DJ & his (Lack Of) Assists [Archive]

spectre

04-04-2009, 07:51 AM

http://blogs.charlotte.com/inside_the_nba/2009/04/bell-is-silenced-i-suspect.html

I keep getting emails saying D.J. Augustin is this team's best point guard. Nope. Augustin is a talent, but he has nine assists in the past six games. Felton has that many in last night's loss.

It's actually worse; 11 assists in the last 8 games.

*Last night...1 assist in 24 minutes which came on Boris' last 3 at the end, and it was a shot Boris wouldn't normally have taken (semi-contested).

*Boston...19 minutes, 1 assist

*LAL...20 minutes, 0 assists

*NYK...26 minutes, 4 assists

*Philly...16 minutes, 0 assists

*WAS...24 minutes, 3 assists

*Indiana...21 minutes, 1 assist

*Toronto...14 minutes...1 assist

He has had a couple of good assist games in the past...notably vs. Toronto (6 in 20 minutes) and against the Clips (8 in 27), but for the most part he's been kind of weak for a PG who everyone considered "pass first".

Thoughts on why?

ohara831

04-04-2009, 08:19 AM

I've beenwondering the same thing. I wish someone would put LB on the spot in an interview and just ask him. Is he trying to make DJ more of a small 2 and telling him to focus more on scoring? Is DJ just not getting the ball to the people in the right position? I know for much of the time he is in there with the 2nd team so he's not in there with our best, but he does get a good bit of time with the starters when he plays, so I cant give him that excuse. Dont know, but not happy about it either. Gotta improve.

dnbman

04-04-2009, 08:35 AM

First off, I like Augustine as a player.

However, I NEVER understood why people thought he was a pass first pg, other than winning the Bob Cousy award. He looked like a score first guard all of the college games I saw him play. So, I didn't understand why people thought he was going to be a lot different than what we had in Felton, other than his ability to stroke it from outside.

So, I don't think it's any problem with his development. I just think he is who he is. I definitely think he can be a quality pg. However, it was a bit disingenuous by folks to label him pass first just because he was a good guard in college.

At this point, I'm see him as a Ben Gordon type, though less prolific a scorer and a bit better creator.

amour217

04-04-2009, 08:41 AM

TattoodCats4life

04-04-2009, 10:03 AM

DJhas been playing a lot of time with Felton on the court, so his first pass is to Felton, who then passes it to Diaw (for another pass) or wallace for a drive, or Oakfor for a dunk.... He is also fantastic at scoring, so he gets balls passed back on the 4th and 5th pass and puts them up for long 2, 3, or occasionally (less since the ab strain) a run to the rack for a fade away... DJ doesn't have the defense to play very much off the ball, but playing felton off the ball still leaves DJ without assists because he is a rookie and sends his first pass to Felton. I see him getting 5+ assists/night next year as he defers to felton less and less,but does lacking assists really mean he's not a great PG?

spectre

04-04-2009, 10:50 AM

In Larry Ball it does. Remember Billups' story where he thought he'd had a bad game, scoring low points on a bad % yet LB was ecstatic because he'd racked up a lot of assists?

DJ played most of the 2nd quarter last night without Felton...no assists.

I pretty much concur with DNB...the Texas games I saw Rick Barnes played him off the ball for the most part. I understand he was much better when Durant was there, but we don't have that "go to" scorer who can bail you out.

Not saying he can't pass...he can. He can make some really sweet passes. He seems very conservative tho, like he's afraid to do anything that's not a sure fire catch.

dnbman

04-04-2009, 10:54 AM

but does lacking assists really mean he's not a great PG?

No. However, his mentality is to score. He's not selfish. However, he's not the pass first point guard that people were thinking he was.

Of course, I'm one of those people that doesn't put a lot of stock into the whole "need a pass first point guard" approach. I just want my pg to try and make the best decision for whatever the situation is. If that means he doesn't take a shot or takes 30, it's all the same to me.

Part of Felton's problem is that he'll get frustrated if the offense doesn't execute for a while and then start trying to take over the game. However, when guys are moving and the offense is working, Felton will go for long periods with relatively few shots.

davcbow

04-04-2009, 12:05 PM

Ive noticed when he is in the game along with Felts, his assists are low, when he is in the game without Felton his assists go up. So I think it all depends on how he is being used on the court at the time....:cool:

110oldeast

04-04-2009, 12:08 PM

dnbman,

I agree with every single word you've said on this thread with regard to DJ and Felton. Great posts man.

Are you the one who compared DJ with Jason Terry before? If so, I agreed with it then and now.

I think DJ is a MONEY shooter and terrific scorer. I saw him as that in UT's system and never got the "pass first" thing other than it being a way of saying we need an alternative to Felton. And this was the easiest justification. I'm convinced that they could have drafted a young Starbury (not comparing DJ to him by any means) and folks would have said it was b/c we needed a "pass first pg."I think he is who he is. He is a guy who brings the ball up and "lets the offense run itself" while providing value as a scoring threat. If you double off him, you're in trouble as he is a knockdown shooter and can get by you if you buy the pump fake. He can make plays, but that is a secondary strength.

The tough thing is that when he and Felton are on the floor, the team would be better served if LB said "Ray, just keep playing pg the way you have been" and "DJ be ready to knock down shots."

Unfortunately, I think LB is gunshy to do this as this is the exact concept that started the notion of Felton being a "shoot first" or "combo" guy. He doesn't want to take DJ down that same path and stunt his development as a pg. Furthermore, the difference in strength/playing size b/w Felton and DJ leads to Felton seeming to be the more logical 2g choice despite the reality that Felton is the better creator and DJ is the better shooter.

As to Felton being on the floor affecting DJ, it seems that DJ's better stretches often occur with Felton on the floor with him.

110oldeast

04-04-2009, 12:13 PM

I will agree that he defers as a playmaker to Felton when in there often. He also often defers to Diaw as a playmaker when he is in there as well.

I just think he is more comfortable with the role of offensive scoring threat more so than facilitator. Part of this may be concerns over TOs as well. The reality is that the more you pass and try to make plays for others, the more you are going to make TOs. You have a lot better chance of avoiding TOs if you aren't adventurous in making plays for others. As a rookie fearing LB's wrath related to his TOs (see the 2nd quarter stretch where he had a couple in a short stretch as the lead dwindled), it's likely easier to allow others to take those risks.

Ive noticed when he is in the game aong with Felts, his assists are low, when he is in the game without Felton his assists go up. So I think it all depends on how he is being used on the court at the time....:cool:

Ampsportsduo

04-04-2009, 04:12 PM

I thought I was alone in this line of thinking, but there is support!

I will say that when he PGs with the bench, the scoring drop off is significant. Radman has only hit more than 1 three in the last eight games, and Diop is Diop so it's not entirely surprising that his numbers are low, but this issue points to why I believe its important to re-sign Raymond.

TOOT DADDY

04-04-2009, 08:37 PM

The second unit is just that for a reason. They are not better than the first. They don't get spacing or dive to the basket well. Look at his numbers as a starter. If Felton ran with the second group his numbers (all but shot attempts) would drop in half. If D.J. is shoot first we don't have a pass first point considering the amount of time Felton has led the team in shot attempts. The assist are lacking though but it is what it is therre is a significant drop in athletic ability and general knowledge of the game with the second unit. Next year will tell the story. 19pts 6.4 assist is more than solid coming out of college. Tells me thats someone who can pass and score. It is possible to have a pg that can do both. Six games to go:(

Slam

04-04-2009, 10:21 PM

As the others have said, he runs with the 2nd unit, a unit that hasn't been productive at all of late. Run him with the starters as the only point on the floor and his assist numbers would change.

