Augustin = Terry?

[dnbman]

If this seems ridiculously obvious, my apologies.

But, I was just thinking about how Jason Terry is a supersub for Dallas, a guy who can play both positions, but is primarily instant offense off the bench.

What about keeping Felton and using Augustin as our version of Terry? As some people have said, it's not who starts the game, but who finishes the game.

Augustin and Felton seem like they can easily co-exist. There's plenty of minutes to go around even with Raja in the mix.

So, we sign Felton for whatever reasonable deal we can get. The good thing is that good point guards are easy to trade should we fun into a position where we just can't find enough time for both of them.

[Slam]

I think (or at least would hope?) that everyone would love to keep them both, but this:


So, we sign Felton for whatever reasonable deal we can get.

will be key.

[davcbow]

I just hope Felt's love for the team out weighs his desire for the big money contract. :cool:

[dnbman]

I just hope Felt's love for the team out weighs his desire for the big money contract. :cool:

That's a tough one. It's hard to blame a guy for wanting an extra $20M rather than stay with a team. I just hope both Felton and management do each other right.

[TattoodCats4life]

I just hope Felt's love for the team out weighs his desire for the big money contract. :cool:

I think his love for the game and love for being close to home will help us retain him... I think the local factor could save us a million a year on his contract, but that's double edged...If he is playing way above his contract it may turn into a situation where everyone wants him and makes us an offer we cant refuse... Its going to be a tightrope for his agent and our FO to walk this summer.

[SirBobcat]

I think Felton is more like Terry to me. Augustin is a much better distributor than Terry.

[Chef]

we should let felton know that if he resigns here for less $ than he could otherwise get we will start a grassroots plan to get as many fans as possible to buy his bobcats jersey. with our huge legion of fans it should net him a bunch of cash. think about it, 200 fans x $100 for a jersey. kobe and yao would have nothing on him.

[ohara831]

People thought Julius Peppers would stay with the Panthers and stay close to home also. But he's walking away from huge money just to get out and go elsewhere. You dont know what is truly in someone's gameplan until the time comes. Right now, talk is just that. When it comes time for action from both mgmnt and Felton, we will see. But I dont put any stock in hoping someone wants to stay near home, especially when you are asking them to take several million less in money as a hometown discount. I cant blame Ray if he yells from the rooftops "Show me the money!!!"

[Slam]

I've never ever put any stock into the whole "home town discount" type thing, but for some reason I think that it would apply to Felts.

Remember that he phoned BB the night before or morning of the draft begging him to draft him so that he would remain close to home. He loves it in Charlotte and I really think that he would want to stay and maybe even slice a few $$$$ in order to do so.

Could be wrong though.

[dnbman]

I think Felton is more like Terry to me. Augustin is a much better distributor than Terry.

Maybe. This stuff can get silly trying to make comparisons. However, I see Felton as a better two way player for the duration of the game. Whether or not Augustin is a better distributor than Terry, I can say. However, Augustin would be a much better scorer off the bench (the instant offense) than Felton.

I guess I see Felton as a grind it out type player who ultimately pays dividends over the course of the game.

[Slam]

Maybe. This stuff can get silly trying to make comparisons.
I think with the way that DJ is currently being used that Jet is a very good comparison.

[TattoodCats4life]

I cant blame Ray if he yells from the rooftops "Show me the money!!!"

Yeah yeah, i'll play ball, just SHOW ME THE MONEY...now you say it, SHOW ME THE MONEY, no no louder, like you mean it... SHOW ME THE MONEY... do you love the black man.. I LOVE THE BLACK MAN, SHOW ME THE MONEY...

Sorry...wonderous movie my wife got me to watch a few weeks ago :)

[Ghost Kat]

What has Felton done to deserve a big contract? He's play'd hard enough to be resigned but by no means does he need a big long term deal. I thought everyone was trying to keep cap space for the summer of Lebron.

[dnbman]

What has Felton done to deserve a big contract? He's play'd hard enough to be resigned but by no means does he need a big long term deal. I thought everyone was trying to keep cap space for the summer of Lebron.

Quality two-way point guards are tough to come by. Hopefully, the market is bare. However, Felton's going to attract some folks.

