What is Felton worth?

[murphman]

This is a two part question. What is worth on the open market to other teams and what is he worth to us. I'm talking money and contract length. As strong as he looked in Jan. & Feb., he has come crashing back down as the season ended. His FG% has been debated in the other thread but the bigger question is how much has that damaged his stock?

Any chance of a 5 year/7.5 per seems unlikely now. Many factors will come into play this summer. 1) there are few teams with the cap space to offer him a high priced contract. 2) so many teams are saving space for the free agent monster pool in 2010. 3) other teams know that we may match. 4) (and this might be the biggest issue) Felton is at the age that his next contract will probably the "big one" or "career maker" and he only gets one crack at it. If the best offer is 6.25 per he may rather just sign his tender at 5.5 for one year and try to improve his stock under Brown's supervision and get a better offer next year. Yes, there is the injury factor to consider..I understand that. Yes, it makes him perfect trade bait to other teams meaning he may be in three cities over a short period of time. Yes, it means he will be competing with much bigger free agents next summer meaning there may be less of a pie to divy up his way.

For the Bobcats, the ideal situation would be for Felton to sign his tender, DJ to turn into a full time starter before the mid-season trade deadline, and Felton be packaged with Nazar (assuming we still have him which is likely) for a player to fill in our biggest hole at that time or perhaps a lottery pick.

Is Felton staying here long term really a wise decision? Two top ten lottery PG's on the same team for 4+ more seasons together?

[teej]

I think we definately need to keep Felton over DJ, he is more Larry's style point guard and has improved tremendously since LB got here. LB has warmed to him, and I think that is going to get Ray a lot of money, whether its now or next offseason. I think Ray is worth about 7-8 million per, and thats to be our starter. If we plan on letting DJ take over, which I wouldn't, then we don't need to let Ray get that kind of money. If Ray seems to think he's worth more, go ahead and make the qualifying offer, that can't hurt us any with the summer of LeBron coming up and the way the economy is. I just think Ray wants to be here enough and Larry likes him that we'll find a way to keep him

But 7-8 is my answer for any team wanting him to be a starter. MLE for backing up...

[BRNC]

I think it will be tough to keep Ray since I think 3-4 teams will make a push to sign him...Portland. Kings, Mavs (caveat:if J.Kidd leaves), and the Knicks (Robinson I believe has worn out his welcome with D'Antoni and if Nash extends with the Suns)...

Portland needs a defensive PG that can match with the elite PGs in the West, they are young and I think they will shy away from a rookie and instead make a push for Ray, he will not have to score for them (they have enough scoring options) and of the four I mentioned we may get the best sign and trade from them...

Kings are in a similar position with young talent and again I think they'll see Ray as a proven commodity...

The Mavs were already interested since J.Kidd does not defend the way he use to...in their case they need young legs to again match the elite PGs in the West...

I think the Knicks will come if Nash extends with the Suns...D'Antoni sees Ray as a PG that can push the ball and that is what he wants...

We will have to bid against teams that want him so it will be tough...and I think some of these teams feel they can get him in the 8-9 range and we will not match and they are not over-paying to get a quality defensive PG to match teams they have to match...

I like Ray (for us) in the 7ish range but I think he will be offered more...those are my best guesses...

[spectre]

Any chance of a 5 year/7.5 per seems unlikely now.

I disagree; tho I'd like to get him for less I think he's still worth that.


If the best offer is 6.25 per he may rather just sign his tender at 5.5 for one year and try to improve his stock under Brown's supervision and get a better offer next year. Yes, there is the injury factor to consider..I understand that. Yes, it makes him perfect trade bait to other teams meaning he may be in three cities over a short period of time. Yes, it means he will be competing with much bigger free agents next summer meaning there may be less of a pie to divy up his way.

For the Bobcats, the ideal situation would be for Felton to sign his tender, DJ to turn into a full time starter before the mid-season trade deadline, and Felton be packaged with Nazar (assuming we still have him which is likely) for a player to fill in our biggest hole at that time or perhaps a lottery pick.

Is Felton staying here long term really a wise decision? Two top ten lottery PG's on the same team for 4+ more seasons together?

That above is worst case scenario...for US. If we let him play on the QO then we're pretty much assured he'll walk for nothing in '10. There's teams who have been promising their fans they'll get a higher end player as an excuse for sucking so much...only there won't be any to be had. If Felton takes it to '10 (and if I were his agent he most likely would) I imagine he'll get paid.

Look at Corey Maggette and the golden situation he found himself in and GSW.

Also, if he takes the QO he must approve any trade...so there will be no "let's tie Felton to Nazr" ideas unless it's something he wants to do.

I also don't understand your last paragraph. DJ is on a rookie deal thru the '11-'12 season, allowing us to pay Felton and cover the position at a decent amount.

As Teej & BRNC said I'd be content with a Jameer Nelson type contract, basically in the mid 7ish range.

[ammofan]

Most likely, I think, Felton is gonna be gone this summer. And you guys are saying Felton is more of LB's type of point guard, then why would Larry Brown go out of his way last second during the draft, to make sure we drafted DJ? Honestly, as great as DJ is and could be, I would've rather had Brook Lopez and then Chalmers(If he was available at 20.)

[dnbman]

Most likely, I think, Felton is gonna be gone this summer. And you guys are saying Felton is more of LB's type of point guard, then why would Larry Brown go out of his way last second during the draft, to make sure we drafted DJ?


Man, this has been answered like 20 million times. To recap:

Brown didn't know what he had in Felton.
He knew he needed a pg one way or the other (to start or for depth.)
He thought Augustin was one of the better players in the draft.

In no way does drafting Augustin mean that Felton is out, though it does allow us to move Felton and still have a solid pg. But, then we'd have the depth issue to contend with.

I don't know if Felton is going to stay or not, but I hope we can resign him for about $7M a season or less.

[murphman]

Another thing to consider is the draft. Of the 5-6 teams that may have interest in him and the cap space to bring him in, at least 2 or 3 have an opportunity to address PG with their lottery pick. Thus by the time free agency begins the pool of teams interested now may be smaller.

Dallas is already on the hook for nearly 69 million next year and that is only for 8 players. Atlanta may be interested if they lose Bibby (that would suck for us). Detroit seems to be a very strong candidate unless Stuckey is a lock to be the future starter.

[ALong13]

3 years 21 million dollars...

2009/2010 Season -6 million
2010/2011 Season -7 million
2011/2012 Season -8 Million

[Marvel]

To me DJ has more talent and potential than Ray. He's a better scorer and his playmaking skills wil get better over time.Durant was asked in a S.I interview who were the best shooters in college and he named DJ,J.D Lewis and someone else... the name escapes me.The time to move Felton is now and to me he hasn't gotten any better this year his assists are down his turnovers are up which is more frustrating to me than any other stat to tell you the truth, his fg% is down from last year.He still has value though and could be a better player in a differrent system say a faster more free flowing one,trade him to move up in the draft.

[mrtarheel]

To me DJ has more talent and potential than Ray. He's a better scorer and his playmaking skills wil get better over time.Durant was asked in a S.I interview who were the best shooters in college and he named DJ,J.D Lewis and someone else... the name escapes me.The time to move Felton is now and to me he hasn't gotten any better this year his assists are down his turnovers are up which is more frustrating to me than any other stat to tell you the truth, his fg% is down from last year.He still has value though and could be a better player in a differrent system say a faster more free flowing one,trade him to move up in the draft.

Move up in the draft to get what?

Felts gives us heart, not as much as Wallace but toughness and defense. We should keep him if we could get him for about 8 mill max. You can't begin to build a team and then tear it down. Our core of untouchables should be Wallace, Felts, Bell, Diaw, Dj, and Ok50 but if the right deal came along for ok50 it could get a second look.

[Marvel]

I said this before to get Griffin,Harden and quote me on this he(Griffin) will be a beast,All Star in the future,but that's a long shot.I see what you mean though i mean this years draft is pretty whack but we need to trade him now.The thing that scares me about DJ taking the starting role next year is his confidence.He has all the right tools but it will be his confidence,belief in himself that will determine his success as a starter if that happens.

[mrtarheel]

Just got finishes watching Gerald Wallace highlights on the other thread states it all for me. On everyone of G dud's alley oop dunks at the other end passing was none other than Felton. Not Diaw, Bell nor Dj but Felts. Teams play well but as you can see on the other thread where he is interviewing Felts, they have a bond. This team needs to stick together plus or minus a few pieces but not the core. his shooting percentage was down but who else did we have to take the shot at the end of games and when the shot clock is running down. Solidify this team with another starting caliber sg so when Raja is down we don't miss a beat prefer someone with handles about 6' 5" ish or more that can play along with DJ giving him his comfort zone, an inside scoring threat and we are golden.

[Slam]

his shooting percentage was down but who else did we have to take the shot at the end of games and when the shot clock is running down. .
God, I can't even begin to tell you how much I hate this cop out.

I keep hearing "well, Raymond has a better % of hitting buzzer beaters than someone like Kobe".

Well, guess what, even though "apparently" Kobe is worse at buzzer beaters than Raymond, Kobe STILL shoots 47% from the floor where as Raymond only shoots 40% from the floor (and has done his whole career).

So if Raymond is that much better at buzzer beaters than Kobe, Raymond must REALLY SUCK at standard shots?



Any way, I think he's worth 4/25. If he didn't like that I would let him play for the QO and would set my sights on someone like Jack, Sessions, Watson etc to replace him at probably even less than 4/25.

[ohara831]

God, I can't even begin to tell you how much I hate this cop out.

I keep hearing "well, Raymond has a better % of hitting buzzer beaters than someone like Kobe".

Well, guess what, even though "apparently" Kobe is worse at buzzer beaters than Raymond, Kobe STILL shoots 47% from the floor where as Raymond only shoots 40% from the floor (and has done his whole career).

So if Raymond is that much better at buzzer beaters than Kobe, Raymond must REALLY SUCK at standard shots?



Any way, I think he's worth 4/25. If he didn't like that I would let him play for the QO and would set my sights on someone like Jack, Sessions, Watson etc to replace him at probably even less than 4/25.

Totally agree with you. Totally.

[spectre]

I keep hearing "well, Raymond has a better % of hitting buzzer beaters than someone like Kobe".

Really? Who said that? I know someone posted a month or so ago something from 82games that had Felton pretty high % wise on buzzer beaters compared to others in the league, but that was back then.

I haven't seen that since then tho.

Regardless, here's a newsflash...Kobe Bryant is like the best player in the league on a max contract! If anyone tries to draw a tangent between Kobe & Felton they're just ignorant.


Totally agree with you. Totally.

Wow...big shocker there.