Because we have so many poor shooters on the team, we need him to play to one of his strengths - which is shooting (especially if he is on the floor with Felts because DJ can and Felts can't shoot the ball/score as well)

That's the awesome thing about DJ. He's not just a one dimensional point. He can pass the rock with the best of them and can shoot the snot out of it too.

Also, if you compare the per 36 numbers, he's only at 2 less assists a game than Felts.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&=a&p1=augusdj01&y1=2009&=f&p2=feltora01&y2=2009&=&=

110oldeast

04-05-2009, 12:27 AM

I actually think the 2nd unit is more built to rack up assists than the 1st unit as it has better jumpshooting options who will pull the trigger right away, especially when Juwan is in there. That's where most assists in halfcourt sets will come from. If Raja is on, then it can change things.

That said, I have seen Felton get plenty of assists with the 2nd unit including when he is at the 2 beside DJ. He's a more aggressive and better playmaker than DJ while DJ is the safer of the 2. DJ will have less TOs and less assists.

davcbow

04-05-2009, 12:37 AM

Between missed shots, turn overs, missed free throws, and bad calls, the assists arent that big a problem to me.....:cool:

teej

04-05-2009, 12:40 AM

DJ will have less TOs and less assists.

So which one makes Larry (and his anti-turnover, pro-assist coaching style) happier? Obviously right now it looks like Ray, but over the long haul, which one does he choose?

Also guys, DJ is still limited in his skill set because of his nagging injury. So he can't do too much on the floor. I know thats a bit of a cop out, but thats also why he isn't seeing as much PT with the first team.

And his +/- is what worries me more than assists of late, when he comes in, we go wayyyyyyyyy down. He was like -21 vs. the Heat I think, and the celtics game he was a minus, and maybe even the Lakers game, despite his contributions.

spectre

04-05-2009, 08:33 AM

He plays with the starters quite a bit; in the last game he was with the 1st group thru most of the 2nd half yet he only got 1 assist right at the end. Felton in his first year played a lot with the 2nd unit and as a 2 guard with BK and he still racked up the assists. Vlad is a PGs dream in regards to getting assists.

Besides, LB usually keeps a couple of starters with the 2nd unit on the floor doesn't he?

I also highly doubt LB is telling DJ "don't worry about getting your mates an easy basket...I want you to shoot!"

Also guys, DJ is still limited in his skill set because of his nagging injury. So he can't do too much on the floor. I know thats a bit of a cop out, but thats also why he isn't seeing as much PT with the first team.

Sorry Teej, but I do think that's a copout. Everyone on this team has been playing injured...and it doesn't take that much (at least no more than he's been doing) to penetrate a little to pull the defense out and get to the bigger guys underneath. Of course vs. Boston he did that a couple of times and turned the ball over (and it seems got his ass chewed somewhat by LB in the timeout).

Whether LB has him scared or if it's just his mentality...I think he's just too conservative. Afraid to mess up maybe.

ExplosionsInTheSky

04-05-2009, 12:22 PM

Even though it's not something you would expect from Larry and his point guards, I can totally see him asking DJ to look for his shot a little more often. I mean the guy's one of the team's best scorers and when we get into that mode where we pass the ball around for 23 seconds a play I think it's a pretty understandable move from Larry. Or at least that's my philosophy on it. Even though I would probably do the same thing I would, however, like to see DJ setup some of the other guys a little more often for easy buckets like he was doing earlier in the season.

But I still love the guy, love his talent, and I'm still very optimistic about his future. He's still a rookie and worst comes to worst he'll be a shoot first PG, big deal, there's nothing wrong with a shoot first PG. If he become a Jameer Nelson type of player, great, we can definitely use it my opinion. The guy, I think, still has some good point guard skills, at least more so than a Ben Gordon or a Jason Terry. And to go along with what someone mentioned earlier, assists are definitely not everything, Chauncey Billups is a great example of a great player with great point guard skills who never really was known for putting up a ton of assists.

Slam

04-05-2009, 12:33 PM

DJ as a starter in 9 games = .7 less assists per game than Raymond.

Like I said, DJ is multi dimensional. It's such an added bonus that he can initiate the offense and not be a liability when he needs to shoot.

The 2nd unit has sucked of late. If Radman had his some of the open shots he had against the Heat when DJ passed him the ball, DJ finishes the game with 4+ assists.

His assist numbers don't bother me at all right now. He doesn't dominate the ball. He doesn't need to and he is still very effective.

He needs to work on splitting the double and avoiding traps 1st and foremost.

BTW - People need to confirm what they think a pass first point guard and what a shoot first point guard is. For example, is DJ a shoot 1st PG because he can take and make shots and Felts is a pass first point guard because he can't make shots?

TOOT DADDY

04-05-2009, 01:27 PM

Big Slam I totally agree with everything you said.offthe One poster made mention of the second group better shooting. Radmonovich hasn't been able to hit the side of a barn here recently and as far the reference to howard he logs DNP's or next to no minutes. Look at scoring and assists are over seven per when D.J. starts. As far as raymond racking up assists with the second group. He has D.J. and Radmon to pass the ball to, two legitimate shooters. Felts doesn't run with the second group with out D.J. .452 from behind the arc (among th leagues best) .434 inside hell let him run with the starters he averages 12 minutes less than felts 28 pts 7 ast 1 t.o. 29 7 ast 1 t.o. is stat lines I can see being duplicated in the future especially when he becomes the starter. If he didn't get hurt Raymond was out of here.

BETCATS

04-05-2009, 01:33 PM

i see DJ as a starter averaging about 4-5 assists per game, when we give him heavy minutes thats what it looks like he would do with them. However, playmaker is not the role Larry Brown is using him, if LB was like 'hey be a playmaker' i am sure that is what DJ would do, but we need him for shooting more than playmaking.

spectre

04-05-2009, 02:26 PM

BTW - People need to confirm what they think a pass first point guard and what a shoot first point guard is. For example, is DJ a shoot 1st PG because he can take and make shots and Felts is a pass first point guard because he can't make shots?

Heh!

I consider a "pass first" PG who'll look to get others involved first before they take their own shot. Nash of course comes to mind first. He can still score...can even be "the man"...but he works hard first to get the others involved.

A "shoot first" PG is like Baron Davis...is usually the high scorer and will take his shot if he considers it a "good shot" (this is sometimes and usually debatable)...but will rack up some assists because the D is queing on him.

Right now DJ "appears" to be the latter...but as I've said I think some of it is because he's very leary of pissing LB off (being a rook and all) and plays it too conservatively.

There's plenty of other threads on Felton, but since you asked I'd say his tendency is strongly to be a shoot first but is/can be a pretty good mix of the 2. That was LB's main task and the question of whether it could even be done (among other things like his contract) is probably what prompted the trade rumors. Supposedly LB is happy with Felton's progression...but it's definitely still a work in progress.

Personally, I don't want either but prefer a mix. Both types dominate the ball and I much prefer a passing/moving TEAM...which is what we're now building with Larry Brown Ball.

I think both PGs we have can be that...eventually.

Slam

04-05-2009, 03:14 PM

Steve Nash takes more FGA per 36 than DJ does.

spectre

04-05-2009, 04:23 PM

Not just about FGAs...it's about what the first (and second) intent is.

And of course pace probably has something to do with Nash's FGAs.

teej

04-05-2009, 05:48 PM

Yeah, I think any PHX's FGA per 36 dwarfs us. They put up 160 a little while ago.

As far as DJ goes, I was only saying his injury (which is likely worse than other guys, based on his performance versus PT) could be leading him to just sitting around the 3 pt line and waiting to shoot more lately, which is something I've seen him do sometimes. Ray is all over the court, good and bad, but all over. DJ was for a litle bit, but he is much more conservative now. Thats why think the injury might be limiting him.

Also, as far as him playing with the first team, a good deal of that time is with Ray, and Ray is the main point in that situation, the ball almost always goes through him. And I echo whoever said if Radman could hit a few shots DJ would have 3x more assists over the last few games.

