Raymond Felton's poor FG%

[ziggy]

I really don't want this to turn into a bashing Raymond thread, We've had plenty of those.

I would just like to understand why his FG% remains so low. Is it poor mechanics, bad form, taking bad shots, forcing shots? What?

Some of you out there with a keener technical eye than me, give me your opinions.

He is a career 39.8% shooter and has gone a painful 15-50 over the past 3 games.

[davcbow]

I really don't want this to turn into a bashing Raymond thread, We've had plenty of those.

I would just like to understand why his FG% remains so low. Is it poor mechanics, bad form, taking bad shots, forcing shots? What?

Some of you out there with a keener technical eye than me, give me your opinions.

He is a career 39.8% shooter and has gone a painful 15-50 over the past 3 games.

I think he thinks about it too much...thus my choke comment about him.... I now call him Mr Choke....:cool:

[ALong13]

I just think he takes unnecessary shots...For example, he can be having a great nite passing wise wither everyone hitting shots, but then he's got to go and take stupid shots, and plenty of them...I mean when your point guard is taking the most shots on your team...somethings wrong with that IMO...Pass then shoot...not the otherway around...

[ohara831]

It is just maddening. One game he is great, the next you get so mad you want to trade him. And it just repeats itself like a broken record. Over and over again. Maddening.

[WAM9]

I also have seen many times where the shot clock is running down to a second or two when he gets the ball passed back to him. I'm certainly not saying there aren't other issues but, a lot of his poor shot selection (and therefore poor FG%) are due to getting the ball passed from a teammate and him forcing it up at the end of the clock. Against the Lakers, we had at least 2 24 second violations and many possesions where we threw up a bad shot at the end. I do love seeing the passing though and that also leads to open looks. Sometimes, we tend to make 1 too many passes...

I'd sure rather see us tend to make one pass too many though than one pass too few. I don't know the stat but we have to be toward the top of the league in assists to made FG ratio.

Felton has showed major improvement this year and I expect his FG% to rise over the next couple of seasons.

[Slam]

I just think he takes unnecessary shots...For example, he can be having a great nite passing wise wither everyone hitting shots, but then he's got to go and take stupid shots, and plenty of them...I mean when your point guard is taking the most shots on your team...somethings wrong with that IMO...Pass then shoot...not the otherway around...
I agree with all of this.

Got to add though - he has improved immensley with his driving to the hole and finishing. Also, the added tear drop has been very, very nice.

He just needs to stop forcing his shots and taking unnecessary shots IMO.

[TattoodCats4life]

He's getting better... About 5-6 shots per game are less than 3 seconds on the clock or attempts at buzzer beaters, which kill his FG% (the buzzer beaters also hurt Ammo's FG% but that's another story).

If we pick a true PG early in this draft though I think that'd be a tell-tale sign that brown is done (again I doubt this).

[110oldeast]

This is a WAY overlooked portion of it. He by no means is lighting it up, but it SUCKS that he is often put back in for thest last second heaves at the end of quarters. Everytime he throws up one of those halfcourt shots, it irks me b/c I know the fg% analysts won't bring this up when throwing up shooting numbers. The thing is to his credit, he could care less and isn't obsessed with these things and is willing to take that chance even though it tends to cause more statistical harm than good.

The NBA UNLIKE college counts last second heaves as official shots. It's why you will see some guys pass the attempt to someone else or shoot it "just after" the buzzer, as it is a fg% killer. Considering Felton gets the abundance of these shots by a mile, it is enough to knock down his numbers overall. It doesn't take it from 50 to 40% but definitely can take him from 43% (not great but acceptable for a pg who can bring other things to the table) to 40% and his 3 pt % from 33 or so to below 30.

He also is the only guy on the team who can create a shot from anywhere, which means that he will get those end of clock situations a lot more. We have guys who can make plays certain situations. But he is the only one for better and worse who can do that from anywhere on the floor (leading to more of those attempts). We don't have that Brandon Roy, Paul Pierce type who can isolate from anywhere on the court and make a shot or play. So Felton takes on that burden. It's the reason why many folks have wanted to get that type of 2 guard to complete the team despite recognizing the value in what Raja brings.