[TOOT DADDY]

Nobody should be untouchable on this roster. We are ending sub .500 with no true clutch star. Please don't say Gerald Wallace yeah he hustles and plays hard but I seen him dissappear in the clutch way to often this year. He is an all-star for three quarters of each game though.

[Slam]

Really? Who said that? I know someone posted a month or so ago something from 82games that had Felton pretty high % wise on buzzer beaters compared to others in the league, but that was back then.

I haven't seen that since then tho.
So you agree that you saw it but because it was written a month ago and you haven't seen it since, that makes the validity of the statement made less true?


Regardless, here's a newsflash...Kobe Bryant is like the best player in the league on a max contract! If anyone tries to draw a tangent between Kobe & Felton they're just ignorant.
I totally know what you mean. I was shocked when the Felton aplolgists brought up the comparison myself!! Seriously, some people just don't know when to stop - or when to cut out the excuses!!



Wow...big shocker there

Not everyone wears rose coloured glasses.

[dav7z]

Nobody should be untouchable on this roster. We are ending sub .500 with no true clutch star. Please don't say Gerald Wallace yeah he hustles and plays hard but I seen him dissappear in the clutch way to often this year. He is an all-star for three quarters of each game though.


People either love FELTS or hate him . Some even belive DJ is more starter ready right now. Is the love hate relationship a Carolina thing . Because i find it hard to not like Felts for any other reason . Hard noze hustle player giving a 100 percent all the time.

With that being said i can't see his value over a five year 35 milion deal . I see see DJ as a great insurance policy and a very good sixth man for the next four years.
Either way i can't see Felts catching all the crap he catches on this board unless it's a Carolina thing.

[spectre]

So you agree that you saw it but because it was written a month ago and you haven't seen it since, that makes the validity of the statement made less true?

I think maybe you should re-read what I wrote; I said I don't remember anyone comparing Felton to Kobe...at least until you just did in this thread.

Regardless...why would it be wrong to bring up a stat from 82games? I know a lot use stuff like "per 36" to try and justify a lot of things.


I totally know what you mean. I was shocked when the Felton aplolgists brought up the comparison myself!! Seriously, some people just don't know when to stop - or when to cut out the excuses!!

So more than one was comparing Felton to Kobe?

I definitely agree that there are those that don't know when to stop.

Those damn "fans"! I swear I don't know how you stay so unbiased towards Felton like you do!


Not everyone wears rose coloured glasses.

Definitely not...there are those that just need the prescription kind.

It makes total sense to offer Felton a couple of bucks over the MLE, force him to take the QO (which I'd do if I were him anyway) and lose him for nothing when we won't have the capspace to offer above a MLE deal to get another PG to replace him.

I bet we could even get Duhon! That'd show "them"!

[mrtarheel]

God, I can't even begin to tell you how much I hate this cop out.

I keep hearing "well, Raymond has a better % of hitting buzzer beaters than someone like Kobe".

Well, guess what, even though "apparently" Kobe is worse at buzzer beaters than Raymond, Kobe STILL shoots 47% from the floor where as Raymond only shoots 40% from the floor (and has done his whole career).

So if Raymond is that much better at buzzer beaters than Kobe, Raymond must REALLY SUCK at standard shots?



Any way, I think he's worth 4/25. If he didn't like that I would let him play for the QO and would set my sights on someone like Jack, Sessions, Watson etc to replace him at probably even less than 4/25.

Who was comparing him to Kobe? I was saying that the ball always ends up in his hands because no one else wants to take the shot. The team gets to passive at times and then he ends up throwing up a desperation shot.

[teej]

Rayomd is the only one who has the balls to take a last second shot, Raja is the only one who comes close. And I would much rather have Raja take that shot, but oh well.

I don't understand why there is a hatred for Felton, I understand a frustration that I experience all the time, but he is a quality player who is learning from one of the best coaches ever, and has that coach's seal of approval. He only takes over when no one else does, and for all Gerald's strengths, being the man and driving in the 4th quarter is something he seems hesitant to do. Raymond isn't. I like that in a player, and so does LB. At least try.

Toot Daddy had a good point (for once), although I don't know where it came from, no one is untouchable...not even Gerald. Although we're not going to get anything better from him, so he's basically untouchable.

[spectre]

Rayomd is the only one who has the balls to take a last second shot, Raja is the only one who comes close. And I would much rather have Raja take that shot, but oh well.

I don't understand why there is a hatred for Felton, I understand a frustration that I experience all the time, but he is a quality player who is learning from one of the best coaches ever, and has that coach's seal of approval. He only takes over when no one else does, and for all Gerald's strengths, being the man and driving in the 4th quarter is something he seems hesitant to do. Raymond isn't. I like that in a player, and so does LB. At least try.

Toot Daddy had a good point (for once), although I don't know where it came from, no one is untouchable...not even Gerald. Although we're not going to get anything better from him, so he's basically untouchable.

Very well said Teej!

It's like some latch onto "their guy", and when he's not doing everything they thought he'd do they feel the need to rip another player...like it'll distract or somehow make their guy look better.

If you pull for the team you pull for everyone.

[murphman]

Wide range of values place on him here. From as little as 5 mil. per to 8+ mil. per. I'm sure the truth lies somewhere in between.

[spectre]

An MVP race for the ages - Bill Simmons (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090415%5BB)


51. Raymond Felton (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=2753)

The guy I'd pursue this summer if I ran an NBA team. Ten weeks of trade rumors bounced off him and he never held a grudge. He has lottery pick pedigree (fifth overall in 2005), and if we've learned anything over the years, it's that many blue-chip point guards take awhile to "ferment" (for lack of a better word). He's one of the five or six best people in the league by all accounts. I've never seen a Bobcats game where he didn't play as hard as he could. The arc of his first four years looks exactly like Chauncey Billups, and like Chauncey, his game will open up once he starts making 3s. Just a lot to like. Someone will steal him this summer just like Detroit stole Billups in 2002. You watch.

[spectre]

What's Next For Felton? (http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=12290)


Felton's name had been kicked around a lot at the NBA trade deadline in February as word was spread around the league that Felton's camp was looking for a new deal in the $8 million per season range, a number the Bobcats were unwilling to consider and a number Felton's stats this season may help justify - 14.2 points per game, 6.7 assists per game, 1.5 steals per game on 40% shooting from the field and 80% from the foul line. This is good enough for 14th best among point guards in scoring and 11th best in assists per game. To put that in perspective, he's just ahead of Andre Miller and Chauncey Billups in assists and just below Mike Bibby and T.J. Ford in scoring – all four are making better than $8 million per season.

$8 million per season in this economy may be a hard sell, but getting paid this summer is almost a foregone conclusion for Felton. For his part, Raymond has been clear all season that staying with this bunch in Charlotte matters to him, and he's hopeful the business side can get handled quickly.
A starting point of 8 million is much better than it could be...I was afraid he was at 9 or better. If he does want to stay in Charlotte (and I think that's true; he's certainly said it enough) then I think something can certainly be worked out.

[Dead_Real]

Just seeing how highly Coach Brown spoke about Ray as a player on the season review press conference leads me to believe Felts will get paid & remain a Cat.

[GoBobs]

I think he is worth 8 mil easy. 5 years 40 mil is the number that sounded reasonable to me before the economy tanked harder then the celtics the year before they got the big three. I would probably match anything up to 10 to keep from losing him for nothing and I doubt any team will offer that. The bobs should offer 7 for 5 years with no options either way to start. Hopefully we can get that done but if we have to go to 8 that should be a no brainer also.

[spectre]

Since 8 is his asking price I feel much better about possibly getting him for something on the high end of 6 and 7 for sure.

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=11764

These are the teams with capspace. Things can change, but roughly:


Memphis Grizzlies - $20 million
Detroit Pistons - $16-17.7 million
Atlanta Hawks - $13-14.6
Oklahoma City Thunder - $10 million
Portland Trail Blazers - $9.1-16.7 million - the latter if they cut Travis Outlaw and Steve Blake before the end of June.
Utah Jazz - $9.0 million - if Boozer, Okur and Korver all opt out.
Sacramento Kings - $7.2 million
Toronto Raptors - $7 million

Honorable mention - but unlikely to be under:
Minnesota Timberwolves
Miami Heat
The most worrisome to me are Detroit and the Hawks. OKC was rumored to want him at the trade deadline and I also could see Sacramento and Minny (if they can free up some space) being interested.

[Slam]

6 or 7 a year sounds about right and fair to both parties.

10 a year would make me puke.

Hopefully the Pistons haven't lost faith in Stuckey and still view him as their future at the point? Wesbrook has done more than enough to lock that down for the Thunder. Who knows with the Hawks. There are a lot of points in this draft they might be happy with (I have them drafting Maynor on my draft), plus they still have Acie Law they used a high pick on. The Wolves are a head scratcher. Is Foye the guy they want to run the show? Hopefully the Kings land Rubio in the draft so they stay away from Felts!!

[spectre]

I'll admit the Thunder's interest in Felton to me was curious, but one guy can't play all 48 and both those guys can play spot minutes at the 2. On the flip their management has shown NO love for Watson and I think he's a pretty decent PG. Most assuredly they're letting him walk at the end of next season if they don't move him first.

Detroit is also an unknown if they decide to bust up their core (supposedly Sheed has said he's retiring). Just like above if Rip is out then I can see both Stuckey & Felton getting time together as well as subbing for each other at the point.

Wonder just how bad the Wolves feel about swapping for Foye now? Think maybe that was the straw that broke McHale's back? Who knows what they do, esp. if they get a competent GM.

Speaking of the Wolves...I think one of Jefferson or Love will end up on the block by the next deadline...Mek for Jefferson possibly?

Regardless, I think we can bring Felton back at a reasonable deal even if we end up moving him later on. I don't think Jordan is willing to give up assets, and I applaud him for that.

Edit:

And yes, the draft could affect everything because of the amount of PGs slotted to go in the 1st round. I don't know how many other than Rubio are starters out of the gate however.

[Slam]

I can't remember the time lines of the rumors. I know at the time it didn't seem to make any sense for the Thunder to want Felts. In saying that, PJ was playing Westbrook off the ball a lot at the start. It wasn't until he was axed that Westbrook starting playing the point full time, the new year that he was starting and after the ASW that Watson became an after thought for them.

I personally didn't like Foye before the draft, was shocked that the Wolves traded Roy for him and like him even less now I've had a chance to watch him in the NBA for a couple of years. I have Tyreke Evans going to them in my mock. I think he'd be a great fit there. I don't think Foye is a PG and I don't think that Evans is a PG so they sort of make up for each other.