The assists dont worry me, the overall scoring of the second unti does.

Slam

04-05-2009, 06:06 PM

Not just about FGAs...it's about what the first (and second) intent is.

And of course pace probably has something to do with Nash's FGAs.
That is very true and I agree 100%.

It just seems that some people tend to look at the way DJ is asked to play in order to help the team at the moment and consider him a shoot 1st point guard. I saw enough of him at Texas over two years to know that he is both - he's got great poise, decision making, passing and can stroke the ball.

There seems to be some sort of misconception (not saying by you) that DJ is a Boobie Gibson type PG. I don't feel that way. I also don't think that he is a Rondo type PG (one who is bad at shooting, so doesn't).

IMO he has a great balance to his game - like Nash.

Nash was the player comparison I made to DJ in my profile of him last year before the draft (all be it a poor man's version) and I stand by that after seeing him actually play in the NBA. I see him very much in the style of Nash.

Who would you compare him to?

Slam

04-05-2009, 06:08 PM

The assists dont worry me, the overall scoring of the second unti does.
The assists don't worry me either - his current inability to identify a trap and work his way through/around/away from it worries me more.......although I think that can be easily fixed because he has great handles and poise.

spectre

04-05-2009, 09:00 PM

Sigh, 1 assist in 29 minutes.

Let me back up; I don't think Nash is a "pass first" PG because I don't believe in such a thing...at least so far as being a pass first and being a good PG. A good PG does both, and he knows when to involve his mates more and he knows when he needs to score.

That'd be Nash/Paul/Kidd and to a point Williams.

The flip would be BDiddy & Mo Williams.

I liked DJ IN SPITE OF him calling himself a "pass first" PG, because I knew it was bullshit (just like I knew that guy Bayless wasn't a freaking PG). That didn't bother me though as I've said repeatedly...I want my PG to be able to score.

What do I see DJ as? I don't think I'm seeing what DJ really is. What I see now is a rook who is a great guy and who is doing his damndest to please Larry Brown. I know he can play in the paint...I've even commented before that he has that speed in the paint (deceptively slow) that Paul has. Thing is he's not doing it. I think he's deathly afraid to fuck up, so he leans on his scoring because 1) he's damn good at it and 2) who's going to bitch about scoring, esp. at such a high %?

It's quite frustrating, because I know he can do more.

Slam

04-05-2009, 09:15 PM

It's quite frustrating, because I know he can do more.
1,000,000% agree. I guess he's just doing what's being asked of him though because it's what we need the most of.

I doubt we'll still be having the same conversation about his game in a couple of years time and I'll be very, very pissed (and surprised) if we are.

Marvel

04-06-2009, 04:30 AM

I think it has to do with his role right now as outside of DJ and Radman we really have no scorers so me thinks LB has put DJ in a scoring role more than a playmaker.

spectre

04-06-2009, 05:49 AM

I think it has to do with his role right now as outside of DJ and Radman we really have no scorers so me thinks LB has put DJ in a scoring role more than a playmaker.

If so that's a helluva trap to be placed in. The same was said about Felton when he first came here and then suddenly he wasn't a PG but a combo guard because he "likes to shoot!".

Just don't buy that tho...what I'm mainly pointing out is driving the ball and working the paint, and LB wants everyone to do that.

Felton said one of the hardest things he had to adjust to was the 24 second clock...maybe that's a factor here as well. Another is that he did what we're talking about in college and most just can't carry it over to the NBA. I'll point out that I don't think that's the case, but that jump for college players is a lot harder than most think.

Slam

04-06-2009, 09:43 AM

Just don't buy that tho...what I'm mainly pointing out is driving the ball and working the paint, and LB wants everyone to do that.
I thought you were talking about his lack of assists?

But if you are talking about his ability to score: It's outstanding that he is SUCH a good shooter, but I don't want to see him just as that. He is amazing driving to the hole. He has a wicked handle, can explode to the rim, is very crafty and smart and can finish when he gets there.

He also has a wicked mid-range game and can pull up off of the dribble, step back, fade away and put up tear drops.

I don't think that his injury hampered his passing ability at all, but there is no doubt it effected his speed and abilty to change direction on the drive. Maybe he was being conservative because of that? He's a rook so he gets smoked on the drive with little protection from the refs so hopefully that will change as well given time?

Personally I would LOVE to see him average 6 fta's per game (not including T's). That would show that he is driving and getting the opposition to collapse on him creating open shots for others while getting the opposition into foul trouble. Plus, DJ is money from the line so it's pretty much 6 easy ppg.

Back to the assists though - I still maintain that he has a wonderful balance between being able to shoot/score the ball and get others involved.

He's a 21 year old kid with 62 NBA games under his belt averaging 11.9ppg, 1.9rpg, 3.4apg, .6spg on 43.7/44.6/89.4 shooting as a back up PG to a young starting PG.

All in all I think it's been a very impressive rookie season for him.

spectre

04-06-2009, 10:49 AM

I thought you were talking about his lack of assists?

I am...specifically him getting into the paint, drawing defenders and passing to the bigs. His ability to score is pretty obvious and I doubt anyone has issue with that.

I don't think that his injury hampered his passing ability at all, but there is no doubt it effected his speed and abilty to change direction on the drive. Maybe he was being conservative because of that?

It could. He's not doing what I saw him do in Texas (granted a very small sample size) in regards to manipulating the defense in the paint, so the injury in his chest could be influencing his reluctance.

He's a rook so he gets smoked on the drive with little protection from the refs so hopefully that will change as well given time?

Are you talking about his defense now? I'm not quite sure why he's getting beat off the dribble so much, but regardless it's not all his fault; we SUCK at help D. Yeah, we might cover the guy driving but if he gets it up to the basket we almost always lose the board and it usually ends in a dunk.

Curry said post game that "everyone" knows our weakness in defending the drive.

I might even chalk that up to what I've been saying earlier about driving; he's worried about getting around the screen (or if there's going to be a screen) so he's losing focus on what the guy in front of him is going to do. Maybe that's related to his injury as well?

Not something I don't think he can't improve on tho. Felton should be a help on that. No doubt Bell will. He just needs work.

Personally I would LOVE to see him average 6 fta's per game (not including T's). That would show that he is driving and getting the opposition to collapse on him creating open shots for others while getting the opposition into foul trouble. Plus, DJ is money from the line so it's pretty much 6 easy ppg.

Oh no doubt...and he gets calls a lot of rookies don't. Big plus to already have that in his arsenal.

Back to the assists though - I still maintain that he has a wonderful balance between being able to shoot/score the ball and get others involved.

I think he can, but I don't think he's been showing the latter...and the lack of assists is kind of red flagging it. Again, I don't think that's a deficiency but "other" things.

He's a 21 year old kid with 62 NBA games under his belt averaging 11.9ppg, 1.9rpg, 3.4apg, .6spg on 43.7/44.6/89.4 shooting as a back up PG to a young starting PG.

All in all I think it's been a very impressive rookie season for him.

Yup, and because we have Felton there's no huge rush for him to get better overnight. Having both him and Bell (and Larry Brown) puts DJ in a very fine position going forward. He's going to learn the "right way".

Slam

04-06-2009, 11:46 AM

Are you talking about his defense now?
I was actually referring to when he drives. Like most rooks, there has been times that he has driven the ball and been smashed by the D but hasn't got the call. I think that given a couple more seasons, maybe even next season, the refs will start to reward him more for attacking the rim and look after him a little more (at least I hope!!).

That said, he still gets his shot blocked too much though. He's better than that and I assume is still adjusting to the speed/length of NBA defenses?