The other part of the equation that is ignored is the point that Robert makes about Bell. With Felton playing as many minutes as he does (TOO many considering his role) and having to work on defense as much as he does (he rarely gets an assignment that you give to a guy you're trying to hide or preserve), it is often going to take your legs away. He has to realize this at times and adjust, but at the same time cannot just ignore open shots within the flow of the offense as that puts more pressure on your teammates. He's gotta find that balance. Beyond that, it is a matter of shoring up mechanics, confidence, and shot selection.

Finally, he has to figure out how to get to the line. This is the dirty little secret about fg percentages. There are plenty of guys who miss a lot of shots, but get bailed out due to foul calls that don't turn up as fgas. I think his body type hurts him as he doesn't get the same protection that more frail guards get. And he hasn't earned the repuation to protect him as a star gets. Just the same, whether it is LB pre-emptively working the refs or whatever, he's gotta find the way to get to the line more. This could improve fg percentage, but also build confidence while seeing the ball go through the hole.




He's getting better... About 5-6 shots per game are less than 3 seconds on the clock or attempts at buzzer beaters, which kill his FG% (the buzzer beaters also hurt Ammo's FG% but that's another story).

If we pick a true PG early in this draft though I think that'd be a tell-tale sign that brown is done (again I doubt this).

[110oldeast]

Agreed on these points.


I agree with all of this.

Got to add though - he has improved immensley with his driving to the hole and finishing. Also, the added tear drop has been very, very nice.

He just needs to stop forcing his shots and taking unnecessary shots IMO.

[Proudiddy]

I've been thinking about this a lot myself lately... While I've played at the college level, I drew a comparison between Felton and myself - It's obvious the guy has got the ability to get to the hole pretty much whenever he wants. But while that is a great advantage, it is also a flaw. When I've played, I usually know I have the quickest first step on the court, and thus, I can get to the basket when I want. Problem was, is that once I got there I'd usually throw up a shot/floater/layup that wouldn't be considered a high percentage shot.

I've seen Felton do this too many time to count. Much like I would usually do, it seems he's so set on getting past that 1st defender that once he does it, he seems to view it as an accomplishment and then anything after that is cake. So the shot resulting from his drive usually is not high percentage, he's just putting up some kind of shot to get it towards the rim. While if he makes it he may make it on Sportscenter's Top 10, if he misses it, he can just say he got to the basket.

My friend I trained with referred to this kind of shot as a "dipsy doo"... Basically saying that it looks great (usually the up-and-under), but it's not always necessary and you would usually end up being better off just going hard to the rim and straight up with the shot. I've seen Felton do this so many times... The style of shot he takes is unecessary.

In addition to all that, I can't tell you how many times I've seen him bring the ball up, cross halfcourt, maybe give a in-and-out move, crossover, whatever, and then jack a shot up with 18 secs left on the shot clock. It's a low percentage shot. He may take a 15-20 foot jumper like Chris Paul does, but Chris Paul takes it at a higher percentage... Watch both of them and see the difference. Chris Paul finds that hole in the defense where he can pull up and no one really has a chance to block it, Felton usually is well-defended.

The last thing that I think contributes to his low FG% is that he often ends up with the ball late in the clock as well and jacks a shot up that has little chance of going in.

Bottom line - all this comes down to decision making.

[Slam]

This is a WAY overlooked portion of it. He by no means is lighting it up, but it SUCKS that he is often put back in for thest last second heaves at the end of quarters. Everytime he throws up one of those halfcourt shots, it irks me b/c I know the fg% analysts won't bring this up when throwing up shooting numbers. The thing is to his credit, he could care less and isn't obsessed with these things and is willing to take that chance even though it tends to cause more statistical harm than good.

I actually don't agree with this. In fact, I think it's a bit of a cop out.

The amount of half court shots Vs the amount of regular shots he misses wouldn't be enough to seriously effect his fg%.

I mean, he shot 7/20 last night. How many of them were from half court? Were 6 or more of them from half court, because that's how many there would have had to have been for him to have a 50% night from the floor.

Know what I mean?

[spectre]

It's not just half court shots, but also shots at the end of the shot clock...he usually takes 2 or 3 of those a game as well. I've noticed in the last few games (the Indiana game in particular) where we overpass and most times Felton is the guy who has to rush up a shot.

Take 3 away from the total and that would give him 7 of 17...which is slightly better than 40%.

He also logged almost 49 minutes last night; with 20 shots he averaged about one shot every 2 1/2 minutes (Crash averaged 1 ever 2 minutes).