[davcbow]

We need to do everything we can do to try and keep him short of jeopardizing our future....:cool:

[TheBeagle]

People thought Julius Peppers would stay with the Panthers and stay close to home also. But he's walking away from huge money just to get out and go elsewhere. You dont know what is truly in someone's gameplan until the time comes. Right now, talk is just that. When it comes time for action from both mgmnt and Felton, we will see. But I dont put any stock in hoping someone wants to stay near home, especially when you are asking them to take several million less in money as a hometown discount. I cant blame Ray if he yells from the rooftops "Show me the money!!!" As for the Pep allusion, Raymond is the anti-Pep; he's ebuliant, hardworking, and has actually professed his desire to play and stay in Charlotte. Pep has never said anything of the sort as far as I know. I think it's more of an assumption by folks that Pep would stay here throughout his career seeing as how every down of football he's played in his life has been for a North Carolina team of one sort or another.

Don't get me wrong, I'll always love Pep, especially for his tenacity as a Tarheel basketball reserve, but he's pretty damn flaky and has questionable work ethic.....Raymond is nothing like this.

Though the Pep allusion doesn't work for me, I'm with you on not denying Raymond as much money as he can get, wherever that takes him.

[Ghost Kat]

Quality two-way point guards are tough to come by. Hopefully, the market is bare. However, Felton's going to attract some folks.


The reason I asked that is it seems this franchise is intent on making Felton a 2 way guard. What makes Felton a SG? Why do they keep talking bout using him in that spot?. I guess if he wants a spot on the team that might be the only way to keep him. Felton is a good PG but a horrible SG

[Ampsportsduo]

The reason I asked that is it seems this franchise is intent on making Felton a 2 way guard. What makes Felton a SG? Why do they keep talking bout using him in that spot?. I guess if he wants a spot on the team that might be the only way to keep him. Felton is a good PG but a horrible SG

What have the done to imply they are "intent" on making him a SG? Typically, it's DJ that slides into that position, and the two of them in the backcourt together has largely been out of necessity, not choice.

[dnbman]

The reason I asked that is it seems this franchise is intent on making Felton a 2 way guard. What makes Felton a SG? Why do they keep talking bout using him in that spot?. I guess if he wants a spot on the team that might be the only way to keep him. Felton is a good PG but a horrible SG

By two way guard, I meant both sides of the court-- offense and defense. Sorry for the confusion. I agree that Felton is a better pg than sg, which is exactly why I see DJ as a Terry type player, more of a shooter than a distributor, though certainly capable. I think DJ's games and how Larry has used him as bared this out.

[ballwhore]

D.J. is pushing and playing out of his mind to show he does not want to come off of the bench. How can we keep all the nice pieces we have if we give Felton a big contract. The new guys we have all are making nice coin not to mention Gerald Wallace and 50's contract. I doubt Bob Johnson is interested in paying any luxury tax. Everybody loves Raymond (Ha!) but he is replaceable and his replacement is in the same uniform.

[Ampsportsduo]

D.J. is pushing and playing out of his mind to show he does not want to come off of the bench. How can we keep all the nice pieces we have if we give Felton a big contract. The new guys we have all are making nice coin not to mention Gerald Wallace and 50's contract. I doubt Bob Johnson is interested in paying any luxury tax. Everybody loves Raymond (Ha!) but he is replaceable and his replacement is in the same uniform.

Being over the cap doesn't kick in the luxury tax, and other than Raymond Felton, the other guys entering free agency are all very small contracts.

[davcbow]

Ray is making 5.5 mil now and we are a good 7 mil from the lux tax...:cool:

[Ghost Kat]

What have the done to imply they are "intent" on making him a SG? Typically, it's DJ that slides into that position, and the two of them in the backcourt together has largely been out of necessity, not choice.

The "intent" comes from LB,MJ and everyone else calling him a combo guard. The intent comes from Jordan himself saying Felton can play the 2 spot. I think thats one of the only ways they can resign Felton. Playing him at SG means he's more free to use his natural skills but that also turns him into a scorer which for isn't a good thing to try.

When DJ and Felton play together I usually see DJ bring the ball up court. But they alternate also. DJ is a far better scoring threat then Felton but since Felton is bigger it just makes more sense for him to be listed as the SG.

