond. He's play'd as a NBA starter for 4 yrs with the same team. Most would agree he's play'd well but never really lived up to he's #5 pick in "05. Yes, Felton works hard, is durable, and has been productive in certain area's over his career. But i'm guessing we can agree it's only been in the last couple of games that Raymond has flowered into what some are calling an All-star PG. I still wonder why if Felton was viewed as a true PG, then why he would be moved to SG by three different coaches including his legendary latest one who knows PG's.

I have to disagree, I think DJ has shown he's ready for prime time. But I don't know if he's shown his body is ready for NBA life. But he is a rookie and it takes time to get used to that type of treatment. He's shown he can hit big shots. He's shown he can hang with the name brand PG's. He's shown good court awareness. He's not horrible on defense and he can learn better foot work to get better against big guards. Mugsy was 5'3 but i remember him saying those big guys have to put the ball in front of me sometime.Either dribbling or shooting they all bring it to my level, Then I slap it out their hands.

I think losing Felton wouldn't hurt this trade as much as a lose of Wallace or Okafor. IMO DJ & Lil Sean can produce the same numbers next year that Felton would have. Either alone or together I don't think we'd lose much production. LIL Sean plays right now like a 3rd string PG that has been traded 4 times before his first NBA game. He's just trying to do what he's told and not turn the ball over. Sean can score but he doesn't try, He wants to be a LB type PG, Whatever that is. Felton has done his job for the cats good or bad, just like with Matt Carroll I think it's time to try some different options.Excellent Post CK!! :D

[110oldeast]

I will say I am not for overpaying anyone (as I feel we have repeatedly as a franchise) and if Felton is going to command too much money, then you obviously have to try to get value for him.

That said, where is all this evidence of DJ having "proven" himself? Who are all the "name brand" pgs he's handled his business with? It's these types of comments that make me use the term "give" credit in his case. He has had a few flashes, and Felton has had many more. Now, again moving Felton b/c he's too expensive is one thing. But selling this notion that Augustin is a proven commodity while Felton is a variable or no more proven is a stretch, or you are using 2 completely different sets of criteria to evaluate them (which has been happening pretty consistently).

I prefer that both guys excel so that they make the team better (either through their play or through what they bring back to the team), but I feel again that one guy is given being much more credit for what folks "hope he can do" while another guy continues to not get equivalent credit for what he actually has done.

[etothet]

Well stated.

[TattoodCats4life]

I will say I am not for overpaying anyone (as I feel we have repeatedly as a franchise) and if Felton is going to command too much money, then you obviously have to try to get value for him.

That said, where is all this evidence of DJ having "proven" himself? Who are all the "name brand" pgs he's handled his business with? It's these types of comments that make me use the term "give" credit in his case. He has had a few flashes, and Felton has had many more. Now, again moving Felton b/c he's too expensive is one thing. But selling this notion that Augustin is a proven commodity while Felton is a variable or no more proven is a stretch, or you are using 2 completely different sets of criteria to evaluate them (which has been happening pretty consistently).

I prefer that both guys excel so that they make the team better (either through their play or through what they bring back to the team), but I feel again that one guy is given being much more credit for what folks "hope he can do" while another guy continues to not get equivalent credit for what he actually has done.

I'm not a jumping up and down "trade felton" guy, but DJ DID handle his business well against CP3 when they came to Charlotte...as well as the minutes he covered Wade when Miami came to town... hopefully everyone doesnt jump up and down and want to trade him when he comes back and isn't as good as he was after a month off...but im sure we'll seea Trade DJ thread on Saturday.

[GoBobs]

Being that Felton is a restricted free agent there is no reason to feel pressure to trade him. Almost all restricted free agents resign with their team. Think about the guys lately Ben Gordon, Anderson Verajo, Carl Laundry. The only one I can think of that didn't is Reshard Lewis and I don't see that happening with felton. Most of the players in the NBA expect they will get a big deal but there is only so much money under the cap. His Agent wanting max money doesn't mean crap the only thing that matters is what another team offers him. Worst case we resign him to a one year deal could always trade him after that.