Regardless, he's not a good shooter. We know that. To get around it you have to limit the harder % of shots...and to do THAT the guys around him have to be scoring. We weren't doing that consistently last night.

Raja means a lot to this group, but not only for his defense. When he's on we're VERY tough to beat...and I'd wager the stats would back that up.


I do find it highly ironic that Felton has pretty much been thrown under the bus for the loss last night...yet I don't remember him being on Ray Allen in OT one time.

[Felton for Prez]

Clearly Ray gets stuck with either the shot or game clock winding down more than others. As Slam points out, that's a factor but that that doesn't change the fact that he's not a good shooter.

I think the most relevant argument so far is fatigue. He plays a lot of minutes and that's going to take its toll. The other comment I agree with is decision making. His shot selection is questionable to say the least.

Why no comments about his form? While everyone has their own form (hello Reggie Miller), Ray could benefit from some LB coaching. It appears to me that he often shoots on the way down, thus not getting his legs into his shot. That's why he has what looks more like a heave than a shot. Combine that with fatigue and you get a lot of short (even air balled) shots. Also, does he have small hands or something? I can't describe what about his follow thru that bothers me but it almost seems to come of the side of his hand. If he were always short or long, I wouldn't worry much, but shot trajectory looks like my golf ball's trajectory, slice/hook. I want Ray taking 1,000 15-18fts each day during the off season. I really don't care if he never become a good 3pt shooter, he needs to be deadly from 15-18. We have no one (Raja is closest) who seems comfortable there.

Form side note, Ray Allen has a pretty looking jump shot, but one of the flattest ball flights I've seen. I didn't think some of them were even going to make it to the rim (one didn't)

[ohara831]

Spectre is right. Ray did take too many shots and miss, and he did take that final shot which was a horrid decision. But the shot by Ray Allen to force the 2nd OT and the one to win the game, those were not Ray's defensive blunders. At least not that I've heard. I know on the last shot, Crash left Ray Allen and couldn't recover in time. That was Crash's error, and it was the game winner for Boston. LB should have chewed him out in the locker room. Ray Allen is lethal from the outside if left open. He should have been glued to Allen and let the other Cats do their own jobs.

[Slam]

Why no comments about his form? While everyone has their own form (hello Reggie Miller), Ray could benefit from some LB coaching. It appears to me that he often shoots on the way down, thus not getting his legs into his shot. That's why he has what looks more like a heave than a shot. Combine that with fatigue and you get a lot of short (even air balled) shots. Also, does he have small hands or something? I can't describe what about his follow thru that bothers me but it almost seems to come of the side of his hand. If he were always short or long, I wouldn't worry much, but shot trajectory looks like my golf ball's trajectory, slice/hook. I want Ray taking 1,000 15-18fts each day during the off season. I really don't care if he never become a good 3pt shooter, he needs to be deadly from 15-18. We have no one (Raja is closest) who seems comfortable there.
It is very compact and there isn't a lot of flow to it at all. He also tends to stick his wing out a little.

Thing about Felts is, and it's so admirable, he's a gym junkie. You just know he puts in hours and hours and hours to improve his game. Maybe his J is as good as it's ever going to get?

With his explosion and his ability to get to the rim shooting a J should always be an after thought any way.

Thought 1 = Pass
Thought 2 = Pass
Thought 3 = Drive
Thought 4 = Dish
Thought 5 = Layup
Thought 6 = Kick out
Thought 7 = Dribble through the key
Thought 8 = Shoot a J

[spectre]

^ That's a great idea...if anyone else can score.

I just looked thru the play by play for the last 4 minutes of the 4th and both OTs...which is when he checked back into the game and played til the end:

*During the end of the 4th he took 2 shots and made one of them; the one he missed there were 3 seconds left on the shot clock.

*In the 1st OT Felton took 3 shots and made one of them. His last shot came with 5 seconds left on the shot clock.

*In the 2nd OT Felton took 3 shots...missed 2 and made one. The last shot he took had 3 seconds left on the shot clock.

In that 14 minutes he took 8 shots and 3 of them were when the shot clock was within 5 seconds.

His TOs are bothering me WAY more than his shooting.

[Slam]

In that 14 minutes he took 8 shots and 3 of them were when the shot clock was within 5 seconds.
Does it show how long the ball was in his hands before there was down to 5 seconds? Eg: Was there still 8, 9 or 10 secs on the clock when he got it? Maybe longer?