I think of all the teams mentioned the Hawks are the biggest threat. They are close to being something of a contender so if they do lose Bibby, will want a point who could step in and start (hence, not a rookie) so they wont miss a beat - and they'll have money to burn. PLUS Atlanta is still some what close to South Carolina so that might be an attactive location for someone who loves the are as much as Felts. PLUS they have an ex-Tar Heel mate of Felts there ready to welcome him to the Hawks.

Of all the teams I see the Hawks the biggest threat to offer something too large to match.

What is the situation with their owners these days? Are they still a mess? Can they even make offers to players?

[spectre]

What is the situation with their owners these days? Are they still a mess? Can they even make offers to players?

I've been looking for a while and all I can assume is that the matter remains unresolved?

http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/2009/02/09/story13.html (http://www.bizjournals.com/Circuit)

says that the judge could rule back in February, but I found a thread on Hawksquawk where they were debating about the ownership just last week:

http://www.hawksquawk.net/community/index.php?showtopic=335453&pid=377231&mode=threaded&start=#entry377231

I'm guessing it's still unresolved.

What was the restriction...no new players with a contract over 3 years?

[Slam]

What was the restriction...no new players with a contract over 3 years?
For the life of my I can't remember - but that does sound kind of familiar. I thought at one stage, because the two parties just couldn't agree on anything, that they weren't able to offer anything to any player other than their own - but I might be confusing myself.

Either way, if their front office in in tatters maybe that will be enough to spook Felts from entertaining the idea of going there - because I really do see them as a big threat to stealing him.

If we lost him because someone offered him $10mil a year I would be more than ok with seeing him walk. If we lost him because someone offered him $6-$7mil a year and we wouldn't match I'd be pissed.

[spectre]

If he started out asking for 8 it definitely won't get near 10.

I'd settle for 7 and would probably match up to 8; just like with Crash & Mek I wouldn't let a million bucks force me to lose an asset. On the bright side other teams will know that and be hesitant to throw a contract out there that we'd most likely match anyway.

I just don't want it getting to the QO stage. When we didn't trade him we pretty much set our path and Jordan knew that.

[110oldeast]

It will be interesting to see if Portland makes a move. They seem to want to upgrade the pg slot and it would be a good fit for Felton.

[GoBobs]

Andre Miller is also on the market. He might be very good for us actually as a backup 2 if he doesn't command a high price. He could play the backup point behind Felton and dj could play the 2 then they could switch on D.

[Ghost Kat]

This point may have been made in this post already but did Felton actually improve this year?? He had an up and down year. Some games he was great some games he was horrible. He still can't shot. He still tries to take over late in games, with no effect. He does move the ball well and He does show true grit and effort. I'm a little torn on this. I'm not sure DJ is a 100% ready, But when he starts He plays great in his 48 mins. DJ as a rookie pushed Felton for the starting spot. That doesn't say much for a 4th yr starter. If we sign Felton it shouldn't be a long term deal. If we can trade him for some better pieces i'm fine with that.

[dav7z]

This point may have been made in this post already but did Felton actually improve this year?? He had an up and down year. Some games he was great some games he was horrible. He still can't shot. He still tries to take over late in games, with no effect. He does move the ball well and He does show true grit and effort. I'm a little torn on this. I'm not sure DJ is a 100% ready, But when he starts He plays great in his 48 mins. DJ as a rookie pushed Felton for the starting spot. That doesn't say much for a 4th yr starter. If we sign Felton it shouldn't be a long term deal. If we can trade him for some better pieces i'm fine with that.

Felton is ranked in the top 60 players in the league. Hes ranked 13th in point guard stats in the league . That doesn't include the little things hes does[defence , steals , toughness] So thairs value thair and inprovment in his game even shot selection got better the second half of the season . Shooting more midrange jumpers and less threes and knowing when to drive and when not to all inprovements. But more work is needed in those areas.

Agreeded if he could be traded for better pieces im for it. Sign and trade makes his value much less than it was be for the trade deadline.
Portland , Golden State , Atlanta, Dallas, come to mind when talking about a move with Felton.

I think his going rate is seven milion a year for five to six years . He might even go for eight or nine. As a Felton fan and Bobcat fan . I wouldn't match anything over eight milion as tough as times are now...

[teej]

This point may have been made in this post already but did Felton actually improve this year?? He had an up and down year. Some games he was great some games he was horrible. He still can't shot. He still tries to take over late in games, with no effect. He does move the ball well and He does show true grit and effort. I'm a little torn on this. I'm not sure DJ is a 100% ready, But when he starts He plays great in his 48 mins. DJ as a rookie pushed Felton for the starting spot. That doesn't say much for a 4th yr starter. If we sign Felton it shouldn't be a long term deal. If we can trade him for some better pieces i'm fine with that.

He's inconsistent, but he became more consistent and more effective on defense, so I'd call that improving. And that's in addistion to the general taking better shots and thinking deal that comes with Larry Brown. So yeah, he improved. And there's no way DJ's ready yet, otherwise LB woulda started him more than he did. This was Felton's first year of true coaching, too. And who else tried to take over int he 4th. I didn't see Gerald or Boris or Mek growing a pair. Just Ray...

[mrtarheel]

The only way we get rid of Felts is if one of LB's old pgs comes avaliable. We loose or pg depeth because we would only have Dj who know's the system. I say we keep him on a 4yr/7.5mil deal. This would give us the flexibility when Dj's contract comes up he would have 2 yrs left on his and still would be young enough for trade deadline deals.

[GoBobs]

The year before last you could pretty much write Felton down to go 3/10. You could also pressure him in the back court speeding him up and increasing the chance of a turnover. He also had several totally unforced turnovers. Part of the problem that year was there was no one to help him handle the ball when we had J-Rich in the back court with him.

Watching him play this year I felt like he was turning the corner. There were times when I felt like Ray taking the shot was our best option. He had a career high in rebounds steals and blocks. If this is his peak he is already a very good player and worth in the 5-7 mil range. If he is turning the corner he could very well still become a great player like Billips.

[davcbow]

The year before last you could pretty much write Felton down to go 3/10. You could also pressure him in the back court speeding him up and increasing the chance of a turnover. He also had several totally unforced turnovers. Part of the problem that year was there was no one to help him handle the ball when we had J-Rich in the back court with him.

Watching him play this year I felt like he was turning the corner. There were times when I felt like Ray taking the shot was our best option. He had a career high in rebounds steals and blocks. If this is his peak he is already a very good player and worth in the 5-7 mil range. If he is turning the corner he could very well still become a great player like Billips.


4/12 isnt much better, actually its worse % points wise..... although the last few games he didnt do too bad..... if we keep him I pray he starts shooting much better but take less shots. I also hope we find that shooter we need so bad....:cool:

[GoBobs]

He was more like 4/10 last year (.408 ) not sure where you are getting the 4/12. I think he got the bad shooting % rap in 06-07 when he shot .384

[SWedd523]

4/12 isnt much better, actually its worse % points wise..... although the last few games he didnt do too bad..... if we keep him I pray he starts shooting much better but take less shots. I also hope we find that shooter we need so bad....:cool:
3/10 is .300
4/12 is .333

[KT#20]

Take away the 80 end-of-quarter shots and Felton has a respectable shooting percentage for a point guard.

[TOOT DADDY]

5 yrs 40 million for felton? Nah! Sign and trade better option bring in a veteran for less money. Signing felton to that amount we won't be a player in free agency for years. No one wants to take Okafors over paid contract same for Mohammaed I would need to see another year of improvemment before being able to justify that type of deal. Sticky situation money wise. Has anyone forgot Bob Johnson is our owner.

[teej]

Hey toot daddy, I don't know if you now this but Felton is already being compared to Chauncey Billups, and we aren't going to be players in free agency anyway. There are pleny who want Okafor's contract, considering he's way less than those performing much worse than him. I really don't understand where you're coming from

Anyways, back to intelligent conversation, Felton was .414% last year, and .408% this year. what he needs to work on is his three ball, which was .280% last year and .285% this year. If he could get that back up to the .358% it was his rookie year, I think we'd all be pretty happy with him on the whole. And I'm pretty sure he's the most durable guy on the roster, he played the 5th most minutes in the NBA this year and has never played in fewer than 78 games in a season. Beats Mek.

[Slam]

Anyways, back to intelligent conversation
If you can't keep it classy I guess it's the only thing you have left?

Way to belittle another posters opinion.

[teej]

If you can't keep it classy I guess it's the only thing you have left?

Way to belittle another posters opinion.

Maybe it wasn't classy, but he just straight up denied what is close to Felton's going rate on the free agent market, flat out lied about nobody wanting Mek, and doesn't seem to realize that Rod, MJ, and Bob have already said they werent planning on being players in free agency. Ever.

Maybe I'm just fed up with his knowitall attitude...if you havent read his other posts...like saying larry brown has made no impact on this team.

[davcbow]

He was more like 4/10 last year (.408 ) not sure where you are getting the 4/12. I think he got the bad shooting % rap in 06-07 when he shot .384

It seems every time I looked at his stats this season as the game was going on he would be shooting between 3-10 and 4-12 in the 3rd or 4th quarter except the last several weeks of the season he did pick it up some and he did have several really good games at the beginning and during the season. I dont really go by stats, I go by how much a players shots helped or hurt us during the game. I will say this, when he is good on offense he is real good and when he has a bad night its a real bad night. He is our best option right now but he needs to be good consistantly shooting the ball when he is required to shoot. I dont have any problems with resigning him as long its within reason....

To swedd523 that was in a hurry and off the top of my head on the % thing..... my bad...:cool:

[SWedd523]

To swedd523 that was in a hurry and off the top of my head on the % thing..... my bad...:cool:
no worries ;)

I have this AP Calculus test tomorrow running through my head so I'm all picky on numbers right now. No harm no foul

[teej]

no worries ;)

I have this AP Calculus test tomorrow running through my head so I'm all picky on numbers right now. No harm no foul

Good luck, I have AP European History Friday...AP week :mad:

[dnbman]

Good luck, I have AP European History Friday...AP week :mad:

Why so serious?

[dav7z]

Why so serious?

Because it's raining hear in Charlotte and the wind is blowing. Life is hell when you don't have enough hair on your head to keep the rain from running down into your eyes.

[TOOT DADDY]

Hey toot daddy, I don't know if you now this but Felton is already being compared to Chauncey Billups, and we aren't going to be players in free agency anyway. There are pleny who want Okafor's contract, considering he's way less than those performing much worse than him. I really don't understand where you're coming from

Anyways, back to intelligent conversation, Felton was .414% last year, and .408% this year. what he needs to work on is his three ball, which was .280% last year and .285% this year. If he could get that back up to the .358% it was his rookie year, I think we'd all be pretty happy with him on the whole. And I'm pretty sure he's the most durable guy on the roster, he played the 5th most minutes in the NBA this year and has never played in fewer than 78 games in a season. Beats Mek.