I'm not quite sure why he's getting beat off the dribble so much
I have the theory! (like I do with everything!!).
I actually think he's an above average defender. He has very quick feet and shows great anticipation. He's also more than willing to step in and take a charge. I don't have as much of a problem with his pick and roll D as some. I think generally speaking he mixes up his under and over. It's our bigs help D on the pick that bothers me.

Here is where he falls down IMO.

One on one D. At the moment he's horrible at moving his hips. It's amost like he over commits going to one direction so that when the guy dribbling the ball crosses over/changes direction he can't counter quick enough. He needs to stay more square and not turn his shoulders. As soon as he turns his shoulders, his hips will turn and he's screwed. If it's just a matter of staying in front of someone or forcing them to one side he's great, as soon as they change direction he is left hung out to dry. GOT TO STAY MORE SQUARE AND SUFFLE. He tends to turn when he defends.

but regardless it's not all his fault; we SUCK at help D. Yeah, we might cover the guy driving but if he gets it up to the basket we almost always lose the board and it usually ends in a dunk.
The sooner our players go to basketball 101 and learn the box out, the better.

spectre

04-06-2009, 12:00 PM

We'll agree to disagree on whether he's an above average defender...cuz you know I don't think that at all. :biggrin:

Again tho...every weakness I see I think can be worked/improved on.

Here is where he falls down IMO.

One on one D. At the moment he's horrible at moving his hips. It's almost like he over commits going to one direction so that when the guy dribbling the ball crosses over/changes direction he can't counter quick enough. He needs to stay more square and not turn his shoulders. As soon as he turns his shoulders, his hips will turn and he's screwed. If it's just a matter of staying in front of someone or forcing them to one side he's great, as soon as they change direction he is left hung out to dry. GOT TO STAY MORE SQUARE AND SUFFLE. He tends to turn when he defends.

That is an outstanding observation and could very well be the culprit! Man do I miss having the games on DVR, because that's the type of thing I can no longer judge.

In regards to calls in the future I wouldn't hold my breath until the team gets some respect by being a solid playoff contender. Unless you're a big name like Flash I think you'll always come out being pissed about the refs regardless.

The sooner our players go to basketball 101 and learn the box out, the better.

Therein lies the true crux of the matter...and I'm looking dead at Crash. It's not all his fault; he said himself that what he was most excited about LB was him teaching the fundamentals as he's never had a chance to learn that.

I'm hoping that LB can make some big strides with this same group and an off season to do it in. We're so bad now I have to think we'll see some significant progress.

davcbow

04-06-2009, 12:34 PM

I'm hoping that LB can make some big strides with this same group and an off season to do it in. We're so bad now I have to think we'll see some significant progress.

I said at the beginning of the season that this was probably a 2-3 year plan to be a contender. We see what has taken place in just the first season, if we can do this again this off season and training camp, we should be at the least a #4-5 seed next season. Pick up a few key positions and we should be yrue contenders...:cool:

dnbman

04-06-2009, 04:17 PM

If so that's a helluva trap to be placed in. The same was said about Felton when he first came here and then suddenly he wasn't a PG but a combo guard because he "likes to shoot!".

Exactly! People forget that Felton was considered a true pg in college, though one that could score with his speed. He was also a Cousy winner his junior and finalist his sophomore year.

I still think for the foreseeable future, Felton will be our rugged two-way point guard and DJ will be our Jason Terry, something the club needs to succeed.

Spectre has said pretty much everything I would have said. I just want to reiterate his point that DJ can be an outstanding guard who can create plays for others. I just don't think he was a pass first point guard like everybody was saying around draft time.

Slam

04-06-2009, 04:44 PM

I just don't think he was a pass first point guard like everybody was saying around draft time.
It goes back to what I was asking earlier - what's a pass 1st pg?

As far as I am concerned there is only one pass 1st pg starting in the NBA at the moment - and that's Rondo and the only reason he is is because he is terrible at shooting and has the big three around him.

Nash, Paul, D.Will, Rose, Calderon, Kidd, Harris, Parker etc all score as much as they look to set others up. That's what makes them great, but it doesn't make them pass first. The difference is that when they shoot, they are shooting up around the 50% mark.

There are plenty of guys who are shoot first though. Guys like Gilbert, Terry, Crawford, Wade, Ellis, Mo, Nate, Davis, Bibby.

Personally I put DJ in the first bunch, not the latter and to be honest, I'm thankful. If DJ started shooting less it would be doing a major disservice to the team IMO.

dnbman

04-06-2009, 04:56 PM

It goes back to what I was asking earlier - what's a pass 1st pg?

As far as I am concerned there is only one pass 1st pg starting in the NBA at the moment - and that's Rondo and the only reason he is is because he is terrible at shooting and has the big three around him.

Nash, Paul, D.Will, Rose, Calderon, Kidd, Harris, Parker etc all score as much as they look to set others up. That's what makes them great, but it doesn't make them pass first. The difference is that when they shoot, they are shooting up around the 50% mark.

There are plenty of guys who are shoot first though. Guys like Gilbert, Terry, Crawford, Wade, Ellis, Mo, Nate, Davis, Bibby.

Personally I put DJ in the first bunch, not the latter and to be honest, I'm thankful. If DJ started shooting less it would be doing a major disservice to the team IMO.

Again, I agree with Spectre (and, seemingly, you also!): there's really no such thing as a pass first pg. However, many people discuss the idea of a pass first pg as someone who looks to set up others before he looks for his own shot. I actually think Felton falls in this category until he becomes frustrated with how the offense is executing. (e.g. he'll have 6 assists in the first half and 4 shot attempts and then 1 assist in the second half and 10 shot attempts) DJ does not seem to fall in this category. He seems to often look for the first open look he gets. AD (After Durant), he appeared to look for his own offense first rather than other players. That doesn't mean he's not a good playmaker, selfish, or bad in anyway. However, using the definition that I think most people meant, I don't think DJ was that type of pure pg.

I think DJ's great; I don't feel bad at all anymore that we drafted him. However, I still see him as instant offense rather than a starting caliber point guard at this point in his career.

Keetch

04-06-2009, 05:14 PM

dnbman

04-06-2009, 06:33 PM

Not to complicate this topic further, okay maybe to complicate it. If I recall, another catch phrase; and one that was often applied to DJ in last years draft, was "best pure Point Guard." There you go.... have fun.

That's exactly the type of talk I'm talking about. Though, DJ could be a pretty unpure point guard and still be the purest point guard of the last draft. Who else does he have to contend with? Chalmers?

Slam

04-06-2009, 07:09 PM

That's exactly the type of talk I'm talking about. Though, DJ could be a pretty unpure point guard and still be the purest point guard of the last draft. Who else does he have to contend with? Chalmers?
He is a pure point?

Just like Nash, Paul, D.Will, Rose, Calderon, Kidd, Harris, Parker etc who I mentioned earlier are all pure points because all score as much as they look to set others up - depending on what the situation requires because they have the ability to do both.

Just like DJ.

spectre

04-06-2009, 07:31 PM

"because all score as much as they look to set others up"

But where is it that says DJ is doing that, and especially AS MUCH AS he scores? It's not indicated in his assists (and if he was causing defensive reaction where Mek gets a dunk or point blank layup that's where it'd be), nor is his presence causing scoring bursts other than his own really.

I've said I think he can, but I certainly don't think he has.

dnbman

04-06-2009, 09:05 PM

He is a pure point?

Just like Nash, Paul, D.Will, Rose, Calderon, Kidd, Harris, Parker etc who I mentioned earlier are all pure points because all score as much as they look to set others up - depending on what the situation requires because they have the ability to do both.

Just like DJ.

I don't understand the reply.

Again, Spectre made my point.

Once again, I don't buy into the whole pure point guard thing. I'm talking about how other people were describing DJ at the time of the draft and often times still do. Yet, as Spectre pointed out, the evidence doesn't bear it out.