Also, how many times with the 20 shots he took did he take them with more than 10 seconds left on the clock?

And really, 5 seconds is a heck of a long time in a basketball game. Hell, Raja got a VERY good look at that final 3 with less that two seconds left on the shot clock.


His TOs are bothering me WAY more than his shooting
He had been pretty good at the start of the calendar year, but the brain farts are creeping back in.

You might be right though - he might just be very, very tired. That would explain some of them.

[110oldeast]

It would be a copout if we were talking about 4 shots all year. But we aren't. He takes a ridiculous sum of these shots as well as the 2 for 1 shots near the end of the quarter. They aren't high percentage shots, but they aren't "bad decision" shots. I've seen mulltiple games where he shot 4 for 11 with 2 of those being end of quarter buzzer beater shots. That's the difference b/w 45% shooting and 37% shooting. I don't think that saying the amount of shots like this he has taken is the difference b/w 43 and 40 and 33 and 29 from 3 is a stretch at all.

I think Felton has individual things he can work on. He has worked on one with the floater. He can afford to work to continue diversifying his finishes inside, including continuing to work off one foot finishing. Beyond that he needs to work on getting a consistent base and mechanics on his jumpshot.

That said, I think it's important to distinguish Felton shots that folks view as commando like audibles from him doing what is by design. Taking a quick jumper in a 2 for 1 situation is by designed and encouraged. Running the clock down to make sure that you get the last shot is by design and not just poor management of the clock.

The problem with our end of game shots is the personnel the coach has on the floor. In those situations, you have to go unconventional to ensure that you SPREAD THE FLOOR. New Orleans always makes sure they have 3 legitimate shooters beside their offense intiator to ELIMINATE HELP DEFENSE. Boston yesterday had Rondo, House, Allen, Pierce, and Perkins on the floor so that if we made the mistake of helping off, they had guys who could make us pay the price if we helped off them (Ray Allen did multiple times--can we get an effing scouting report on this guy?!).

The Bobcats mistakenly put out their conventional lineup which makes it too easy for a team to help. Gerald and Mek's guys can sit in the lane without any concern of their players being kicked out to for jumpers. This leads to Felton midrange jumpers which are not what most of us desire, but are the most viable option in these 1-4 sets.

If LB puts DJ or Vlad out there and leaves ONE of Gerald/Mek out there as the near the basket dish option/offensive rebounder, it would be SOOOOO much more effective. In these situations, Felton can get all the way to the rim which mean that either the near the basket guy must collapse freeing up a dish or offensive board option, the guys on the perimeter help help and free up a shooter, or Felton gets all the way to the rim for a higher percentage shot/free throw oppotunity.




I actually don't agree with this. In fact, I think it's a bit of a cop out.

The amount of half court shots Vs the amount of regular shots he misses wouldn't be enough to seriously effect his fg%.

I mean, he shot 7/20 last night. How many of them were from half court? Were 6 or more of them from half court, because that's how many there would have had to have been for him to have a 50% night from the floor.

Know what I mean?

[Ghost Kat]

As the resident Felton hater, I'll try to keep my bashing to a minimum.....

Felton has never shot the ball at a high %. He has a horrible form, takes bad shots, and goes hero way to often. I read a couple posts stating that his last second shots are what brings down his %. Very untrue, He shoots those out maybe 3 -4 times a game, But that doesn't account for all the missed three's or pull up jumpers that clang off the back rim. It's easy to say we give him the ball in the last seconds because he can get create himself a shot. But thats the same as sayin give Shaq the ball in the last seconds since they know he'll get fouled...He's still not the one you want shooting the freethrow. Felton brings alot of good things to this team and I've almost changed my opinion about him. But He's this teams Rajon Rondo, Atleast Rondo keeps his shot attempts to a minimum.

[TheBeagle]

[quote=WAM9;123416]I also have seen many times where the shot clock is running down to a second or two when he gets the ball passed back to him. I'm certainly not saying there aren't other issues but, a lot of his poor shot selection (and therefore poor FG%) are due to getting the ball passed from a teammate and him forcing it up at the end of the clock. Against the Lakers, we had at least 2 24 second violations and many possesions where we threw up a bad shot at the end. I do love seeing the passing though and that also leads to open looks. Sometimes, we tend to make 1 too many passes...

quote] I agree wholeheartedly. Everyone on the team defers to Raymond when the clock is winding down. I'd almost say 4 shots a game on average are him throwing it up at the rim as the shot clock is at 2 or less.