[Chef]

i'll have to admit, i agree with ballwhore and think his the best post on here. he has a checkered past, but this is right on. we love raymond because he works hard, is loyal and wants to stay here. these are the exact same reasons we re-signed matty c. if you are looking at this objectively 1. dj is our pg of the future 2. raymond is not a sg. so unless he is ok signing a deal that will provide him with regressing playing time each season, he is not going to be happy and it won't work out anyway.

[polarcat]

i agree with ballwhore and chef's line of thinking. raymond is doing everything right and he & dj work off each other very well when in the lineup together. at the end of the day i think personal vs. business comes into play with felton. he's finally stepping it up and playing well and is a warrior of a player. within the business side of things though, how do you share minutes if dj is our pg of the future and raymond isn't a true 2 guard. additionally, felton's stock might be at its highest since he's been in the league, so selling high is a good thing and would net us the best return for the team in the long run. it's tough because at the same time, this team is playing the best basketball i think in their 5 years as a franchise. felton's chemistry is a huge thing, so trading him might disrupt the locker room. at the same time, down the road either of these two guys don't get the minutes they desire, then that would be a disruption as well. if lb can re-sign felts to a decent contract and figure out a way to have ray, dj, bell, and the sg we draft rotate without causing problems, then i'd prefer to keep the warrior. he's had ups and downs here, but larry has put him on the right path and gotten the most out of raymond. plus, i don't think dj would be as far along if he didn't have felton's guidance and help.

[dnbman]

i agree with ballwhore and chef's line of thinking. raymond is doing everything right and he & dj work off each other very well when in the lineup together. at the end of the day i think personal vs. business comes into play with felton. he's finally stepping it up and playing well and is a warrior of a player. within the business side of things though, how do you share minutes if dj is our pg of the future and raymond isn't a true 2 guard. additionally, felton's stock might be at its highest since he's been in the league, so selling high is a good thing and would net us the best return for the team in the long run. it's tough because at the same time, this team is playing the best basketball i think in their 5 years as a franchise. felton's chemistry is a huge thing, so trading him might disrupt the locker room. at the same time, down the road either of these two guys don't get the minutes they desire, then that would be a disruption as well. if lb can re-sign felts to a decent contract and figure out a way to have ray, dj, bell, and the sg we draft rotate without causing problems, then i'd prefer to keep the warrior. he's had ups and downs here, but larry has put him on the right path and gotten the most out of raymond. plus, i don't think dj would be as far along if he didn't have felton's guidance and help.

How do you know DJ is the point guard of the future though? He's done a great job of scoring, no doubt. He looks like he'll be solid. However, you're ready to get rid of a guy who is looking great on the assumption that DJ is the guy.

Look at it this way: if we sign Felton, we can trade him later should DJ become the clear cut pg. In the meantime, we actually have a little depth that would disappear unless we got some quality parts in return.

The other thing is that DJ hasn't proven to me (and I'm giving him plenty of time to do so; I don't expect everything now) that he can be a quality defender and continue to get everyone involved. He's done an incredible job of scoring, but that's exactly what Felton did his rookie season.

This is the way I see it: Felton is a point guard that brings a lot of skill on both sides of the ball. With better players around him, he has done a great job of distributing the ball. He's the kind of guy, like a lesser version of Kidd, that does so many things that his shot becomes less of a concern.

Meanwhile, DJ is a perfect guy to take over when need be and score in bunches off the bench. But is he a guy that's going to be a 40 minute guard that plays well on both sides of the ball? He may be. But, I'm not sure yet.

If nothing else, we can use DJ for a couple of seasons in such a capacity and then trade Felton when he only has a couple of years left on his contract. That's when we'd have to pay Augustin anyway.

I just much prefer having something like Felton and Raja starting with a supersub like DJ than have DJ and Raja starting with a mediocre back-up. And, we can pay to keep those three together for at least the next few seasons.

[davcbow]

How do you know DJ is the point guard of the future though? He's done a great job of scoring, no doubt. He looks like he'll be solid. However, you're ready to get rid of a guy who is looking great on the assumption that DJ is the guy.

Look at it this way: if we sign Felton, we can trade him later should DJ become the clear cut pg. In the meantime, we actually have a little depth that would disappear unless we got some quality parts in return.

The other thing is that DJ hasn't proven to me (and I'm giving him plenty of time to do so; I don't expect everything now) that he can be a quality defender and continue to get everyone involved. He's done an incredible job of scoring, but that's exactly what Felton did his rookie season.