In fact, people are making the same excuses for DJ that I was making for Felton: they were/are being asked to be scorers as much as facilitators. However, DJ has had very few assists, especially lately.

Slam

04-07-2009, 09:01 AM

But where is it that says DJ is doing that, and especially AS MUCH AS he scores? It's not indicated in his assists (and if he was causing defensive reaction where Mek gets a dunk or point blank layup that's where it'd be), nor is his presence causing scoring bursts other than his own really.

I've said I think he can, but I certainly don't think he has.
*Per 36 = 2 less assists than Felts.
*As a starter = 6.1 assists a game.

*Playing as a back up PG and often off the ball, he has less shot attempts per 36 than guys like Harris, Parker, Nash, Paul and Williams.

DJ has a wonderful balance of scoring and assists. Just what we need.

The last thing we need, especially with a guy like Boris on the team, is a PG who dominates the ball IMO.

* = This is comparing a rookie to guys who are in their 4th, 5th, 6th and sometimes longer, year in the NBA. Like I keep saying, lets check back on DJ in 2 or 3 years time so we aren't comparing a rookie who is being asked to shoot more (LB has said so many times in his post game interviews) and see what's what, but even as a rookie, he compares very well to those more seasoned vets.

TOOT DADDY

04-07-2009, 10:53 AM

D.j. starts tonight let's see what that brings as far as numbers.
I call 20pts 8assits

Slam

04-07-2009, 11:43 AM

Forget 20/8, I'll be happy for him just to turn his hips when he defends and not to get caught in double teams/traps.

davcbow

04-07-2009, 12:48 PM

D.j. starts tonight let's see what that brings as far as numbers.
I call 20pts 8assits

DJ is starting tonight?

spectre

04-07-2009, 01:09 PM

D.j. starts tonight let's see what that brings as far as numbers.
I call 20pts 8assits

He's gotten 8 assists or more exactly twice in his 9 starts (and one of the two was in Philly where he had 11, and 10 of those were on jump shots) and only 4 games the entire year. 8 assists would be equal to the total of what he's gotten over the last 6 games (9).

I guess he's due! :rolleyes:

I've exhaustingly went thru the play by plays and in a couple of games DJ had a really good assist line...and by "good" assists I mean feeding the guys underneath.

*VS NOH (12/10) - 7 assists in 37 minutes...2 dunks (Hollins)...1 layup...4 jumpshots

*VS DAL (12/11) - 10 assists in 43 minutes...3 dunks, 2 driving layups...5 jumpshots

The Dallas line is particularly good, and the NOH isn't bad at all. We can't tell by the play by play if he actually created the dunk/layup (could have been screening in the interior), but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

Thing is on most of his other games he's been getting the assists almost solely on jumpshots. For example, in the Philly game where he had 11 assists, 10 were off jumpshots. Not saying that's a bad thing and indeed it is good...but to see some type of comparison to Steve Nash who's entire game is predicated on creating EASY buckets for his team mates is IMO entirely off.

DJ plays way too conservatively to be compared to Nash...at least so far in his NBA career. Shooting maybe...3 pt shooting definitely. Getting his mates easier looks?

No...and it's not even close.

TOOT DADDY

04-07-2009, 01:11 PM

Forget 20/8, I'll be happy for him just to turn his hips when he defends and not to get caught in double teams/traps.
Hopefully LB has been driving that home in practice. Don't see him saying anything about defense even at the games I have attended. I hear him bitching constantly about passing up shots and swinging the ball and not demanding it back. He gets the wrath of LB when he swings the ball and the play fails. It will all come together in time.

Slam

04-07-2009, 01:27 PM

DJ plays way too conservatively to be compared to Nash...at least so far in his NBA career. Shooting maybe...3 pt shooting definitely. Getting his mates easier looks?

No...and it's not even close.
So far in his career? So far in his 67 game rookie season career he isn't playing exactly the same as a 2 time MVP in his 13th season??

They both share very similar traits and playing styles.

spectre

04-07-2009, 01:34 PM

So far in his 67 games he has not exhibited those traits.

He might have shown that in college, but he has not shown it in the NBA to date. If he's going to be compared to Nash (and it wasn't me who did that) then he should at least be showing something along those lines.

Going thru some of the commentary before the draft it seems a lot felt his comparison to be Jameer Nelson. Right now I think he shows those traits much moreso than Nash.

Slam

04-07-2009, 01:37 PM

Also, I have read people kicking around the "well, Felton was the Cousy award winner in college".

Well, guess what, he aint the only one on the team who can claim that honnor!!

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/colleges/texas/stories/040408dnspoutaugustin.2b22844e.html

Of course DJ did it as a sophmore and did it on a team who didn't win the NCAA or even make it that far.

Slam

04-07-2009, 01:39 PM

Here's some more!!

ESPN college basketball analyst and former coach Fran Fraschilla:

"D.J. is much more like a Steve Nash-type point guard than anyone else in the country because he's equally effective at setting up his teammates and getting his own shot whenever he wants," Fraschilla said. "He's equally effective at shooting the long ball, yet still breaking down the defender and getting into the lane. Those are signatures of Nash."

spectre

04-07-2009, 01:42 PM

That's all well and fine...but he's not done that in the NBA!

I really don't understand the argument; it seems you're basing what he can be from college and the rest are just saying what he's done in the pros. If so that's fine, but there's no denying that he has not been playing in the least like Nash this year.

Slam

04-07-2009, 01:50 PM

That's all well and fine...but he's not done that in the NBA!
He has 100% shown glimpses of it in the NBA. If you haven't seen his ability to make creative passes on point, then you haven't been watching close enough.

I really don't understand the argument; it seems you're basing what he can be from college and the rest are just saying what he's done in the pros.
It's no different from saying that Felts was a pass 1st PG in college and now he's taking the most amounts of shots per game on the team in the NBA.

DJ's had 67 games of playing 2nd fiddle in the NBA and still shown flashes of brilliance. If in 4 years time he's a starting PG and is still averaging only 3 or 4 apg, then I will stand corrected. Until then, I can only base my opinion of him of what I saw watching him during 2 years of college and the snap shots we've been able to see this NBA season (of which there is obviously an asjustment period).

davcbow

04-07-2009, 02:07 PM

Even the mighty Nash started out slow.....:cool:

Borrowed from wikipedia....

Nash was selected 15th overall by the Phoenix Suns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Suns) in the first round of the 1996 NBA Draft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_NBA_Draft). Upon hearing the draft announcement, Suns fans booed in disapproval of the relatively unknown player.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Nash#cite_note-kid-7) This was because despite his impressive college accomplishments, Nash had not played in one of the major college conferences (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BCS_Conference). During his first two seasons in the NBA, Nash played a supporting role behind NBA star point guards Kevin Johnson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Johnson), Sam Cassell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Cassell), and later, Jason Kidd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Kidd).[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Nash#cite_note-jock-6) In his rookie season, he only managed 10.5 minutes a game,[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Nash#cite_note-nashstats-11) but in his second season, his playing time increased significantly and he was even ranked 13th in the league for three-point field-goal percentage.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Nash#cite_note-jock-6) Nevertheless, the Canadian's tenure with the Suns was not to last. While at Santa Clara (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Clara_University), Nash had met and befriended Dallas Mavericks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_Mavericks) assistant coach Donnie Nelson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donnie_Nelson), who worked for the Golden State Warriors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_State_Warriors) at that time. After moving to Dallas, Nelson was able to convince his father, Don Nelson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Nelson)—then the Mavericks coach and general manager—to acquire the under-utilized Nash.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Nash#cite_note-jock-6) Following the 1998 NBA Draft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_NBA_Draft), Nash was traded from the Suns to the Mavericks in exchange for Martin Muursepp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_M%C3%BC%C3%BCrsepp), Bubba Wells (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubba_Wells), the draft rights to Pat Garrity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Garrity) and a first-round draft pick.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Nash#cite_note-jock-6)

DJ just needs a bit more time and he will be fine.....:cool:

spectre

04-07-2009, 02:15 PM

He has 100% shown glimpses of it in the NBA. If you haven't seen his ability to make creative passes on point, then you haven't been watching close enough.