There's no doubt though that he does force too many shots, and difficult shots at that. Big Slam is right about his tear-drop, but he doesn't use it enough; he still takes the ball in too deep and either has it swatted or throws it up in the vicinity of the rim hoping for the foul call that never ever comes.

I think fatigue also enters into the equation, plus the fact he's in a slump, but I have to think if Larry was terribly pissed about Raymond's play we'd have heard about it since Larry isn't known to hold his opinions back from the media.

I'm with spectre though; the TOs are so much more irritating and infuriating to me than FG%.

[110oldeast]

Rondo also plays with FLOOR SPREADING lineup such as the one with Pierce, Allen, and House on the floor. That is when he is at his best as it allows him to get into the lane against one defender with minimal help. That is my point about the last second play situations being Felton initiating the offense with 2 legit shooters on the wing, Boris as a pick and pop option and ONE of Gerald and Mek as the dish/offensive rebound option. If folks watch games around the leauge, you will see this type of thing on the regular. Why the Bobcats are slow to grasp this concept, I don't get.

In the current NBA where illegal defense is only called when you have a foot in the lane, you have to players on the floor who will physically stretch the defense in order to clear the lane. Playing Wallace and Mek on the floor in these last shot situations is counterproductive for this reason. Their defenders can help off them without repurcussion. Furthermore, there instincts are to get near the basket anyway only clogging the lane further. The reason the Celtics got the looks they got at the end of the game against us is b/c they had MULTIPLE players who could make you pay if you helped off on the driver (which we obliged them and did multiple times). The Bobcats had.....Raja?

And 3-4 shots out of 13 is a significant amount of shots and will affect total percentage. Again it doesn't mean he would be a 50% shooter, but it does keep the number around 40 as opposed to low to mid forties. I won't argue on the "hero" thing, b/c that is a board constant. But here's a break down of the 4th quarter of the game last night. If Felton's name were plugged in where Diaw's name is in this sequence, he would get crucified for it.

Felton goes out with the lead at 85-73 with 7:37 left after playing the entire 2nd half up until this point.

After he goes out, Boston goes on a 10-4 run over the next 3:36 including 4 unanswered.

Felton returns with 4:11 in the game.

Felton has his 2nd TO (couldn't see on TV) w/ 4:00 left.

Diaw gets his shot blocked.

Felton ends the run with a pullup to make the score 91-83 with 3:12 to go.

Big Baby dunks off a Rondo dish to make it 91-85.

Diaw turns the ball over. No Celtics score.

Bells banks the shot with 2:03 to make it 93-85.

Pierce hits jumper with 1:44 (93-87).

Diaw turns the ball over again.

Rondo hits layup to make it 93-89 with 1:17 to go.

Diaw misses a 3.

House makes jumper to make it 93-91 with 54 seconds to go.

Felton misses jumpshot.

Rondo gets bogus blocking foul call on Raja and makes 2 FTs.

Diaw misses runner.

Rondo misses layup and allows game to go to OT.


Did Diaw try to "go hero" in the 4th? Nope. Did he make some critical errors that helped lead us into some empty possessions? Yep. I'm not going to criticize him for missing the shots he did, as it happens. But if his name were Raymond Felton and had performed as he did in the 4th going 0-4 with 2 TOs, he would not hear the end of it for "losing us the game."


As the resident Felton hater, I'll try to keep my bashing to a minimum.....

Felton has never shot the ball at a high %. He has a horrible form, takes bad shots, and goes hero way to often. I read a couple posts stating that his last second shots are what brings down his %. Very untrue, He shoots those out maybe 3 -4 times a game, But that doesn't account for all the missed three's or pull up jumpers that clang off the back rim. It's easy to say we give him the ball in the last seconds because he can get create himself a shot. But thats the same as sayin give Shaq the ball in the last seconds since they know he'll get fouled...He's still not the one you want shooting the freethrow. Felton brings alot of good things to this team and I've almost changed my opinion about him. But He's this teams Rajon Rondo, Atleast Rondo keeps his shot attempts to a minimum.

[spectre]

Does it show how long the ball was in his hands before there was down to 5 seconds? Eg: Was there still 8, 9 or 10 secs on the clock when he got it? Maybe longer?

Also, how many times with the 20 shots he took did he take them with more than 10 seconds left on the clock?