This is the way I see it: Felton is a point guard that brings a lot of skill on both sides of the ball. With better players around him, he has done a great job of distributing the ball. He's the kind of guy, like a lesser version of Kidd, that does so many things that his shot becomes less of a concern.

Meanwhile, DJ is a perfect guy to take over when need be and score in bunches off the bench. But is he a guy that's going to be a 40 minute guard that plays well on both sides of the ball? He may be. But, I'm not sure yet.

If nothing else, we can use DJ for a couple of seasons in such a capacity and then trade Felton when he only has a couple of years left on his contract. That's when we'd have to pay Augustin anyway.

I just much prefer having something like Felton and Raja starting with a supersub like DJ than have DJ and Raja starting with a mediocre back-up. And, we can pay to keep those three together for at least the next few seasons.

I agree totally... Ray is now and DJ is future... resign Ray and let DJ learn the skillset he will need. Then when its time to resign DJ then go the trade route, weather it be Ray or DJ involved in the trade.... I want to keep both for now....:cool:

[polarcat]

i'm not for moving ray out.... in fact my preference is for him to stay. i just hope that he and dj can co-exist for the next few years like they have this year. i would hate for a situation like we had a few years ago with brevin and felton, and how it kinda stunted felton's growth a little. i think they play well off of each other and can spell each other when raja is in. i also think part of dj's confidence on the court comes from felton being there with him. i'd hate to see the patience that we spent with raymond shipped out this quickly with only half a season under lb.

[davcbow]

i'm not for moving ray out.... in fact my preference is for him to stay. i just hope that he and dj can co-exist for the next few years like they have this year. i would hate for a situation like we had a few years ago with brevin and felton, and how it kinda stunted felton's growth a little. i think they play well off of each other and can spell each other when raja is in. i also think part of dj's confidence on the court comes from felton being there with him. i'd hate to see the patience that we spent with raymond shipped out this quickly with only half a season under lb.

I think the main problem with the Brevin -vs- Felts issue wasnt Felton at all, it was Brevin thinking this young guy is gonna show me up. Felts isnt like that at all, he and DJ are good friends and they work together well. Lb is a very smart man so he isnt going to use them in a away that would cause trouble between them.... Just my 2 cents....:cool:

[dnbman]

I think the main problem with the Brevin -vs- Felts issue wasnt Felton at all, it was Brevin thinking this young guy is gonna show me up. Felts isnt like that at all, he and DJ are good friends and they work together well. Lb is a very smart man so he isnt going to use them in a away that would cause trouble between them.... Just my 2 cents....:cool:

The other argument with Brevin was that he was a career journeyman nearing the end of his career. So, why give him big minutes (especially since we were losing) when we could be developing Felton? That's a completely different situation than having a young possible star pg in Felton in front of the rookie.

[TattoodCatswife]

What I don't understand is if DJ isn't the future then why did we bother drafting DJ over Lopez? There had to have been something in Felton that Larry saw that he didn't like to have Larry make that decision to draft DJ...

[dnbman]

What I don't understand is if DJ isn't the future then why did we bother drafting DJ over Lopez? There had to have been something in Felton that Larry saw that he didn't like to have Larry make that decision to draft DJ...

This has been discussed a lot, but I boil it down to the main points:
* He thought DJ was the best player available and we needed a pg.
* He wasn't sure what he had in Felton, since Felton's NBA development differed from his college game. DJ gave him a safe backup if Felton wasn't a true pg.
* He could get a quality big with a later pick but wasn't convinced he could get a quality pg with a later pick.
* There was considerable doubt that Lopez and Okafor would play well together.


Again, just because a player is drafted high by any team doesn't cement them as the player of the future for that position. Only the first few picks in the draft are usually definite starters.

[TattoodCatswife]

Well, I really hope we don't get rid of DJ cuz he is a really good player and it'd be a shame to see him go...

[spectre]

What I don't understand is if DJ isn't the future then why did we bother drafting DJ over Lopez? There had to have been something in Felton that Larry saw that he didn't like to have Larry make that decision to draft DJ...

Why would it be a surprise that we would take a PG when we only had one on the roster? Larry has said repeatedly that he wants THREE PGs.