They won't be players in free agency? Do you honestly believe Larry Brown is in love with this team and won't push for a major move? My brother in law plays for the Bobcats so I would think I know more that goes on behind the scenes then most paper gm's at least when it comes to the bobcats. As far as Felton being compared to Billups. Everyone is compared to someone. (Morrison/Larry Bird) Felton gets the same per year contract as the Magic gave Nelson not a penny more and less years. That is my opinion.:cool:

[SWedd523]

That is my opinion.:cool:
That is a good opinion.

[spectre]

They won't be players in free agency? Do you honestly believe Larry Brown is in love with this team and won't push for a major move? My brother in law plays for the Bobcats so I would think I know more that goes on behind the scenes then most paper gm's at least when it comes to the bobcats. As far as Felton being compared to Billups. Everyone is compared to someone. (Morrison/Larry Bird) Felton gets the same per year contract as the Magic gave Nelson not a penny more and less years. That is my opinion.:cool:

Did you brother in law tell you how we were going to be players in FA when we'll be only like 2-3 million below the luxury tax (assuming we sign Felton to a Nelson contract like you said)?

BTW, I'd be fine with a Nelson type deal for Felton.

[davcbow]

They won't be players in free agency? Do you honestly believe Larry Brown is in love with this team and won't push for a major move? My brother in law plays for the Bobcats so I would think I know more that goes on behind the scenes then most paper gm's at least when it comes to the bobcats. As far as Felton being compared to Billups. Everyone is compared to someone. (Morrison/Larry Bird) Felton gets the same per year contract as the Magic gave Nelson not a penny more and less years. That is my opinion.:cool:

In order to use free agency I believe that will reguire a major move to free up money like using Nazr 6.5M, Vlad 6.5M, Bell 5.3M, Felts 5.5M (as of now) or even Mek 10.5M, the possibilities are out there and LB knows how to wheel and deal....:cool:

[TOOT DADDY]

Mohammed doesn't want to be in charlotte. LB stated that Okafor doesn't love basketball (something he has played all his life) so evidently he is not sold on him. Vlad shot well at the beginning but faded off when LB wanted him to start doing more like going to the rack. So those three being gone is a possibilty just on what I mentioned alone and they are documented truths we all have read from LB's mouth. Brown likes Felton now but he was on his way out of here until D.J. got hurt. A deal for Randolph of Golden State was all but done. Why do so many people think that LB loves this team from top to bottom I don't know he put the best pieces together he could under the circumstances. If the team stayed the same with another year under LB we'll be pushing for the eight spot all over again and maybe coming up short again as well. Changes will and need to be made. Everyone falls in love with their home team players but when you can bring in better pieces and fall in love with winning it is so much better. Again that is my opinion. :cool:

[spectre]

It's not a matter of falling in love with the players but more about the corner we're backed into with all these full MLE salaries. Nazr might want out, but who would give up something that's not a worse contract for him? In regards to Vlad most ridiculed us for swapping Ammo for him because his contract was considered one of the worst in the NBA.

Mek I'll agree is a possibility to be moved, and cap space is indeed one of the reasons it might happen. If that goes down then I can see us playing in FA...but that's about the only way.

[teej]

Mohammed doesn't want to be in charlotte. LB stated that Okafor doesn't love basketball (something he has played all his life) so evidently he is not sold on him. Vlad shot well at the beginning but faded off when LB wanted him to start doing more like going to the rack. So those three being gone is a possibilty just on what I mentioned alone and they are documented truths we all have read from LB's mouth. Brown likes Felton now but he was on his way out of here until D.J. got hurt. A deal for Randolph of Golden State was all but done. Why do so many people think that LB loves this team from top to bottom I don't know he put the best pieces together he could under the circumstances. If the team stayed the same with another year under LB we'll be pushing for the eight spot all over again and maybe coming up short again as well. Changes will and need to be made. Everyone falls in love with their home team players but when you can bring in better pieces and fall in love with winning it is so much better. Again that is my opinion. :cool:

If you were really following the Nazzy storyline, you would know that we've been trying to move him ever since LB got here. No one will take his salary. As far as Ray, LB didn't know what he ahd with him (2 coaches, neither has much ability to asses Ray and use him well) which is why he drafted DJ and tried to trade Ray. He tried to trade Gerald too. But both players grew on him, both love Charlotte, and work well together. He sees DJ as more of an undersized shooting guard a la AI than he does a point. As far as Vladi, we got him for basically nothing, seeing as AmMo can't get off the bench and Shannon Brown is single-handedly making the Lakers-Rockets series interesting. He costs a fortune, and no one is going to take him, whether LB wants him gone or not. On your point on the free agency, MJ and Rod have repeatedly said they were going to build the team through trades and the draft. Not free agency. Raymond will get more than the 6.7 million that Jameer is getting for two reasons. 1) He has averaged better stats and done more for his team, and 2) He will want a raise from his rookie contact, and the QO for the rookie offer is the same as the first year of Jameer's contract. While I would love for him to be on the same numbers as Jameer, it's not happening. He'll be paid, by us or someone else.

[dav7z]

We as a team have a lot of bad contracts. True none of them is considered large . Buts it just so many.

Felton either gets seven to eight Million for five years or we match another offer.
A sign and trade is a option but its very few other options.
Nazz has a bad contract and has been on the block at least a year. He will have to be packeged if we hope to rid our self of him.
Valds contract is a cap space eater and he will be very hard to move.
Diops contract is long and very bad . Our best hope is he turns into a solid reserve.

Wallace could be moved but he is considered core . Unless we get a good offer Wallace stays.
Boris his contract is tradable and i could see him moved if it was for the right player and a good contract.
Bell . Is one of the two most tradable pieces on the team . He could bring high return with his contract lynth and his abilitys.
Mek his contract is tradable but more than likely unfavorable to us.
D.J Though just finising his rookie season hes showed he can play . And at a bargain price the next four years . He could bring in a very nice player if traded .
The rest have little value either way.

[110oldeast]

The part of the equation I don't think you are putting enough emphasis on is BEFORE DJ got hurt. That was a turning point, not just because it pointed out pg depth. It was a turning point b/c it forced LB to shake the BS baggage that was fed to him upon arrival about Felton not being a pg, being a combo, or whatever else. As LB had to play Felton exclusively at pg, he saw what Felton was/could be as a legit pg and play the way he wanted. He has said as much.

Furthermore, the other part of the equation that coincided with this revelation is that the team FOR THE FIRST TIME IN ITS HISTORY had a legit modern day NBA PF who could pick and pop in Diaw (May who was supposed to fill this void has never been healthy). The team also added Juwan Howard and Radmanovic who plays the 4 at times as well. I gurandamntee you if this type of player were here before now that SOME of the questions about running a team that folks had about Felton would not have been as great. Heck, he did pretty well running with Jake Voskuhl, b/c he had this skillset.

Finally, people always talk about Felton as if he turns the ball over 10 times a game. And while he certainly can have games where he has a sloppy game, on the whole he turns it over less than a lot of very prominent pgs. The problem is that folks on this board watch every single Bobcats game magnifying the ones where he struggles (leading to thoughts of all his shooting nights being 3 for 10, 4 for 12, etc. while turning it over a bunch), while the main ones they see out of other pgs are the ones on sportscenter which are good games for them. This leads to the misconception that all their games are great while most of Felton's are poor and below average. The truth is in the middle.


Mohammed doesn't want to be in charlotte. LB stated that Okafor doesn't love basketball (something he has played all his life) so evidently he is not sold on him. Vlad shot well at the beginning but faded off when LB wanted him to start doing more like going to the rack. So those three being gone is a possibilty just on what I mentioned alone and they are documented truths we all have read from LB's mouth. Brown likes Felton now but he was on his way out of here until D.J. got hurt. A deal for Randolph of Golden State was all but done. Why do so many people think that LB loves this team from top to bottom I don't know he put the best pieces together he could under the circumstances. If the team stayed the same with another year under LB we'll be pushing for the eight spot all over again and maybe coming up short again as well. Changes will and need to be made. Everyone falls in love with their home team players but when you can bring in better pieces and fall in love with winning it is so much better. Again that is my opinion. :cool:

[teej]

The part of the equation I don't think you are putting enough emphasis on is

I don't think he wants to, he wants Ray out of here so DJ can start, or DJ traded so D can start, he's said as much in his posts.

Other than that, I agree 100% with your post. +1

[TOOT DADDY]

Felton has done more for his team. In what way? Leading us to falling short of the playoffs? I guess he is solely responsible for the best bobcats season ever what 4-5 more wins. Wow! Larry Brown won't be here long enough to build through a draft. Playing DJ as much as he did was the exception not the norm. We'll see expect Okafor out. Larry Brown gives him a A+ for stretching but says he is failing at basketball. lmao How can someone who strecthes for hours at a time be so damn stiff.:g:

[dav7z]

It's hard to look at this and not want to keep him. He has more drive to get better than any player i've seen in this league for years. His love for this team seems to come first .That and his desire to help take the team to places it's never been be for.
Hes never satified with his self and knows only hard work will make him better.
Last money doesn't seem to be a big factor for him . It seems to be team first.

http://www.nba.com/bobcats/video_0809_review_felton.html

Thoughts

[spectre]

No doubt MJ is salivating just a little with Felton's emphatic "I will be here next season".

Can we say discount?

[TOOT DADDY]

Felton is a good tough player. Only time will tell if he is more being this is his contract year I expect all that he is saying. What year is this? If you can shoot you can shoot if you are turnover prone you are turnover prone those things are attributes of the player not the coaches. (Just for the he has had so many different coaches rant). Nelson was averaging 16.7ppg 5.4asst shooting 45% from three and 50% inside and Felton is worth more than that production. Did any of you guys know that not everybody gets paid that wears the jordan brand? Only a select few do and others just get free gear. D.J. is one that gets paid and he plays for charlotte. Just dropping an interesting tidbit.

[dav7z]

Felton is a good tough player. Only time will tell if he is more being this is his contract year I expect all that he is saying. What year is this? If you can shoot you can shoot if you are turnover prone you are turnover prone those things are attributes of the player not the coaches. (Just for the he has had so many different coaches rant). Nelson was averaging 16.7ppg 5.4asst shooting 45% from three and 50% inside and Felton is worth more than that production. Did any of you guys know that not everybody gets paid that wears the jordan brand? Only a select few do and others just get free gear. D.J. is one that gets paid and he plays for charlotte. Just dropping an interesting tidbit.