And really, 5 seconds is a heck of a long time in a basketball game. Hell, Raja got a VERY good look at that final 3 with less that two seconds left on the shot clock.


He had been pretty good at the start of the calendar year, but the brain farts are creeping back in.

You might be right though - he might just be very, very tired. That would explain some of them.

Of course it doesn't, nor was I implying that Felton was "perfect" and his FG% is everyone eles' fault. No doubt he can sometimes be blamed for being in the position of taking the last shot but that doesn't matter; we're talking purely about %.

I disagree about 5 seconds being a long time...24 seconds isn't a long time. If no one is moving in the offense and it falls upon you to "make something happen" then 5 seconds is nothing. If he passes to someone else (or if the ball is passed to him, which happens a lot) and the clock is under 5 seconds then you have to shoot NOW.

Raja was spotted up waiting for the pass and his defender was floating between him and doubling.

*Edited to add that Boston's agressiveness at the end didn't help either; lots of players were making mistakes because of that too.

[Mr Guy]

I read a couple posts stating that his last second shots are what brings down his %. Very untrue, He shoots those out maybe 3 -4 times a game, But that doesn't account for all the missed three's or pull up jumpers that clang off the back rim.

I'm not sure you get to state he takes 3 to 4 of those clock limited shots a game and still say they don't affect his percentage. The most shots he's taken in a game is 21 in the loss to Orlando in February. The second most is in the double overtime loss to Boston with 20. MOST games he's taking 9 to 13 shots a game. If he's taking just 2 or 3 buzzer beaters a game, that's 20 to 30 percent of his shots being forced and heavily guarded at the end of a shot clock, both when the defense is forcing poor shot selection and when he's deliberately burning time to eat the clock.

The real question is whether he now has the people to pass to for that to be an option. On the season, he's averaging 13 shots to 7 assists. Chris Paul, who is both a more reliable scorer and arguably has more reliable people to pass to, is averaging 15 shots to 11 assists.

Felton's numbers are extremely consistent no matter what crap job the coaching staff is done or how terrible the guys around him are playing. Despite swapping major minute players that prefer set shots for starters that create their own shots, Bell and Diaw, Felton has remained extremely consistent with his assist numbers.

So would it be nice if Felton shot a little better? Of course. But it'd also be nice if he didn't HAVE to take some of the shots he's been forced to take, and his numbers would be much different. I find it a lot easier to be grumpy about his 2.5 A/T ratio, and would prefer that be up closer to 3 or 4.

[Ghost Kat]

Did Diaw try to "go hero" in the 4th? Nope. Did he make some critical errors that helped lead us into some empty possessions? Yep. I'm not going to criticize him for missing the shots he did, as it happens. But if his name were Raymond Felton and had performed as he did in the 4th going 0-4 with 2 TOs, he would not hear the end of it for "losing us the game."

My boy 110oldeast, I was wondering if you've try to call out my comments again. I was actually looking forward to it.....I missed the Boston game so I can't comment on what Felton did in the 4th or what Diaw did. But Diaw does have a better shooting % then Felton and they shoot just about the same amount of shots in and outside of the lane. But, thats not what this thread is about. It's about Felton and his piss poor shooting which me & you have been talking bout since the summer if my memory serves me correctly. Felton point blank has a horrible jumpshot. Reguardless of all the good things he does for this team shoting is not one of them. Taking those 3-4 last second shots hurt his % because...HE CANT SHOOT... so of course a rushed Felton is even worse of a shooter. Can't blame his % on last second shots. We all watch the games, Not all his shots are last second, So whats your excuse for clanging the rest off his shots of the back rim? We can all agree Raja can shoot, DJ sure as hell has a pretty jumper, Diaw has a nice touch, Gerald has gotten better but atleast he knows what his skill set is. You don't see Wallace cross someone then take a step back jumper all off balance. But Felton does all the time. Like I said reguardless of the good things he does, He takes bad shots and has a horrible form which doesn't help either.

Edited: I forgot about my Rondo comment...Rondo has a horrible jumper too, But he atleast knows that. He doesn't shoot the ball , He just runs the offense. Now lucky him he has three allstars to play with. I was just comparing the type of player not the team he plays for. To me they are exactly the same type of player. It just so happens Rondo has the team mates he has so he doesn't have to shoot the ball. But neither does Felton at this point.