With him averaging about 1 assist per game over the last 11 games or so I don't think I have to look all that hard? It can't be that "creative" to toss the ball to Boris on the perimeter so he can shoot a somewhat contested 3 shot...which was how he got all of his assists in the last 2 games.

It's no different from saying that Felts was a pass 1st PG in college and now he's taking the most amounts of shots per game on the team in the NBA.

Yup...and the excuses used for him are the same as those being used for DJ now. The difference was Bernie started calling Felton a "combo guard" right off the bat, when most knew that wasn't what he was at UNC.

I didn't see DJ being labeled a combo guard at the start of the year, and no one is calling him that now either.

Until then, I can only base my opinion of him of what I saw watching him during 2 years of college and the snap shots we've been able to see this NBA season (of which there is obviously an asjustment period).

So college is indeed what you're basing a lot of this on. That would make a LOT more sense.

spectre

04-07-2009, 02:18 PM

DJ just needs a bit more time and he will be fine.....:cool:

No one has said one time that DJ couldn't end up being like Nash...hell, I've even said I "think" he can one day end up like that.

We're talking about now and specifically why he's not getting his team mates involved/getting assists...not what his potential might be.

davcbow

04-07-2009, 02:21 PM

No one has said one time that DJ couldn't end up being like Nash...hell, I've even said I "think" he can one day end up like that.

We're talking about now and specifically why he's not getting his team mates involved/getting assists...not what his potential might be.

I guess we will see how he is doing tonight as long as he does get the start....:cool:

Slam

04-07-2009, 02:28 PM

With him averaging about 1 assist per game over the last 11 games or so I don't think I have to look all that hard? It can't be that "creative" to toss the ball to Boris on the perimeter so he can shoot a somewhat contested 3 shot...which was how he got all of his assists in the last 2 games.
And as I said a longgggggggg time ago, if guys like Radman go 0-6 or if Diop continues to fumble passes or shoot mid range J's, it's going to be hard for anyone to rack up assists. They are the sorts of guys DJ is playing point to. If he's on the court with guys like Diaw, it's usually very briefly or with Felts at the same time - and Felts dominates the ball because he is the starting PG.

Not only that, but LB has said time and time and time again in his post game that he wants DJ to shoot more. He needs DJ to shoot more and not to look to pass. You know, that whole "ILBIT" thing? Doesn't mean DJ can't pass and isn't an excellent, well above average passer but he IS shooting 55% from the floor over his last 14 games after all. It's great that he is willing to help the team.

Yup...and the excuses used for him are the same as those being used for DJ now. The difference was Bernie started calling Felton a "combo guard" right off the bat, when most knew that wasn't what he was at UNC.
The excuses that have been used for 4 years!! Like I keep saying, if we are still talking the same way about DJ in four years time I will be totally shocked - and I don't expect to be shocked.

I didn't see DJ being labeled a combo guard at the start of the year, and no one is calling him that now either.
Because he's not?

So college is indeed what you're basing a lot of this on. That would make a LOT more sense.

Selective quoting? I noticed you failed to add the bold lettering to the "and the snap shots we've been able to see this NBA season" part?

ohara831

04-07-2009, 02:28 PM

DJ will not reach his potential as a PG playing behind Raymond. Ray has improved quite a bit under LB. I think Ray played better than LB expected. This is a good problem, but a problem nonetheless. They cannot both start, and they both cannot reach their potential playing the backup role. In the end, this gets resolved 1 of 3 ways.

a. We sign Ray long term and let DJ take over the start. It may piss off Ray, but gives us a great PG off the bench who can play a very productive 30 minutes.

b. We sign Ray long term, keep DJ coming off the bench, and watch him leave in a few years to play somewhere else.

c. We sign Ray long term and then we will trade either Ray or DJ within a year. Hate to lose of the 2, but it is also the only way to maximize the potential for both of them and the team.

Slam

04-07-2009, 02:32 PM

No one has said one time that DJ couldn't end up being like Nash...hell, I've even said I "think" he can one day end up like that.
No you don't. You don't at all.

Because if you did, you wouldn't make such a deal about him averaging 2 assists per game over his last 14 games and you wouldn't question his ability to run a team/get others involved today.

Slam

04-07-2009, 02:34 PM

DJ will not reach his potential as a PG playing behind Raymond.
I think that DJ coming to the NBA as a rookie and playing behind Felts has been great for him.

Felts has been nothing short of wonderful for DJ IMO playing that big brother role.

But don't turn this into a Felts Vs Dj thread - that's not what it's about (and so far we have managed to stay away from that dead horse!!).

It's about DJ's lack of assists.

spectre

04-07-2009, 02:54 PM

No you don't. You don't at all.

Because if you did, you wouldn't make such a deal about him averaging 2 assists per game over his last 14 games and you wouldn't question his ability to run a team/get others involved today.

Bullshit. I question it because he hasn't shown it in the pros other than a couple of games (Will Bynum is gonna be a star!!!!) and I'm not taking it on faith based on what he did in college. Everyone on this team gets nitpicked on their previous game...yet we're supposed to ignore the last 9 in DJ's case when he's only averaged 1.3 assists per game and almost all on jump shots?

It's not me being the unrealistic one here.

Slam

04-07-2009, 03:07 PM

Bullshit. I question it because he hasn't shown it in the pros other than a couple of games (Will Bynum is gonna be a star!!!!) and I'm not taking it on faith based on what he did in college. Everyone on this team gets nitpicked on their previous game...yet we're supposed to ignore the last 9 in DJ's case when he's only averaged 1.3 assists per game and almost all on jump shots?

It's not me being the unrealistic one here.
You think he can become like Nash - yet you question his ability to rack up assists in the NBA "other than a couple of games"?

One of these is not like the other one.......

Which is it? Can he be like Nash, or can he only average 1.3 assists that he gets on jump shots?

Realistically there is a massive difference between the two!

dnbman

04-07-2009, 03:16 PM

spectre

04-07-2009, 03:20 PM

You think he can become like Nash - yet you question his ability to rack up assists in the NBA "other than a couple of games"?

One of these is not like the other one.......

Which is it? Can he be like Nash, or can he only average 1.3 assists that he gets on jump shots?

Realistically there is a massive difference between the two!

Only if you want it to be. If you look back to what I've posted earlier I said that "in college he had the deceptive moves in the paint like Chris Paul". Based on that I THINK he can do that in the NBA.

Because that was college tho I'm in no way sure he WILL be able to do that for the Bobcats.

But yeah...let's make this about me, because that's absolutely the best way to prove that DJ has been showing signs of being Nash at the pro level!

dnbman

04-07-2009, 03:29 PM

The excuses that have been used for 4 years!! Like I keep saying, if we are still talking the same way about DJ in four years time I will be totally shocked - and I don't expect to be shocked.

I think the future will bear that out, but DJ will also have the immense advantage of team stability. Assuming we don't start doing a lot of crazy trades every year, we've got a core of talent in place, with reasonable players at every position.

Not only did Felton not have this for a good portion of his career, but he was trying to develop his game while desperate coaches were asking him to score and then criticizing him for not being a point guard. Felton was also doing that while our current core of Wallace and Okafor were still developing themselves.

DJ comes into the league with a much more dynamic squad, better quality veterans, MUCH better coaching, and a clear vision for the team and his role on it.