Felton has been the one working out ever day , ever summer . Trying to get the team toghter , playing pick up games . From the first year of of his contract til now.
One can cut down his abilitys all they want because ever one has a favorite.
But his desire and toughness and will to win should go undisputed. By far he has a better work ethic and desire to win than 95% of the players in the NBA.

[GoBobs]

There is nothing anyone can say about his attitude or his character. He has been everything we could want in that department. He is also one of the best guards in the league at chasing down loose balls which is why he gets so many rebounds.

I love what DJ has done as a rook and don't want to give him up even if we could add like a Lawson or a Curry. He is good at shooting creating and driving. He still has to prove he can play D before he is considered an NBA Starter. I think he will be able to do it but, even if he can no way do we get rid of Felts. They have proven they can play together and you can never have enough speed in the back court.

[teej]

With Raja's injury troubles, I wouldnt be surprised to see DJ play the 2 a lot this year, especially if we keep Dontell to play backup point.

Watching that video combined with Dj's reminded me that while DJ is the guy I want to hang out with, Ray is my guy when I'm starting a team. DJ is a piece (scoring small guy) that is easily replaced, Felton (leader since day 1, which DJ hasn't been, and still a great guard) on the other hand is not.

Hey toot daddy, please hold the accolades for DJ Augustin. Since you love him so much, would you accept him saying that LB helped tremendously? Because he did...

[TOOT DADDY]

He did say that LB helped frustrate the hell out him. He does exactly what Larry Brown wants him to do shoot. Im not going to hold the accolades neither did the NBA all rookie second team missing the amount of games he did. Felton was a leader from day one, leading a bunch of where are they now slap d#cks. (Primoz Brezec, Jumaine Jones, Melvin Ely, Bernard Robinson, Jake Voskuhl, Alan Anderson, Kevin Burleson, Lonny Baxter). We'll see who has the better career Felton is four years in and D.J. is one and I believe he ranked top ten in at least two statistical categories this year.. Im positive he is here in houston already working for next year with the primary goal of getting stronger. Tee j in December you were ready to let Felton go screaming trade and thats after seeing him lead for three years. Now all of a sudden he is a top tier point guard almighty. We'll see^-^

[teej]

First, he's not a top PG. Not yet, anyway. If he can shoot, then he will be one.

Second, when I joined in late December, I had watched 5 Bobcats games my life. and been to two, under the SamHole. I thought Felts was just a combo guard, and all that bs Bernie and sam fed us. Just like LB, I didn't know what we had. I just read a few things I posted, and I'd take every one of them back.

[TOOT DADDY]

Well you said he is already being compared to Chauncy Billups. Felton is a middle tier pg and thats where he will stay little over maybe. Billups isn't a dynamic shooter never has been but he is definitely a top point guard. Well we know D.J. at least has shooting down already and when he is asked to create more and shoot less that'll kill the assist argument. What is left defense? Nash is suspect on defense always has been? We shall see man I can't wait for next season TOOT! TOOT!:biggrin:

[spectre]

Well you said he is already being compared to Chauncy Billups. Felton is a middle tier pg and thats where he will stay little over maybe. Billups isn't a dynamic shooter never has been but he is definitely a top point guard. Well we know D.J. at least has shooting down already and when he is asked to create more and shoot less that'll kill the assist argument. What is left defense? Nash is suspect on defense always has been? We shall see man I can't wait for next season TOOT! TOOT!:biggrin:

I hate fanboys who constantly try to pit one player against another.

[SWedd523]

Well you said he is already being compared to Chauncy Billups.
He did say that, and he's correct.


From ESPN: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090415

51. Raymond Felton (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=2753)
The guy I'd pursue this summer if I ran an NBA team. Ten weeks of trade rumors bounced off him and he never held a grudge. He has lottery pick pedigree (fifth overall in 2005), and if we've learned anything over the years, it's that many blue-chip point guards take awhile to "ferment" (for lack of a better word). He's one of the five or six best people in the league by all accounts. I've never seen a Bobcats game where he didn't play as hard as he could. The arc of his first four years looks exactly like Chauncey Billups, and like Chauncey, his game will open up once he starts making 3s. Just a lot to like. Someone will steal him this summer just like Detroit stole Billups in 2002. You watch.

[Chef]

so here is a thought that i don't think has appeared yet. boris, crash, mek ie central core of the team are in there "age defined" primes. felton is improving and is undoubtably in the top 15 point guards in the league. if we let him go or trade him and go with dj at point or draft another point, we would be wasting our core's prime years. it takes a pg at least 3 years to be championship caliber. the other option is going with dj plus a lesser veteran pg, but we had better get a hell of a sg or offensive big man in the felton trade. it takes a very solid pg to lead a championship team or an outstanding supporting cast. i think we are forced to resign him or consider starting over.

[TOOT DADDY]

so here is a thought that i don't think has appeared yet. boris, crash, mek ie central core of the team are in there "age defined" primes. felton is improving and is undoubtably in the top 15 point guards in the league. if we let him go or trade him and go with dj at point or draft another point, we would be wasting our core's prime years. it takes a pg at least 3 years to be championship caliber. the other option is going with dj plus a lesser veteran pg, but we had better get a hell of a sg or offensive big man in the felton trade. it takes a very solid pg to lead a championship team or an outstanding supporting cast. i think we are forced to resign him or consider starting over.

It takes a point guard 3yrs to be championship caliber. Huh! What years is this for Felton ? The bobcats didn't make the playoffs. Championship caliber?
last I checked we only won 4 games more than last year and didn't make the playoffs. D.J. for president! Just kidding, for starting pg or trade though, fanboy these!:cool::cool:

[Ghost Kat]

Another summer, Another Felton fight. With no real back up SG I'm more inclined to keep Felton right now. I'm not a big fan of Felton logging so many minutes though. Felton to me is a Rajon Rondo clone. But IMO Rondo is better. We agree Felton hustles and is a leader but the center of the Cav's , big Z shot a better 3pt % last year. Felton probably needs to stay, But we have no idea who we can get in a trade for him. LB knows what he's worth so ILBIT when it comes to picking players for his team.

[teej]

It takes a point guard 3yrs to be championship caliber. Huh! What years is this for Felton ? The bobcats didn't make the playoffs. Championship caliber?
last I checked we only won 4 games more than last year and didn't make the playoffs. D.J. for president! Just kidding, for starting pg or trade though, fanboy these!:cool::cool:

4 years, three coaches. This is his first season being just a PG. Don't think DJ would be the same, or even worse. Ray is the ultimate team player, so DJ might have complained or asked for a trade. Like AmMo. And I'm amazed we got 32 last year, considering the dumbshit lineups and other stupid stuff that is a Sam Vincent. LB was left with a mess, and he's made the team a legitimate contender that most are predicting will make the playoffs. Oh and uh, I doubt DJ would start on many other teams, either.

[davcbow]

4 years, three coaches. This is his first season being just a PG. Don't think DJ would be the same, or even worse. Ray is the ultimate team player, so DJ might have complained or asked for a trade. Like AmMo. And I'm amazed we got 32 last year, considering the dumbshit lineups and other stupid stuff that is a Sam Vincent. LB was left with a mess, and he's made the team a legitimate contender that most are predicting will make the playoffs. Oh and uh, I doubt DJ would start on many other teams, either.


If Ray could just shoot better then I would agree with you 100%....:cool:

[GoBobs]

Defense is not a small thing that can be overlooked it is like half the game. Nash might have won some MVP's but how many rings does he have.

[Slam]

Defense is not a small thing that can be overlooked it is like half the game. Nash might have won some MVP's but how many rings does he have.
How many rings does Gary Payton have?

[TOOT DADDY]

Defense is not a small thing that can be overlooked it is like half the game. Nash might have won some MVP's but how many rings does he have.
For all that Gary Payton (The Glove) defense he has zero rings. Just like everyone on the bobcats not named Larry Brown. I can name one team DJ would have been starting for the Trailblazers. Had Charlotte not drafted him he would be the starting point on a playoff team. I never heard anyone call Tony Parker a good defender he has three rings. Aaron Brooks is the starting point guard here in Houston, anybody ever heard of him or saw this guy? Well he plays no defense at all and is about 5'7 all he is doing is giving the lakers fits in the second round of the playoffs. Jeff Van Gundy wouldn't let a player on the floor if he wasn't a very solid defender and guess how many rings he has. NONE! Who was Steve Kerr shutting down with Jordan? Kenny Smith was suspect? Help defense is the most important thing on defense because there are screens and picks on every play in the nba these days. So its good to have a great on the ball defender but if you don't have good help defense you won't have good defense period. So whats easier to teach how to play defense or how to shoot? Again this was D.J.'s first year in the NBA and he shot almost mid 40's from the three. He knows he has to get stronger and if his defense still sucks after four years its probally going to suck for his whole career. Just like somebody's shooting has sucked for four years..hint, hint Guess that is because of three different coaches:g:Oh! Mugsy had some killer defense as well.

[spectre]

Gary Payton? I don't understand the relevance. He was a great defender...never won a ring...ergo, great PG defenders don't win 'ships?



Midway through the 1996 NBA Finals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_NBA_Finals), Seattle coach George Karl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Karl) made the decision to assign Payton to play defense as a shooting guard instead of his normal point guard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_guard) assignment in order to defend Jordan. Though the Bulls won the series, Seattle's (and especially Payton's) defense held Jordan and the Bulls to their lowest offensive output in an NBA finals and "frustrated the best player in the game."[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Payton#cite_note-14) In his first three NBA Finals, Jordan averaged 36.3 points per game and had scored at least 30 points in 14 of his 17 games. However, in the 1996 Finals, Jordan averaged 27.3 points per game and scored more than 30 points in only 1 of the 6 games.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Payton#cite_note-15) In a game 5 preview after Payton had held Jordan to a career NBA Finals low of 23, an NBA pregame show described the rivalry of two strong defensive players renowned for their competitiveness.
"[In Game 4, Jordan had his] lowest output in a Finals game, much of it with Payton guarding him. Though afterwards, Jordan refused to give Payton credit, saying 'No one can stop me, I can only stop myself. I missed some easy shots.' The truth is, Jordan finds the NBA's Defensive Player of the Year [Payton] annoying. He views the [young Payton] as impudent, and he would love to have a big game at [Payton's] expense." (NBA on NBC Preview, Game 5)[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Payton#cite_note-16)
He played Jordan pretty damn strong, carrying it to 6 games and holding Jordan below average. I vaguely remember that series...and if I remember it it must have been good!