[Ghost Kat]

The real question is whether he now has the people to pass to for that to be an option. On the season, he's averaging 13 shots to 7 assists. Chris Paul, who is both a more reliable scorer and arguably has more reliable people to pass to, is averaging 15 shots to 11 assists.

Felton's numbers are extremely consistent no matter what crap job the coaching staff is done or how terrible the guys around him are playing. Despite swapping major minute players that prefer set shots for starters that create their own shots, Bell and Diaw, Felton has remained extremely consistent with his assist numbers.
.

I'm not sure I understand your arguement here....We are talking bout shooting %. No one here is talking about if Felton is a good passing PG or not.

[110oldeast]

Are we talking percentages or whose shots are pretty? B/c Raja has had his share of poor shooting nights including the Boston game. His shooting percentage tends to be more of a barometer for our succes than Felton's, especially b/c on the offensive end, that is what he brings to the table. Either he's making his jumpers or he's not. And I'm sorry, but there is no logic behind the idea that 2 to 4 shots out of 12-13 are irrelevant. And if he is truly clanging all his shots out, excluding the last second shots, his percentage would be about 25-30% as opposed to 40%.

Contrary to your belief, it's not about calling out "your" comments. It's about making relevant points. My only point was that talking about raw percentage numbers and discrediting this idea that taking buzzer beaters doesn't affect one's percentage. If you read my post entirely, you would see the points I made about what he could do individually to improve is consistency.

Finally, my point was not about comparing Diaw and Felton anymore than to say that Boris had a really tough 4th quarter, but it wasn't him "going hero." This is a bogus board phenomenon that is played out. I was also saying if Felton had done that, he would be hearing the bulk of the criticism. He didn't and he still is hearing a good portion of it.

And you correctly characterized Rondo's situation, as we are in agreeance over that.


My boy 110oldeast, I was wondering if you've try to call out my comments again. I was actually looking forward to it.....I missed the Boston game so I can't comment on what Felton did in the 4th or what Diaw did. But Diaw does have a better shooting % then Felton and they shoot just about the same amount of shots in and outside of the lane. But, thats not what this thread is about. It's about Felton and his piss poor shooting which me & you have been talking bout since the summer if my memory serves me correctly. Felton point blank has a horrible jumpshot. Reguardless of all the good things he does for this team shoting is not one of them. Taking those 3-4 last second shots hurt his % because...HE CANT SHOOT... so of course a rushed Felton is even worse of a shooter. Can't blame his % on last second shots. We all watch the games, Not all his shots are last second, So whats your excuse for clanging the rest off his shots of the back rim? We can all agree Raja can shoot, DJ sure as hell has a pretty jumper, Diaw has a nice touch, Gerald has gotten better but atleast he knows what his skill set is. You don't see Wallace cross someone then take a step back jumper all off balance. But Felton does all the time. Like I said reguardless of the good things he does, He takes bad shots and has a horrible form which doesn't help either.

Edited: I forgot about my Rondo comment...Rondo has a horrible jumper too, But he atleast knows that. He doesn't shoot the ball , He just runs the offense. Now lucky him he has three allstars to play with. I was just comparing the type of player not the team he plays for. To me they are exactly the same type of player. It just so happens Rondo has the team mates he has so he doesn't have to shoot the ball. But neither does Felton at this point.

[dnbman]

If you take away one shot attempt per game that is last second heave, Felton's percentage jumps almost 35 points.

Other players, of course, would also see a bump in there percentages if you did this, tempering Felton's increase in comparison to other players.

However, there's no denying that Felton takes a LOT of desperation heaves with time or the shot clock winding down.

BTW... if Felton shoots 44% or more, are we having this conversation?

[ziggy]

BTW... if Felton shoots 44% or more, are we having this conversation?
If he shoots 44%+ then I can live with that, and we aren't having this conversation.

[Ghost Kat]

This is a bogus board phenomenon that is played out.

.

Only in your mind

[spectre]

Bobcats guard Raymond Felton:

(On his shooting tonight)
"It felt good. I’ve kind of beat myself up the last five or six games because I haven’t been shooting the way I’ve wanted to, so I’ve been coming down here late at night, around 11:00, getting some shots up and working on my jumper. It felt good."

Say what you want...the guy has drive.

[dav7z]

Say what you want...the guy has drive.


Agreeded more DRIVE than any one on the team.
No one wants to talk about DJ giving up 26 fourth qurater points to Bunum a beanch player SCRUB .Or his truble on defence or just guarding any one.
Two buzy staying in Feltons grilll i guess.