The only point I'm trying to make on this thread is this: when DJ was selected the vast majority of the pro-DJ folks were saying that DJ was a true pass-first (their own description) point guard. Most of these people also thought he would be a lot different than Felton, who they viewed as a shoot first combo guard. Yet, both guards were Cousy award winning true point guards in college who were asked to be scorers on the Bobcats because of lack of scoring. Yet, DJ receives little of the criticism that Felton did, despite Felton being just as good a distributor his rookie year playing with almost no talent around him.

TOOT DADDY

04-07-2009, 03:32 PM

Im sure D.J. would welcome a trade versus siting behind Felton. As I said in previous post put felton with the second unit minus D.J. and watch those assists numbers go down. There is a reason L.B. is on him so much about not shooting with the second group because if he doesn't and Radmon is off who else can score? Comparing a first year p.g. to a four year veteran is ridicolous to me especially when he plays sparingly with the first unit. Slam I agree with you and Spectre I can't deny his assists number are nothing to write home about but I hear L.B. saying shoot and don''t turn the ball over not get it to Diop etc. We'll see tonight. What our ROOKIE pg that is shooting .453 (pretty damn great)from the three and .432 inside can do while starting. At least if your shoot first shoot better than a forty percent clip...Hint Hint

Slam

04-07-2009, 03:33 PM

Only if you want it to be. If you look back to what I've posted earlier I said that "in college he had the deceptive moves in the paint like Chris Paul". Based on that I THINK he can do that in the NBA.

Because that was college tho I'm in no way sure he WILL be able to do that for the Bobcats.

But yeah...let's make this about me, because that's absolutely the best way to prove that DJ has been showing signs of being Nash at the pro level!
It's not making it about you, it's getting you to clarify your stance.

On one hand you question his ability to create any assists other than those coming off jump shots as well as his lack of assists over his past 14 or so games. But then you say you think he can be Nash like.

Which one is it?

dnbman

04-07-2009, 03:38 PM

It's not making it about you, it's getting you to clarify your stance.

On one hand you question his ability to create any assists other than those coming off jump shots as well as his lack of assists over his past 14 or so games. But then you say you think he can be Nash like.

Which one is it?

From my perspective, it's just his mentality. He seems quick to try and score. Maybe the only reason is because Brown is asking him to do so. I don't know. I thought he had the same mentality in college, but you probably watched more of his college games than I did.

Certainly, there's no question that he can make the pretty pass, shoot, and be a quality player.

spectre

04-07-2009, 03:40 PM

It's not making it about you, it's getting you to clarify your stance.

On one hand you question his ability to create any assists other than those coming off jump shots as well as his lack of assists over his past 14 or so games. But then you say you think he can be Nash like.

Which one is it?

You don't consider the post you quoted clarification?

Here, let me break it down for ya...

1) DJ was very good in college.

2) DJ showed signs of being a good distributor in the paint in college.

3) I think there's a good chance he can do that one day in the NBA.

4) DJ hasn't shown it thus far.

Still see a contradiction?

Slam

04-07-2009, 03:42 PM

4) DJ hasn't shown it thus far
If he is yet to show you in the NBA that he can do/be that, why would you still think that he has a chance to be Nash like?

dnbman

04-07-2009, 03:44 PM

Comparing a first year p.g. to a four year veteran is ridicolous to me especially when he plays with the starters sparingly with the first unit.

As my last post was saying, I'm not trying to compare the two right this second. I'm only pointing out that Felton has been crucified by many for taking "so many shots," going so far as to say he's not a point guard. Yet, DJ has gotten very few assists lately and has taken a lot of shots. Yet, nobody really questions that he's a true point guard.

All I'm looking for here is a little intellectual honesty when discussing the players.

ohara831

04-07-2009, 03:44 PM

I think that DJ coming to the NBA as a rookie and playing behind Felts has been great for him.

Felts has been nothing short of wonderful for DJ IMO playing that big brother role.

But don't turn this into a Felts Vs Dj thread - that's not what it's about (and so far we have managed to stay away from that dead horse!!).

It's about DJ's lack of assists.

I agree it has been good for him - for his Rookie year. I am talking about 2-3 years from now. I dont see any way for this to stay the status quo and DJ reach his potential. It is not a matter of DJ vs Ray. Ray improved with the intro of LB to the team, and also knowing that DJ was pushing him. All I'm saying is that before DJ's contract is up, he will either be the starter on this team, or he will have been traded. I cant see us keeping him and giving him all the training, and then letting him walk to another team to take over the reins there. If Ray continues to improve, it may very well be Ray who stays his entire career as our starter.

dnbman

04-07-2009, 03:46 PM

If he is yet to show you in the NBA that he can do/be that, why would you still think that he has a chance to be Nash like?

Why couldn't Spectre thing that?

Augustin can make nice passes.
Augustin can shoot.
Augustin has a good motor.

That gives him the possibility of becoming Nash like.

However, he hasn't played like Nash yet.

dnbman

04-07-2009, 03:50 PM

I cant see us keeping him and giving him all the training, and then letting him walk to another team to take over the reins there. If Ray continues to improve, it may very well be Ray who stays his entire career as our starter.

My ideal situation is that both become great players and we have the luxury to trade one for a great piece that we are missing elsewhere. If we could keep both guys, that would be great. However, both have so much potential that I'd like to keep them here until one truly emerges as the clear choice.

BRNC

04-07-2009, 03:59 PM

I understand the argument (concern) about DJ and his assists lately but none of us really knows what LB has been asking him to do...my concern about DJ (since I don't know what he's being asked to do) is not the assist but his defensive short comings (no pun intended)...I see this as more of a concern but if he indeed develops into a Nash type PG (how much is Nash knocked for his lack of defense) he will be a great player...my general feeling is one or the other will be traded for another piece or pieces within a year since I also think they both will be starters in the league...

The troubling thing is which one? I thing defense and "can he take the poundings" works against DJ...shot selection and (on still too many occasions) poor decisions works against Ray...I like both players for different reasons...again...as for the assist (for me) I think he is capable but what is he being asked to do when he's on the court?

ohara831

04-07-2009, 04:00 PM

My ideal situation is that both become great players and we have the luxury to trade one for a great piece that we are missing elsewhere. If we could keep both guys, that would be great. However, both have so much potential that I'd like to keep them here until one truly emerges as the clear choice.

I agree. And fortunately, we do have a little bit of time considering DJ is just a Rookie. I think for sure we do resign Ray, unless he just flat out gets out of our price range.

spectre

04-07-2009, 04:03 PM

If he is yet to show you in the NBA that he can do/be that, why would you still think that he has a chance to be Nash like?

Should I assume he's the best he'll ever be?

An extreme example, but I thought Bernard Robinson (is your middle name Bernard? LOL Crash kills me!) was going to turn out well during/right after his rookie year. I was wrong on that. Potential is a hard thing to judge.

In DJ's case I was able to see some of his college games, so maybe that makes me a little biased in what I think his potential can be. I might be right and I might not be. Only the future can tell us that.

But that doesn't take away from the discussion going on in this thread...which is about NOW.

TOOT DADDY

04-07-2009, 04:03 PM

dnbman

04-07-2009, 04:05 PM

The troubling thing is which one? I thing defense and "can he take the poundings" works against DJ...shot selection and (on still too many occasions) poor decisions works against Ray...I like both players for different reasons...again...as for the assist (for me) I think he is capable but what is he being asked to do when he's on the court?

I definitely feel the same way: a very fair assessment.

Slam

04-07-2009, 04:08 PM

To play Nash like you have to play in a Nash like system nobody has seem to mention that point. We are a half court slow down team Nash was and is at his best running and I think this holds true for D.J. that's why im sure he would welcome a trade. Are there any great athletes besdes G.W. on this team? Damn sure aren't any on the second unit.
Same can be said with Felts though, so I don't buy that. Great PG's are great regardless of pace. Felts can get up and down the court like no mans business, but he can also run the pick and roll really well. You have to be able to play both up tempo and 1/2 court.