Regardless...Larry Brown is well known for building his teams on defense first. That's what we and the players have to deal with. I think if/when DJ's defense improves he'll have a good shot at supplanting Felton. Until that time tho I don't see that happening, at least as long as LB is in charge of this team.

FWIW, I do think DJ can become an adequate defender over time. With a re-signed Felton he'll have that time.

[spectre]

missed the 2nd part of that quote I put up:


The Sonics won that game by 21 points and Payton held Jordan to 26 points - Jordan's second-lowest-scoring Finals game in his career up to that point. In game 6, which the Bulls would win to capture the Championship, Payton played 47 minutes and Jordan missed 14 of his 19 shots, getting a career Finals low 22 points.[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Payton#cite_note-17) By the end of the series, Michael Jordan had been held under 30 points in 5 of the 6 games, including his three lowest-scoring Finals games up to that point (26 in Game 5, 23 in Game 4, 22 in Game 6). Bill Walton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Walton), commentating for NBC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBC) at the time, said Payton "outplayed" Jordan during the second half of the series, and that Seattle coach George Karl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Karl) would "rue" the decision to "hide [Payton] from 'the king'" in the early games of the series.[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Payton#cite_note-18) During this series, Payton and his Sonics also held Jordan's Bulls to the Bulls' lowest-scoring quarter in the Bulls' NBA finals history. Michael Jordan would never score fewer points in an NBA Finals game than his 22 points in game 6[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Payton#cite_note-19), and would never be held under 30 points more than twice in a Finals series, which the Sonics did five times. Something at the end of his wiki page:


On FSN's "Best Damn Sports Show", Payton said that he would accept $100 million to undergo a sex change and dominate the WNBAI loved "The Glove". Jordan was my boy, but Gary Payton was a blast to watch (and about the best rival to Jordan's title of "Best Sh*t Talker Ever").

There were a lot of great players who didn't win a ring, but it wasn't so much their weakness as it was having the bad luck of playing in the Jordan Era.

[Slam]

Gary Payton? I don't understand the relevance. He was a great defender...never won a ring...ergo, great PG defenders don't win 'ships?.
Just pure rebuttal on Nash not winning any rings insinuating that only great defending points win rings.

Parker has quite a few rings and he is a lousy defender.

I hate the hole "ring" angle when it comes to trying to prove a point. It's a team game - and like you rightfully said, guys like Malone, Stockton, Payton, Barkley aren't any less of players because they don't have rings, they just never had the team around them to be able to.

Just like KG before he got teamed up with Pierce and Allen.

[spectre]

Since this is starting to go off topic with the "Player A vs. Player B" thing, on a side note...did you ever watch Payton or get to see that matchup vs. Jordan? Man he was sooooo good. He was also like 6'4"...a nice sized PG which you seldom see anymore.

He wasn't Magic, but he brought his own skillset that made him great too, just different.

And I totally agree about the rings...IMO Malone & Stockton were an awesome duo but never smelled a 'ship. Was there ever a better big/PG tandem that didn't win it all?

[Slam]

Since this is starting to go off topic with the "Player A vs. Player B" thing, on a side note...did you ever watch Payton or get to see that matchup vs. Jordan? Man he was sooooo good. He was also like 6'4"...a nice sized PG which you seldom see anymore.
Naaaaa, didn't get to see too much growing up. We were lucky to get a game a week broadcast and usually only the finals (if that). One thing is for sure - if I ever played against someone like Payton I'd probably get suspended from the NBA because I'd knock his freaking yap trapping head off!!

(of course that shows he is VERY effective at what he does!!)

[spectre]

LOL, Raja on roids!

At least Raja is a gentleman when he's getting into his guy's head (well, loosely speaking; he doesn't really talk trash)...Payton was just pure asshole!

But he could back it up in spades.

[Ghost Kat]

The contract I see most talked about on this board is 5 yrs/8 mill. I don't want Felton for 5 yrs like Okafor. I think Ajinca or any other big we get in the future could easily move Okafor over to PF. Felton can be moved to SG but it's silly to do it. He's undersized for SG and can't shoot. Mainly from behind the arc. I'm fine with Felton runing the point next year and maybe another year. But sooner or later DJ will impove to starter worthy. The big complaint I've seen ya'll talk about is his defense. Far as i know he was never known as a lock down defender, plus he did get hurt around mid season. He said it affected him the rest of the season, mainly on sliding back and forth on defense. DJ just has a better up side after one year then Felton has had after 4 yrs. Plus at a cheaper price.

[dav7z]

The contract I see most talked about on this board is 5 yrs/8 mill. I don't want Felton for 5 yrs like Okafor. I think Ajinca or any other big we get in the future could easily move Okafor over to PF. Felton can be moved to SG but it's silly to do it. He's undersized for SG and can't shoot. Mainly from behind the arc. I'm fine with Felton runing the point next year and maybe another year. But sooner or later DJ will impove to starter worthy. The big complaint I've seen ya'll talk about is his defense. Far as i know he was never known as a lock down defender, plus he did get hurt around mid season. He said it affected him the rest of the season, mainly on sliding back and forth on defense. DJ just has a better up side after one year then Felton has had after 4 yrs. Plus at a cheaper price.


Glad to know DJ will be better than Felton two or three years from now.

Im sure Larry Brown or Felton dont know it. You could just send MJ. a email so we could just cut Felton instead of giving him a big contract wasting money during hard times.

[TOOT DADDY]

Give Felton 3yrs 22.5 mil and if he is turning into the elite pg most of you claim he is then in two years pay him like one. By then he will have had three solid years under LB and so will D.J.. After four years it's still unkown to most what Feltons max potential is, to others (like me) he peaked this year I mean hit the ceiling. He couldn't shoot with three different coaches and still cant shoot. Guess in all the leader of the pack called summer pick up games he didn't work on his shot. Again 3yrs 22.5 show me more.

[davcbow]

Give Felton 3yrs 22.5 mil and if he is turning into the elite pg most of you claim he is then in two years pay him like one. By then he will have had three solid years under LB and so will D.J.. After four years it's still unkown to most what Feltons max potential is, to others (like me) he peaked this year I mean hit the ceiling. He couldn't shoot with three different coaches and still cant shoot. Guess in all the leader of the pack called summer pick up games he didn't work on his shot. Again 3yrs 22.5 show me more.

That sounds like a good plan to me and logical too....:cool:

[Slam]

Give Felton 3yrs 22.5 mil and if he is turning into the elite pg most of you claim he is then in two years pay him like one. By then he will have had three solid years under LB and so will D.J.. After four years it's still unkown to most what Feltons max potential is, to others (like me) he peaked this year I mean hit the ceiling. He couldn't shoot with three different coaches and still cant shoot. Guess in all the leader of the pack called summer pick up games he didn't work on his shot. Again 3yrs 22.5 show me more.
This has pretty much been Spectre's stance from the start which I bought into very early on. Take the same approach we did with Crash (and should have with EO50). Give him 3 years at 6 mil a year and tell him that if he can show improvement in that time, he'll get PAID by the end of it.

The kicker is that at the same time DJ's rookie deal will be coming to an end and if Felts does produce we can trade DJ and give Felts the increase in salary he'd deserve. If DJ takes off and Felts regresses or stays the same, at 6 mill a year Felts still has a very tradeable contract and we go with DJ.

It's a win win.

[spectre]

Well, not exactly at 6 million, but the concept is the same. Crash & Felton are different because Crash's salary (and the 2 or 3 year deal we gave him) was a lot higher than the MLE...the dividing line between your player being available to 3 teams give or take vs. 30 teams. Crash didn't have as many options as Felton could have.

We do have the advantage of him REALLY wanting to stay here, so maybe 6 per would work with him. I have no problem with starting out low, but they need to be willing to pay what he's worth (and I think they will within reason).

22.5 at 3 years is over 7 which I think he's probably worth on the open market. You also have Larry Brown saying publicly that Felton has improved a lot this year (if you were Felton's agent wouldn't you bring that up?)...so this would be fine with me. I'm not especially hot on giving anyone a 5/6 year deal.

You guys better be glad I'm not Felton! If it was me I'd take the qualifying offer, become an UFA in '10 and take an 8 million per year deal with Donnie Walsh in NY and get some 'ships with Lebron! Remember they gave Duhon a full MLE deal...and they wanted Felton.

[spectre]

A little bit of a rant:

The MLE has really caused players' salaries to get way too high. You have too many teams bidding for too few FA players (which most are average) which cause these 5 year 7/7.5 average deals, and most are never worth that. Then you get a player like Felton who is probably worth realistically about 6 or 7 million who, when offered that, will look at guys like Gana & Vlad and think "you mean I'm only as valuable as those two guys to this organization?"

Not to mention they're a trap for teams where they use them and then get into financial trouble where they end up having to basicly rebuild to get out of the hole.

FWIW, I've read that the MLE is one of the things the League is looking to eliminate in the next CBA...and most likely for that reason above.

[Slam]

A little bit of a rant:

The MLE has really caused players' salaries to get way too high. You have too many teams bidding for too few FA players (which most are average) which cause these 5 year 7/7.5 average deals, and most are never worth that. Then you get a player like Felton who is probably worth realistically about 6 or 7 million who, when offered that, will look at guys like Gana & Vlad and think "you mean I'm only as valuable as those two guys to this organization?"

Not to mention they're a trap for teams where they use them and then get into financial trouble where they end up having to basicly rebuild to get out of the hole.

FWIW, I've read that the MLE is one of the things the League is looking to eliminate in the next CBA...and most likely for that reason above.
+1

The MLE has turned into a full salary which throws everything else out of proportion.

The same can be said for the issue with paying for C's. Underachievers like Jerome James and Dalambert etc get paid through the arse for being very average just because they are tall, have a pulse and can run without tripping over which means that guys that are tall and actually have some skill (see EO50) get grossly over paid.

I wish they could mandate players salaries.

[etothet]

Gary Payton? I don't understand the relevance. He was a great defender...never won a ring...ergo, great PG defenders don't win 'ships?


He played Jordan pretty damn strong, carrying it to 6 games and holding Jordan below average. I vaguely remember that series...and if I remember it it must have been good!

Regardless...Larry Brown is well known for building his teams on defense first. That's what we and the players have to deal with. I think if/when DJ's defense improves he'll have a good shot at supplanting Felton. Until that time tho I don't see that happening, at least as long as LB is in charge of this team.

FWIW, I do think DJ can become an adequate defender over time. With a re-signed Felton he'll have that time.
Did Gary Payton win a championship in Miami?

[spectre]

Did Gary Payton win a championship in Miami?

Hah! I totally forgot he was on Miami's team when they won the title! Of course that's different then leading a team to the 'ship during your prime, but he does have a ring.