[etothet]

I want Ray to stay, but if he got a shot with Dallas or Orlando I would be happy for him. There is rumor that Orlando may be interested. He was Charlotte's first pick in 2005 draft and never had a coach until now. Bernie was a motivator and got the team to play hard but developing a point guard is another story. I like DJ, but a few games don't really prove a lot. Hope DJ will prove he is the real deal. He has definitely had some flashes of brilliance, but we've seen those kinds of things in the NBA before. He is a good kid but I worry about his defense and durability. I think Raymond will be ok either way. He has established himself this year as a good point guard. He rebounds, he steals, and he is 11th in the league in assists, so some team will be glad to get him and I am hoping that whatever happens he will be placed in a situation built for his success because he is a class act.

[spectre]

You guys remember that for a stretch...a relatively small stretch...we were 4th in the NBA in defense? Around 8th - 10th a little longer. We were kicking some ass. That was great fun to watch, and I think that's the very first thing a Brown team does.

Anything we do shouldn't mess with that concept.

[dnbman]

You guys remember that for a stretch...a relatively small stretch...we were 4th in the NBA in defense? Around 8th - 10th a little longer. We were kicking some ass. That was great fun to watch, and I think that's the very first thing a Brown team does.

Anything we do shouldn't mess with that concept.

Spectre, you cheeky little monkey. So coy. I love it.

[110oldeast]

You won't see that from me. That said, if that is the level of standard that is being used in treating DJ as "proven" and "ready for primetime," Felton should have been signed to a long-term deal a long time ago. Having moments and spurts is much different from doing it in multiple games for the bulk of those games. Again one guy is getting a lot of credit for the former, while the other guy is not getting credit for the ladder.

Ultimately, I hope that we have 2 strong young pgs that we can count on and that affords us some flexibility. I hope whatever happens that it is a win-win for both parties as I think Felton has certainly given his all and then some to this franchise. If we are going to lose an asset like him at pg, we damn sure better get something solid in return (unlike the Felton for Diop swap that was once supposedly close to going through).


I'm not a jumping up and down "trade felton" guy, but DJ DID handle his business well against CP3 when they came to Charlotte...as well as the minutes he covered Wade when Miami came to town... hopefully everyone doesnt jump up and down and want to trade him when he comes back and isn't as good as he was after a month off...but im sure we'll seea Trade DJ thread on Saturday.

[TattoodCats4life]

You won't see that from me. That said, if that is the level of standard that is being used in treating DJ as "proven" and "ready for primetime," Felton should have been signed to a long-term deal a long time ago. Having moments and spurts is much different from doing it in multiple games for the bulk of those games. Again one guy is getting a lot of credit for the former, while the other guy is not getting credit for the ladder.

Ultimately, I hope that we have 2 strong young pgs that we can count on and that affords us some flexibility. I hope whatever happens that it is a win-win for both parties as I think Felton has certainly given his all and then some to this franchise. If we are going to lose an asset like him at pg, we damn sure better get something solid in return (unlike the Felton for Diop swap that was once supposedly close to going through).

I hear ya, as I've said I'd rather have 2 PGs a 7 mil each than one at 11 and one at 2-3, based on skill for the dollar. The 2 "good-great" players are far better than "great-excellent" plus "eh" Hopefully we can trade May's expiring and Ammo's 2010 expiring (this or next deadline) and get something even playable back :)

[Slam]

You guys remember that for a stretch...a relatively small stretch...we were 4th in the NBA in defense? Around 8th - 10th a little longer. We were kicking some ass. That was great fun to watch, and I think that's the very first thing a Brown team does.

Anything we do shouldn't mess with that concept.
Didn't we play pretty ordinary teams (other than a couple) in that stretch?

[spectre]

Well, let's see...