[Ghost Kat]

Agreeded more DRIVE than any one on the team.
No one wants to talk about DJ giving up 26 fourth qurater points to Bunum a beanch player SCRUB .Or his truble on defence or just guarding any one.
Two buzy staying in Feltons grilll i guess.


Remind me again which one is the starting 3rd year starting PG and which is the rookie?? Shouldn't we be in Feltons grill more? I'll agree DJ's defense was lacking vs. Bynum and alot of other guards but i haven't seen Felton lock down anyone this year either.

[Ghost Kat]

If he shoots 44%+ then I can live with that, and we aren't having this conversation.


DJ shoots 43% from the field and 44% from behind the 3pt line.....just thought I'd toss that out there. Guess we"ll have to wait till next year again for Felton to improve his shot.

[dav7z]

Remind me again which one is the starting 3rd year starting PG and which is the rookie?? Shouldn't we be in Feltons grill more? I'll agree DJ's defense was lacking vs. Bynum and alot of other guards but i haven't seen Felton lock down anyone this year either.

To me Felton brings the toughness and much more defence. DJ brings much less toughness and defence but adds much more scoring . Has a much better shot. I think both adds with out geting in each others way. Felton at a decent contract only makes the team better the same can be said for DJ.
Though giving Felton over seven milion a year could be a mistake ? I see DJ as a great insurance policy right now.

[spectre]

DJ shoots 43% from the field and 44% from behind the 3pt line.....just thought I'd toss that out there. Guess we"ll have to wait till next year again for Felton to improve his shot.

Something I found a little interesting...if you subtract out the 3 ball attempts/makes from the total in FG% Felton is shooting from 2 at 43.7%. DJ is shooting 42.4%

Felton needs to get a lot better from 3, but ultimately I'd just as soon he concentrate his shot attempts more from inside the 3 line than out. On the flip DJ needs to work more on his midrange game but keep on shooting the long ball.

[walkerl]

Felton doesn't have to get better from 3pt, he needs to just stop shooting so many. take a dribble towards the basket and shoot.

[walkerl]

No doubts his heart or drive. That is not debatable. We question his skills. The fact that we can debate wether a rookie or a 4th year guy is better doesn't say much for the 4th year guy. And save the coaching excuses. Coaching does not make you a poor shooter.

I think think after 4 seasons, DJ will be a much better player than Felton, but he his own issues, mainly defense. He is as bad as Ammo on defense.

I don't know if you watch the Panthers, but Felton is like Jake Delhomme, One game they look great, the next they look like the worst player in the league, and its maddening.

[teej]

Felton is better than Jake, because he won't lose the game for you in the first quarter...but other than that you're right. They're both better than most players at their position in the league talent wise, their coaches love them, they have talent behind them waiting to shine, and they both give their best effort every game, it just doesnt always translate into a W.

[WAM9]

And save the coaching excuses. Coaching does not make you a poor shooter.

Better coaching ultimately means better looks and better looks mean a better %.

[davcbow]

Ive seen everybody on the team at times get great looks and just plain and simple miss the shots.... Thats the part of our game we need to clean up alomg with the turn overs and FG%......:cool:

[teej]

Ive seen everybody on the team at times get great looks and just plain and simple miss the shots.... Thats the part of our game we need to clean up alomg with the turn overs and FG%......:cool:

Everyone misses a few open looks, even Kobe and LeBron :o

[davcbow]

Everyone misses a few open looks, even Kobe and LeBron :o

I guess what Im talking about is that the guys on our team seem to have more bad nights than they do good nights, I am hoping next season they have more good nights than they do bad nights on offense, we already do pretty good on defense....:cool:

[teej]

I don't know if you guys listen to The BS Report or read Bill Simmons stuff, but he talks about different ways of using stats to make NBA teams better, like they do in baseball with Sabermetrics and Moneyball, but he had Daryl Morey, Houston Rockets GM, on his podcast, and they talked about the MIT conference Morey held, Mark Cuban and Kevin Pritchard (Trail Blazers GM) were there along with other basketball people, and the teams keep track of more stats than the NBA does, so I'm sure that the 'Cats have stats on Ray without buzzer beaters/shot clock beaters, without shots that should be fouls, adding in shots that shouldnt be fouls, etc. So they have a much better idea of how effective he really is than we do.