On September 22, 2005, he signed a one-year $1.1 million contract with Miami, reuniting with Walker (who was acquired seven weeks earlier by the Heat), as well as former Lakers' teammate Shaquille O'Neal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaquille_O%27Neal). Payton finally won his first NBA Championship in his sixteenth season in the league when, on June 20, 2006, the Heat defeated the Dallas Mavericks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_Mavericks) in game six of the 2006 NBA Finals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_NBA_Finals) for a four to two series victory. Payton hit two crucial shots in that series: a game-winning shot in game three that ignited the Heat's comeback in the series (after being down 0-2) and, in game five, the Heat's final field goal in a one-point victory.+1

[Slam]

Steve Kerr has several rings too.

[teej]

Doesn't Sam Vincent have a ring?

[Ghost Kat]

Doesn't Sam Vincent have a ring?

I don't think they count onion rings

[teej]

I don't think they count onion rings

LOL but didn't he get one with the Celts? Or was it the Bulls? IDK, I just remember them billing him as a champion coach. Not that it translated...

[spectre]

I'm not one to look much at sites such as 82games, but I was reading another board and saw it mentioned that 82games breaks down assists into different types.

Out of all NBA players:

Felton is 10th overall (not just PGs, but all players) in total amount of assists.

He is 20th overall in assists that lead to dunks

He is 10th overall in total amount of assists that are "close".

He is 16th overall in assists that lead to a jump shot

He is 8th overall in assists that lead to 3 pointers.

Not that I'm implying that this helps or hurt his value...just thought it was interesting. :cool:

[teej]

I would say the dunks would be the cheap ones, would anyone be willing to calculate DJ's for that right here, http://www.82games.com/0809/RESORT4.HTM, I see him ther but I have neither the patience or time to calculate his. But that's a great site, I'm going ot have ot play around with some of their numbers, it mght help.

[Slam]

Great find!



He is 20th overall in assists that lead to dunks

He is 10th overall in total amount of assists that are "close".


These are my two favs. I might be wrong but these two say to me that he was driving the ball, drawing the D then getting the ball to the open guy for the easier basket.

That's the Felts I like to see and hey, who knows, if EO50 and Boris didn't share a mangina and actually dunked the ball more often, maybe Felts would be ranked higher than 20!!

[teej]

Great find!



These are my two favs. I might be wrong but these two say to me that he was driving the ball, drawing the D then getting the ball to the open guy for the easier basket.

That's the Felts I like to see and hey, who knows, if EO50 and Boris didn't share a mangina and actually dunked the ball more often, maybe Felts would be ranked higher than 20!!

No, no sharing, I think they both have their own, and both are bigger than any pussy you can find on a girl.

And actually I was looking and it might be better to do something with the total assists Ray (or DJ) has, and the numbers for each of the categories since they have that, although I don't know what. It's just frustrating and at the same time relieving that the team has wayyyyyyyy more in depth stats than we do on this, and they know exactly what he does when stuff happens. Its almost like baseball now, except for defense, and thats what LB's for. THough with Daryl Morey around, LB might be obsolete soon!

[spectre]

Great find!



These are my two favs. I might be wrong but these two say to me that he was driving the ball, drawing the D then getting the ball to the open guy for the easier basket.

That's the Felts I like to see and hey, who knows, if EO50 and Boris didn't share a mangina and actually dunked the ball more often, maybe Felts would be ranked higher than 20!!

Yeah, those were the ones I was looking at too. The 3 pt assists are a double edged sword...I'd like to think those were coming from drives and kick outs, but I know that's not really so.

Anyone know a site where you can sort stats by position? I'm curious to see if LB was right and Crash was the leading SF rebounder.

[Slam]

This is the best I could do:

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/byposition?pos=F&conference=NBA&year=season_2008&sort=26&qualified=0

[spectre]

This is the best I could do:

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/byposition?pos=F&conference=NBA&year=season_2008&sort=26&qualified=0

Thanks! I'll bookmark that one.

From what I can tell Crash was the leading rebounder if you consider Jamison & Marion PFs.

What's weird is that site won't filter Crash as a SF but only as "F". Same thing with the PGs; both Felton & DJ don't show up as PGs but as "G".

[Slam]

I know, it's stupid. I've never been able to work that out myself.

If they are going to do that they might as well list someone like Kobe as a G because he plays the point as much as he does the off guard.

[110oldeast]

Yeah, those were the ones I was looking at too. The 3 pt assists are a double edged sword...I'd like to think those were coming from drives and kick outs, but I know that's not really so.

I actually think more come off penetration and kicks than it seems. He's not really getting m
many off of simply swinging the ball to someone. He had quite a few drive and kicks to DJ for 3s and MOST of Diaw's 3s come off of pick and pops with Felton when he draws the defender and kicks it back to him at the top of the key.

I will again reiterate that if Gerald simply fires a few hundred CORNER (no other) 3s a day a la Bruce Bowen that this number will go up and you will see more drive and kick/dish playmaking. When J Rich and Carroll were on the wings, you saw plenty of this leading Felton to drop 10 games and the Bobcats to give Carroll a contract they would later seek to trade.

[spectre]

It's a pet peeve of mine and I don't think he does it nearly enough...esp. with Raja on the court and DJ when he's out there. Eight times out of ten he'll either try and dump it to Mek or Boris...sometimes Crash if he's within 10 ft or so...or take it himself.

Most of those 3 assists are from just passing around the circle or a "slight" dribble penetration and a pass (what I think you're referring to). Not saying those aren't effective, but that's different then what I'm talking about, which is driving it deeper into the paint on a drive and then kicking it out. The shooter gets a much better look as his guy will usually sag in to help.

Those are the type you use at the end of the quarter/game on those iso's running the clock down like we usually run. He did seem to do it a little more with Hammer, but those were the exception rather than the norm.

[110oldeast]

It's a product of the skillssets on the floor. It's true with EVERY player out there. It's why N.O. (who might be rethinking their strategy) always surrounds Paul with MULTIPLE shooters. It's why you will see Rondo flourish more with Allen, House, and Pierce out there when KG isn't available. It's why the Lakers and the Cavs are always trying to surround Kobe and Bron with shooters. It's why Nash was so effective with the multiple shooter lineups of old with Phoenix and less with the traditional ones.

Drive and kick is only HALF about the driver and kicker. The other half is having guys that the defense respect as a kickout option and who will knock it down if they don't. Which again is why I say that Gerald knocking down the corner 3 would be HUGE. It would reduce the help when Felton drives and when they do, the kickout will result in punishing of the defense. With the illegal defense rules as they are it is very systematic that the offense initiator be surrounded with guys who can knock down the open jumper when the opposition helps on them.

It's why Boris is so valuable. The Bobcats had been missing that pick and pop piece for way too long (with May being hurt every year). I would bet easily that 75 to 80% of his 3s came off situations where the defense helped off of him onto Felton which left him open for the kickout.

I think Felton certainly can stand to drive and kick more. But ultimately, it will go unnoticed unless the guys he kicks it to are guys who can and will knock down that kicked out shot. I's a QB/WR relationship. Both parties need the success of the other for their own.

[spectre]

I agree positioning is part of (and has always been a part of) the problem, but a lot I think goes back to trust...reference Bonnell's questions to May a couple years back about why Felton takes a lot upon himself.

End of the game situation is a set play and one they should be training extensively for. Larry Brown is now running this team and Raja is one smart player. I expect more this upcoming season.

[110oldeast]

I hear what you are saying about trust. I am not disagreeing with that point. I think I am just making a different point. My point is that when you only have one guy (Raja) who is a wing threat to knock it down on penetration, then the number of drive and kick 3s you have are not going to be as many as if you have 2 drive and kick threats. That's the sole reason that I am mentioning Gerald's corner 3 point shot. The pick and pop 3s with Boris are of the same variety (draw the defender to get your guy open and kick it to him), but the difference is that Boris can knock down this shot. He's not getting that shot for himself, Felton is getting it for him. However, Boris' skillset of being able to knockdown that shot is what completes it. If Boris can't knock it down, it's just another empty set up.

What we often do is assign playmakers credit for other guys' skillsets (shooting/finishing). A playmaking recipient has to have a skillset in place and then the playmaker has to have the ability to get to the guy in a way that helps him exploit that. It's a give and take relationship. The various pgs in the league who enjoy high assists totals due to being surrounded with shooters don't make the guys around them good shooters. What they do is take advantage of the floor spreading that results from the defense having to extend itself, penetrate and when the defense collapses kick it out to the guy who has good shooting in his skillset.

Felton and Crash have great lob chemistry. Gerald has the skillset of explosive finishing and Felton gets him the ball in a place where he can exploit that. Conversely, I've seen Felton drive and kick it to Gerald for wide open corner 3s on a multitude of situations. Unfortunately, that is not as much of a part of Crash's skillset right now. My point is that if Gerald adds that, it changes the way we are defended, the playmaking results and everything more than simply a shift in mindset. It opens up the lane and when the defense does help, they have to pay as our shooter can knock it down. Felton can't mentally will Gerald's shots into the basket. He can however set him up for open looks and if it is in Crash's skillset, he can take advantage of the set up. That is more a matter of skillsets matching playmaking than it is a matter of playmaking mentality, IMHO.

Does that make sense?

[spectre]

Yeah it does. It is a team sport, and Crash's weakness with the long ball certainly plays a point in this. He really should work on quickly moving the ball to Raja after a kick. The fake/drive he usually does works a lot...but the 3 ball is there.

I like Felton well enough and I saw enough with him learning under LB to offer him a decent contract...I want him back. However, I DO expect him to continue getting better and I assume that he will. Personally I obsess a LOT less about his shooting like most than I do about running the team, finding his mates...TRUSTING his mates and making things easier for them. So long as he continues to improve on that then he's good with me (and I suspect Larry Brown).

[110oldeast]

spectre,

You and I are on the same page. I definitely think Felton has PLENTY of room to grow and improve. I also think that he finally has the right coach and integral piece (pick and pop PF in Diaw) to help facilitate these things. From here, much of it will be on him continuing to work and develop his individual skills while working with his teammates and the coaching staff to help this team and him reach their top respective potentials.

[Slam]

http://www.draftexpress.com/blog/Jonathan-Givony/#NBA-Draft-Roundup-May-24-3227


-Jonny Flynn (http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jonny-Flynn-1245/) appears to be drawing strong interest from the Milwaukee Bucks, as it becomes increasingly clear that they will not be able to retain the services of current point guard Ramon Sessions (http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Ramon-Sessions-466/), due to his excessive contract demands.

That could be bad news for us.