Everyone saw the train wreck we had last year and the year before in regard to backup PGs... BK with 45 games in '06...Kevin Burleson...McInnis...the midget. Not to say they didn't have questions about Felton, but there's no way we could do anything with no depth at PG.

Besides, I think they felt sure they could get a big with the 20th pick.

Regardless...since DJ is on a rookie deal for 3 more years why does this have to be decided now?

[dnbman]

Well, I really hope we don't get rid of DJ cuz he is a really good player and it'd be a shame to see him go...

No doubt! But most of the great teams have three great guards. That's why I made the comparison of DJ to Jet.

I don't want to get rid of DJ now. But the same things people are saying about DJ, people were saying about Felton a few years ago. Of course, Felton had to be the point guard through a couple of horrible seasons in terms of coaching and reliable players next to him.

[Slam]

I don't want to get rid of DJ now. But the same things people are saying about DJ, people were saying about Felton a few years ago.
What things were those?

[dnbman]

What things were those?

Great scorer, point guard of the future, better for the team than the starting pg, etc.

[Slam]

Great scorer, point guard of the future, better for the team than the starting pg, etc.
Don't you find it interesting/concerning that after all this time there are still questions marks attached to all of those questions when it comes to Felts?

It was a given he would/should be better than the others he was competing against (BK, Hurleson, McMinus, the Midget), but now he is being compared to a real PG (not saying Felts ins't a real PG, I'm saying those other guys aren't), things aren't so cut and dry.

[dnbman]

Don't you find it interesting/concerning that after all this time there are still questions marks attached to all of those questions when it comes to Felts?

It was a given he would/should be better than the others he was competing against (BK, Hurleson, McMinus, the Midget), but now he is being compared to a real PG (not saying Felts ins't a real PG, I'm saying those other guys aren't), things aren't so cut and dry.

That's true. But unlike a rookie pg, Felton is having to unlearn habits built from often being the best scoring option on the team that had poor offensive strategy. I think we're seeiing the transformation that many of Felton's proponents have been suggesting. Finally, he's got legitimate options at each position and a real tactician drawing up plays.

I think most would phrase the question in terms of "will (if ever) he get it," not "can he get it?" Clearly, he's "getting it" and has proven to be durable and scrappy. He's a guy I can see really making an impact over a seven game series, a grind it out warrior type.

[Slam]

That's true. But unlike a rookie pg, Felton is having to unlearn habits built from often being the best scoring option on the team that had poor offensive strategy.
I don't buy that.

His rookie year he averaged 11fga per game.

In Dec of this year (since the trade that brought us Boris and Raja) he's averaged around 13fga per game.

So with more fire power around him and with better coaching, he's actually shooting more.


I think we're seeiing the transformation that many of Felton's proponents have been suggesting.
This I can agree with. He's drives are a LOT better than ever and he is rebounding better than ever.

[davcbow]

What I don't understand is if DJ isn't the future then why did we bother drafting DJ over Lopez? There had to have been something in Felton that Larry saw that he didn't like to have Larry make that decision to draft DJ...

I read some where cant remember where I read it but LB said you give him 3 good point gaurds and 3 good centers and he can compete with any team in the league....:cool:

[dnbman]

I don't buy that.

His rookie year he averaged 11fga per game.

In Dec of this year (since the trade that brought us Boris and Raja) he's averaged around 13fga per game.

So with more fire power around him and with better coaching, he's actually shooting more.


This I can agree with. He's drives are a LOT better than ever and he is rebounding better than ever.

Yeah, but I never thought the number of shots he was taking was a problem, it was the quality of the shots. His rookie year, he played 8 less minutes a game, so really he's shooting about the same number or shots per minute. (around .33, or something like that.)

To me the questions were always about the kinds of shots he was taking and how he was getting his teammates involved. We didn't have much offensive strategy at all outside of the pick and roll. The offense was stagnant, so he seemed to try and just create his own shot more than he looked for others.

13 shots a game is about standard (if ever so slightly on the high side) for most starting pgs, especially ones playing the minutes that he does.

Again, this guy never thought of himself as Marbury. He was just trying to do whatever he thought it took for his team to win. He finally has a coach who can explain to him how to be more effective and efficient. His fg% in January was .426, showing that he was hitting a higher rate of his shots too, until Wallace and then Raja go out and he feels like he has to take over more.