WAS - ordinary...89
Detroit - 78
Portland - 97
San Antonio - 84
Memphis - ordinary...86
Phoenix - 76
Indiana - 98
LAL - 110
Portland - 88

IMO our defense helped win those games or kept us in them...even in the games against teams like Memphis Raja's D in particular caused them to have off shooting nights. If I remember correctly in the losses (IND/POR) it was their bigs going off.

So yeah, I'd say that the majority (DET, POR, SAS, PHO, LAL) weren't "ordinary".

But I guess that could be just my opinion?

[davcbow]

The bulk were above average, but also remember we lost 2 players during that same stretch.....:cool:

[110oldeast]

The healthy starting lineup below is comprised of players who are all individually above average defensively at their positions. That was part of why that stretch was the way it was. They were starting to gel defensively and offensively and getting to be able to trust each other.

Felton
Raja
Gerald
Boris
Emeka


Well, let's see...

WAS - ordinary...89
Detroit - 78
Portland - 97
San Antonio - 84
Memphis - ordinary...86
Phoenix - 76
Indiana - 98
LAL - 110
Portland - 88

IMO our defense helped win those games or kept us in them...even in the games against teams like Memphis Raja's D in particular caused them to have off shooting nights. If I remember correctly in the losses (IND/POR) it was their bigs going off.

So yeah, I'd say that the majority (DET, POR, SAS, PHO, LAL) weren't "ordinary".

But I guess that could be just my opinion?

[spectre]

^ Yup, why Crash going down was such a kick in the nuts.

[Ghost Kat]

You won't see that from me. That said, if that is the level of standard that is being used in treating DJ as "proven" and "ready for primetime," Felton should have been signed to a long-term deal a long time ago. Having moments and spurts is much different from doing it in multiple games for the bulk of those games. Again one guy is getting a lot of credit for the former, while the other guy is not getting credit for the ladder.

Ultimately, I hope that we have 2 strong young pgs that we can count on and that affords us some flexibility. I hope whatever happens that it is a win-win for both parties as I think Felton has certainly given his all and then some to this franchise. If we are going to lose an asset like him at pg, we damn sure better get something solid in return (unlike the Felton for Diop swap that was once supposedly close to going through).

You always want credit for Felton. No one taking any thing from him. We just aren't over hyping him. You want to talk about who's unproven. Felton is just as unproven as DJ. Felton has 4 sub par yrs under his belt. He's play'd fairly well and had some good games here and there. But he's had just as many poor games. Don't let those few games from a couple weeks ago trick our eyes. There's 82 games. If you want Felton to get more credit you have to be totally honest with his faults. Feltons been in the league 4yrs, the idea he hasn't "blossomed" didn't only pop up in NC. They have talked about it before on Sports Center on the few times we aren't being used as a highlight package. He's play'd fine,He's tough, He's done this and that, I'll give you all that...ok. But just cuz he's been here his whole career doesn't make him a PG you build a franchise around. Drafting DJ is a good example of that by the newly hired legandary head coach. Why not a free agent Vet, Then draft a big? Cuz the PG coach already didn't like what he saw from the 3rd yr starting PG. Now most everyone is happy we have DJ. When actually on the court he gets atleast a B for profromance and production value. Not bad for a rookie, but it is my grade.

I'll give you DJ is a rookie and still has alot to prove. But he's play'd against most of the top PG's already and he held his own. Sometimes outscoring them off the bench. We could say DJ isn't a true point because he shoots to much. I've seen quote's from LB himself saying he wants DJ to shot more. He's a good shooter, You want that person to shot the ball. PG or not. I know DJ has shown he can shot, He did hit those Big FT's to put us into OT so he's cool under pressure. Great FT and 3pt shooter. He's a quick PG who can get to the basket easy, Just needs to learn what to do with the contact. He's a rookie, He'll get better. He's not horrible on defense, But Felton isn't a lock down defender himself. Good court vision and passing skils.The only thing DJ hasn't shown is that his body is ready. But i stated before it takes time for someone his size to get used to 82 games, He'll get stronger. He doesn't want to be like Sean May. So other then his health what does DJ have to prove? He's already started this season and had great numbers when playin 40 mins. If i'm picking my future PG I'll go with DJ, You feel Felton has what it takes...Good Luck...We'll see what the FO has to say about it


Sorry this is so long everyone....But good debate so far.