If DJ could only excel in an up tempo offense I wouldn't want him. He'd be too restricted IMO.

spectre

04-07-2009, 04:08 PM

I like both players for different reasons...again...as for the assist (for me) I think he is capable but what is he being asked to do when he's on the court?

This is escaping me (not picking on you BRNC...others have said this too)...is it a choice of creating for your team mates or shooting? Either/Or? Why can't he do both?

Slam

04-07-2009, 04:12 PM

Should I assume he's the best he'll ever be?
Of course not, but you are suggesting that right now, the only assists he can pull together are the ones he gets off jump shots - when he bothers to even dish them out.

His ability to score/shoot will never change - we all agree on that.

I'm suggesting that he is playing the role of a back up, rookie PG who has been openly asked by his coach to shoot more BUT still shows amazing play making ability/poise/creativity/ball placement etc.

Just that glimpse of amazing play making lets me know that he is still today very much Nash like just like he was a year ago when we drafted him and not built on potential, it's already there.

Slam

04-07-2009, 04:14 PM

This is escaping me (not picking on you BRNC...others have said this too)...is it a choice of creating for your team mates or shooting? Either/Or? Why can't he do both?
Do you get to see LB's post game comments on streams? I'm not sure when they cut the feed?

There must have been at least a dozen times when LB has said after a game that he wants DJ to shoot more. He has said himself that often DJ looks to pass first rather than shoot and LB wants him to shoot more.

BRNC

04-07-2009, 04:18 PM

spectre...my point is what is LB asking him to do...be the first scoring option?...I don't know...but in his defense (IMO) I see too many guys standing around on the second unit...some of this has to do with a poorly developed/implemented offense (again my opinion)...but if you're asked to be the number one scoring option/or your teammates stand around/or you have a crap offense to begin with or a combination of all three it will be hard to get assist...

I'll be the first to admit I don't get what exactly the problem is but I lean to my third option...Ray has better players to work with on the first unit (to be sure) but on too many occasions I see them not moving either so I tend to blame it on a poor offensive game plan/ or one simplified this year I hope)...

TOOT DADDY

04-07-2009, 04:23 PM

Do you get to see LB's post game comments on streams? I'm not sure when they cut the feed?

There must have been at least a dozen times when LB has said after a game that he wants DJ to shoot more. He has said himself that often DJ looks to pass first rather than shoot and LB wants him to shoot more.
L.B. does say that time after time and he gets after him when he doesn't shoot. So if Lb had a problem with him and assists im sure he would address it to the media open and honestly like he does.

TOOT DADDY

04-07-2009, 04:33 PM

spectre

04-07-2009, 04:37 PM

Aren't all of LB's comments posted on the main site?

There is a difference in continuing to move the ball around the perimeter and passing up an open look vs. probing the defense in the paint to see if you can draw said defense out a little and open a lane to the bigs underneath.

LB has continually harped on not settling for jump shots, but maybe DJ is the lone exception and he's telling him "do NOT take it into the paint".

Anything's possible I guess.

BRNC

04-07-2009, 04:42 PM

spectre I don't get it either...usually LB tears up PGs that shoot "too much"...my conclusion has been we have so little offense on the second unit that he wants DJ to shoot to open the floor for other players...but my key is the "so little offense" part of my argument...although I thought Vlad would help with that so I remain confused...

Slam

04-07-2009, 04:49 PM

Anything's possible I guess.
God knows we've had to endure that as an explanation for long enough!!

BRNC

04-07-2009, 04:51 PM

God knows we've had to endure that as an explanation for long enough!!

Problem is it may be the actual answer on too many occasions...LOL

TOOT DADDY

04-07-2009, 04:56 PM

How many pick and rolls can you run with Diop fumbling the ball? Try throwing it to Radmonvich anywhere other than behind the arc(Have you seen that hideous display of dribbling). There is a great fall off from first to second unit, Those leads aren't disappearing only because of D.J. Put Raymond with the second unit I bet he averages 25 shots a game after getting frustrated.

spectre

04-07-2009, 06:10 PM

I'm going to stick with my original reason in that he's just playing too conservatively, and I think a lot of it is being a rookie, being around some dominant personalities and probably a little fear of LB (maybe a lot!).

I remember watching a couple of games of DJ playing at Texas where he'd dribble down into the paint, looked trapped and make a fantastic pass to a big for a jam. Just like Paul with that hesitation step, he could manipulate thru a crowd of guys much bigger than him and would still make the right play.

THAT'S what I want to see. THAT'S what I haven't seen. He can get points like that just as easily as taking jump shots, but I haven't seen him try...he mostly stays on the perimeter. It doesn't make sense to me that LB would tell him not to do that, esp. since he did it so well in college.

TOOT DADDY

04-07-2009, 06:19 PM

Oaky I feel you on that last post. Let me tell you the difference. When felton calls a play himself to go to the basket 50 or Diaw one of them is going to block the path of the opposing teams big man to keep them from contesting the shot. I witnessed Diop watch D.J. call a play for him elf then watch him drive to the basket and didnt screen his man off underneath. Guess what ball slapped D.J. knocked to the floor this happens more often than not. Anyway, five games left and maybe Bell shuts it down and D.J. starts alll five and they will be like the prior ones he started. (Hope we win and gets his numbers though) You can do it!!!!

Slam

04-07-2009, 07:01 PM

It doesn't make sense to me that LB would tell him not to do that, esp. since he did it so well in college.
It doesn't make sense that LB would tell the worst shooter on our roster to take as many shots as he does or try and take over in the 4th, but that's the explanation we have no choice but to go with that too! I guess there is some method to the madness?

The difference is that we have actually heard from LB's mouth that he wants DJ to shoot more (actually, we have heard at times that LB wishes that Felts didn't shoot as much, but that is a totally different thread!!).

I do agree that we haven't seen the best of DJ - but I wouldn't expect to playing limited mins as a back up PG.

I just think that I have seen enough of what made him special for Texas and the 9th overall pick in the NBA to know that he still has it by the truck load.

spectre

04-07-2009, 07:09 PM

I just think that I have seen enough of what made him special for Texas and the 9th overall pick in the NBA to know that he still has it by the truck load.

He has a lot to work on, but he also has plenty of time.

teej

04-07-2009, 09:58 PM

DJ, 31 minutes, 6 assists 8 points. I'm happy with that, IDK about you

spectre

04-07-2009, 10:18 PM

DJ, 31 minutes, 6 assists 8 points. I'm happy with that, IDK about you

Not what I ultimately want (because I think he can do more), but much better no doubt.

Slam

04-07-2009, 10:32 PM

As a result of Felts shooting so well tonight DJ only really got to play the point in the 2nd half.

He wasn't bad - wasn't fantastic, but not bad tonight.

Slam

04-08-2009, 08:45 AM

Just wanted to add that I was very happy that in 31 mins of play and while dishing out 6 assists, DJ only turned the ball over the 1 time - and even that was questionable IMO. I thought he made a great move into the paint, faked out his defender with a little Dream Shake and made the shot all while keeping his pivot foot down.

I don't think he travelled.

spectre

04-08-2009, 09:24 AM

If I remember the play you're talking about IMO it was close and could have been a no call. I'll look at it again (because I have it on DVR!!!!!), but if memory serves someone got a hand on the ball as he was coming in, then it "looked" like his pivot foot shifted just a little right after he regrouped, and it was more of a slide vs. lifting up.

But regardless if it was or wasn't, I'm all for him getting in there and trying. It was a good move.

TOs are a double edged sword, and as I said earlier in another thread some are worse than others. I have no problem with anyone making a somewhat risky pass if it's trying to feed the interior guys, and the way we're crowded in the paint normally there will be TOs.

That lazy ass pass Mek did on the perimeter east to west? That's the kind that drive me crazy, as those almost always end in a fast break/layup dunk for the bad guys.