[etothet]

I do not believe DJ is the answer to our point guard situation. Raymond plays his butt off every night, doesn't complain, only missed 9 games in 3.5yrs. He is a stud. People complain about his field goal percentage, and it is far from the best, but he rebounds, plays good defense, and is 11th in league in assists. DJ has missed that many games in a rookie year that is not yet half over. I even like the kid but he has to prove that he can compete over more than a few games. He has not proven that he is worthy to take over this team. He shoots the jumper better but other than that, I understand the DJ hype. Raymond even makes better decisions now, so I think it is yet to be seen that DJ is point of the future. Ray is only 24 or 25. His future still looks bright. 110oldeast posted some numbers on another thread that really brings clarity to the situation. Ray Felton can play basketball. Check this out:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280229002

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280302030

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280304016

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280305030

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280307030

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280308027

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280312006

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280314010

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280316005

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280317029

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280319011

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280322030

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280325026

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280326013

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280328025

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280329022

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280331030

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280402030

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280404028

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280405030

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280408030

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280409018

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280412011

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280415017

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280416030

[Slam]

Hey 110 and etothet, that's awsome to post those box scores, but check these out!!

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=Ajvj2v0EYZrgN2HNwLnYdhAcPaB4?gid=200 9013007

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=An.pvLShfHwZCG4VRdERokYcPaB4?gid=200 9012822

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=AuyaIfK9Ngw0NDkJJ7B4ugAcPaB4?gid=200 9012511

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=AnlvLwuS80wyyAu_.MFg93AcPaB4?gid=200 9011027

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=AuiMNAkfYZdlGYXhS0izTQMcPaB4?gid=200 8122330

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=AsreCMOKg4f5btiJdCcbM4AcPaB4?gid=200 8121929

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=Au_1IS9JUhoWspu8ChEGbWwcPaB4?gid=200 8121003

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=Au1rTBQJZGDLeGCDSzloZEscPaB4?gid=200 8120814

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=AssncNKBkC4IuY3SD_X.MhYcPaB4?gid=200 8120330

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=AtTiMqEngng0Vd1ju4Q5BW4cPaB4?gid=200 8112930

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=AtA7rRZMGgBUHCit7ldSZNscPaB4?gid=200 8112628

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=AuHXo0riSTLUF.SXIwH.Mu8cPaB4?gid=200 8112101

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=Anzgp1bhWY1Vzwi86vvC_CccPaB4?gid=200 8111130

It works both ways - and boxscores NEVER tell the whole story.

[110oldeast]

Nope boxscores don't tell the whole story. You I sure as heck would be the first to say that. You can read more about the games, play by play, and other stuff that shows the good late shots and plays he made and how we had our only 3 game road winning streak, etc if folks choose to read. I can't link the games for people to watch completely, so this is the best I could do. My point in posting the boxscores I did was to show the last 25 games of last year, a really tough stretch, much of which was played without Gerald Wallace and instead with Dudley, Carroll, and Mohammed filling in and helping lead one of the most successful stretches in team history as a fulltime pg.

25 games is not a small sample size. I did not cherrypick his best performances. I put them all in there and gave a full composite. It was showing what occurred when he was put at full time pg.

Now factor in the fact that this stretch also occurred with board recognized clueless coach of Sam Vincent and it should say even more. My point was that this notion that Felton had 5 good games in a contract year and has been a bust otherwise is a load.

And Kat, I don't need folks to give Felton credit. I need people to consistently assess players through equal lenses. That's all. I have no problem admitting that Felton has faults (consistency, timing of plays, shot selection at times, concentrating on completing easy finishes at the basket consistently, etc.), but I don't post as much on them, b/c there are enough people on this board shading facts to make it look like ALL he has is faults. And Felton has outplayed Deron Williams multiple times in WINS here, he has outplayed Paul before, he has held his own with Parker, Nash, etc. He certainly needs to improve his consistency, but the guy has had more than "small moments" that are "equal" to that of DJ Augustin at this time.

Finally, I would love to have BOTH guys. Unlike others, I am not trying to run off DJ for Felton's sake. DJ has a lot of strengths and I would love to see us have depth instead of Feltom playing marathon minutes. So, to try to point me as the guy who is being biased just for one guy is disengenuous when we have others looking to trade the guy who's producing for the "hope" of what the other can do. And no, I am not going to buy into this notion that they both have had similar amounts of flashes, b/c it's not true.

As I said, if the guy's asking price is "astronomical," MOVE him and I mean before the deadline. I am not about the Bobcats overpaying someone AGAIN and handicapping what we can do. But if the guy can be signed for a reasonable price, I don't see the notion of moving him just cause the young guy "might" turn out to be better.




Hey 110 and etothet, that's awsome to post those box scores, but check these out!!

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=Ajvj2v0EYZrgN2HNwLnYdhAcPaB4?gid=200 9013007

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=An.pvLShfHwZCG4VRdERokYcPaB4?gid=200 9012822

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=AuyaIfK9Ngw0NDkJJ7B4ugAcPaB4?gid=200 9012511

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=AnlvLwuS80wyyAu_.MFg93AcPaB4?gid=200 9011027

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=AuiMNAkfYZdlGYXhS0izTQMcPaB4?gid=200 8122330

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=AsreCMOKg4f5btiJdCcbM4AcPaB4?gid=200 8121929

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=Au_1IS9JUhoWspu8ChEGbWwcPaB4?gid=200 8121003

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=Au1rTBQJZGDLeGCDSzloZEscPaB4?gid=200 8120814

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=AssncNKBkC4IuY3SD_X.MhYcPaB4?gid=200 8120330

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=AtTiMqEngng0Vd1ju4Q5BW4cPaB4?gid=200 8112930

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=AtA7rRZMGgBUHCit7ldSZNscPaB4?gid=200 8112628

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=AuHXo0riSTLUF.SXIwH.Mu8cPaB4?gid=200 8112101

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=Anzgp1bhWY1Vzwi86vvC_CccPaB4?gid=200 8111130

It works both ways - and boxscores NEVER tell the whole story.

[etothet]

I not afraid of the whole story. That what I've been saying the whole time. Folks are saying DJ is the future and yes his story has not even developed. I not afraid of Ray's numbers because I've said his fg percentage sucks. In those games you picked out, he led most of the games in assists, he rebounded the ball, and had some steals. The other thing is that he shows up every night and plays hard whether hurt or not. I mean, those games don't disprove anything that I've said. And lastly, I would like to see the Bobcats keep Raymond because of the intangibles. DJ is only shooting .398% from the field. His free throw percentage is wonderful, but does that make him the PG of the future.

[Slam]

My point was that this notion that Felton had 5 good games in a contract year and has been a bust otherwise is a load.
Totally agree. I don't know the kid other than what I see on TV, but I seriously doubt he is worried about his next contract and he's not going out of his way to "pay for it". He just goes out and plays the way he does night after night because he loves the game and he loves his team. That I am 100% sure of.

He's always shown glimpses, it's just a matter of him turning them into a consistent standard for me.

Like I have always said, I sort of wish he was a locker room cancer or had a bad persona or was a lazy bum. That would make it easy.

What makes it hard is that he is SO easy to root for because he is so pure.

[Ghost Kat]

It's getting a little late in the year, I would have said there's not chance for Felton to be traded this year since we have so many injured, Then they trade Morrison and that leads me to believe Felton will be here for the rest of the year even more. Felton plays hard, I'll give him that. I don't think this Franchise can afford to bring him back though.

[spectre]

Yah, I think this latest move pretty much assures it; in fact we're hurting for depth at the 2 badly now.

Singletary has a huge opportunity staring him in the face. Hopefully he can stand up to it.