If all of a sudden some idiot team is willing to sign Sessions to a big contract, Felts camp might feel they should be getting more than that.

[spectre]

http://www.draftexpress.com/blog/Jonathan-Givony/#NBA-Draft-Roundup-May-24-3227



That could be bad news for us.

If all of a sudden some idiot team is willing to sign Sessions to a big contract, Felts camp might feel they should be getting more than that.

Thing is Sessions is restricted to around the MLE for the 1st two years of his new contract due to the Arenas rule (think that's right). That's going to have to be one helluva back loaded contract to make it "excessive" IMO. It wouldn't surrprise me if the Bucks weren't just floating this...setting their fans up for losing him.

The more PGs on the market (plus the loaded PG draft) should help us in regards to keeping Felton wouldn't it? I don't think there's a lot of FA money out there this year.

[Slam]

Thing is Sessions is restricted to around the MLE for the 1st two years of his new contract due to the Arenas rule (think that's right). That's going to have to be one helluva back loaded contract to make it "excessive" IMO. It wouldn't surrprise me if the Bucks weren't just floating this...setting their fans up for losing him.

The more PGs on the market (plus the loaded PG draft) should help us in regards to keeping Felton wouldn't it? I don't think there's a lot of FA money out there this year.
So teams can't just open their pocket book to Sessions? I didn't know that. If we lost Felts to someone paying him stupid money then I would totally target Sessions to repalce him because he has to be had on the cheap for the 1st few years.

Here are the PG UFA, RFA and ETO's.

I would have thought the more FA PG's the worse off we'd be because they would dictate market rate. You know, Felts camp catches wind that Jack is signed to a 7 mill a year offer sheet, feels that their guy is better than Jack so he shouldget 9 mill a year.

Know what I mean?
Point Guards

Unrestricted Free Agents


Jason Kidd
Mike Bibby
Andre Miller
Stephon Marbury
Jason Hart
Brevin Knight
Smush Parker
Ronald Murray
Marcus Williams
Jacque Vaughn
Lindsey Hunter
Anthony Carter
Kevin Ollie
Quincy Douby
Mike Wilks
Restricted Free Agents

Ramon Sessions
Raymond Felton
Nate Robinson
Luther Head
Jarrett Jack
Early-Termination Options

Eddie House
Tyronn Lue
Anthony Johnson
Travis Diener
Chris Quinn
Bobby Brown

[spectre]

Yeah, from everything I've read he's limited for at least the first year and I'm pretty sure the 2nd as well.

To get an average salary of 8 million over 5 years we're talking:

5.8...5.8...9.5...9.5...9.5

In year 3 let's all say hellooooo Kurt Hinrich!

I'm just thinking with only 3 or 4 teams or so being under the cap and one of them with a high pick it'll be slim pickings for any FA who wants anything over the MLE. Those guys (and Felton's right there) will basically just get a choice of who they want to play with.

MY worry has always been that we disrespect him (try and take advantage of him wanting to be here by lowballing him), he takes the QO and then he's an FA when everyone besides us has money. FWIW I don't think that'll happen.

[Slam]

Yeah, from everything I've read he's limited for at least the first year and I'm pretty sure the 2nd as well.

To get an average salary of 8 million over 5 years we're talking:

5.8...5.8...9.5...9.5...9.5.
Wow! I never knew that!! I thought the increments from year to year had to be by a certain percentage. I didn't know they could almost double like that?

MY worry has always been that we disrespect him (try and take advantage of him wanting to be here by lowballing him), he takes the QO and then he's an FA when everyone besides us has money. FWIW I don't think that'll happen.
It's one of those situations that I wish there wasn't all of the added people involved clouding the water. Get rid of the Bobcats lawyers and Felts agent. Just have MJ take Felts out for a game of golf and between the 9th green and the 10th tee, work out a price and length both are happy with.

[teej]

Wow! I never knew that!! I thought the increments from year to year had to be by a certain percentage. I didn't know they could almost double like that?

It's one of those situations that I wish there wasn't all of the added people involved clouding the water. Get rid of the Bobcats lawyers and Felts agent. Just have MJ take Felts out for a game of golf and between the 9th green and the 10th tee, work out a price and length both are happy with.

This is what people need a VP of Common Sense for (and some teams actually do). Before you make any big decision, float it by the VP of Common Sense and make sure it makes sense. Sure would've helped the Mavs when negotiating Gana's contact, or us with Carroll's. But before they offer Ray a deal, make sure it makes sense. Or like Slam said, have MJ and Ray go golfing and strike a deal. But make sure it isn't on a gamble...MJ might give Ray the max contact :rolleyes:

[BETCATS]

I havent said much about this topic, but since we are talking about people that could replace Raymond, i think Ramon Sessions is the best pick. This guy will be a star pretty soon, i have no idea why the team that resides in Milwaukee (Da Bucks) doesnt use him. Great court vision, great passer/playmaker, great scorer, solid defender, hard worker. All the makings of a classic Larry Brown player. I would actually prefer him to Raymond, but this might be because Ramon is my favorite player in the NBA, and has been ever since he had a 20+ points 20+assist game in his rookie season, as a undrafted d-leaguer.

[ohara831]

ON Hollinger's Chat on ESPN, was asked which FA's would get above the MLE. He said Boozer, Gordon, Milsap. Lee, Sessions and Ariza. Maybe's to Charlie V. and Odom. No mention of Ray.

[Slam]

ON Hollinger's Chat on ESPN, was asked which FA's would get above the MLE. He said Boozer, Gordon, Milsap. Lee, Sessions and Ariza. Maybe's to Charlie V. and Odom. No mention of Ray.

God lord. If we got Felts for under the MLE I would be over the freaking moon!

[spectre]

Felton hopes to stay in Charlotte (http://www.scnow.com/scp/sports/other/article/felton_hopes_to_stay_in_charlotte/60627/)


“Of course I want to stay in Charlotte. It’s close to home, close to UNC,” Felton said Thursday as his four-day basketball camp wrapped at Mullins High School. “I want to be there, but we got to reach an agreement with some things.

“It’s just one of the things where it is a business for them and it is a business for me.”

The Bobcats extended Felton a one-year qualifying offer of $5.5 million last week if the two parties can’t reach a long-term deal.
By doing that, Charlotte also can match any offer he might receive in free agency.

Felton said several teams have expressed interest, and he is definitely willing to see what else is out there.

“I want to go wherever they want me,” Felton said.

Hopefully not THAT much interest. I have no doubt we'd match a MLE deal, but if someone like Dallas offered a S&T and wanted to ink him for 8 per then we could have a problem.

Guess at worst we could get Stackhouse and save some bucks.

[ohara831]

5 yr at 5.5 mil/yr would be great. Top it at $6 mil

[spectre]

5 yr at 5.5 mil/yr would be great. Top it at $6 mil

Top it at 6? Good luck with that.

Felton's last season isn't a whole lot different from Nelson season before last (Nelson shot better, around 46% but much less of a distributor/all around player) and they gave him 7.6 per over 6 years.

I'd rather not go over 3 years tho.

[jpf_v2.0]

I'd be fine with that salary figure (7.6 per) but I don't want to go anything longer than 3 years, 4 at the absolute max and that's if the 4th year is a team option.

[ohara831]

I think given the down economy, teams needing to be tight with the wallet, and there only being a few teams with much cap room, Felton wont get anyone else to go over $6 mil/yr. If they did, then I'd let him go. Let DJ start, and then have a good amount of money to play with in 2010.

[SWedd523]

I think given the down economy, teams needing to be tight with the wallet, and there only being a few teams with much cap room, Felton wont get anyone else to go over $6 mil/yr. If they did, then I'd let him go. Let DJ start, and then have a good amount of money to play with in 2010.
Sure makes drafting Jrue make sense if we want to get rid of Ray because he wants too much money...... ;)








Okay I'll stop!

[Slam]

Sure makes drafting Jrue make sense if we want to get rid of Ray because he wants too much money...... ;)
We can just draft Walker, Shved or Vasquez next year!!

[SWedd523]

We can just draft Walker, Shved or Vasquez next year!!
Kemba? Walker = yes
Greivis? Vasquez = hell yes

Shved = ??? I dunno him

[ohara831]

But I think we can get the lower per year rate if we increase the Contract to 5 years. Some people talk about $8 mil/yr for 3 years. That only guarantees him $24 mil. If we can get him at say $6 mil/yr or $6.25/yr but for 5 years, then he knows he's getting paid at least $30 - $32.25 mil. That can go a long way in getting someone signed when he is only a serious knee injury away from being out of the NBA. I want something that works for him and for the team.

[SWedd523]

But I think we can get the lower per year rate if we increase the Contract to 5 years. Some people talk about $8 mil/yr for 3 years. That only guarantees him $24 mil. If we can get him at say $6 mil/yr or $6.25/yr but for 5 years, then he knows he's getting paid at least $30 - $32.25 mil. That can go a long way in getting someone signed when he is only a serious knee injury away from being out of the NBA. I want something that works for him and for the team.
I honestly would rather pay him more for a shorter period of time. Are we really going to have DJ play backup for 6 more years?

And shorter contracts are more appealing contracts in the trade market. I would like to keep our options open

[spectre]

I honestly would rather pay him more for a shorter period of time. Are we really going to have DJ play backup for 6 more years?

And shorter contracts are more appealing contracts in the trade market. I would like to keep our options open

Exactly.

Besides, like I mentioned on RGM We're 2nd in the league in opponent's PER at the PG position. Just because Felton is weak on 3 pt % doesn't mean he isn't a huge help to the team. When you look at guys like Watson and Ridnour getting the full MLE there has to be some perspective in regards to worth.

[Dead_Real]

I can't blame him for looking at all his options lets just hope we offer him a fair contract and he's not tempted by more money/playoff team like Dallas.

[110oldeast]

Exactly. The 3 pt shot is something he needs to work on, but to act as though he hasn't been effective and valuable to this team regardless would be misguided.



Exactly.

Besides, like I mentioned on RGM We're 2nd in the league in opponent's PER at the PG position. Just because Felton is weak on 3 pt % doesn't mean he isn't a huge help to the team. When you look at guys like Watson and Ridnour getting the full MLE there has to be some perspective in regards to worth.

[BRNC]

I don't expect the Mavs (but they might) resign Kidd...I think he (Kidd) has the greener pastures syndrome...but even if he does..I think many people are going to be stunned with what they offer Ray...they want him and you know Cuban likes to throw his money...I think if we have to bid against the Mavs Ray will be hard to keep...

[teej]

I don't expect the Mavs (but they might) resign Kidd...I think he (Kidd) has the greener pastures syndrome...but even if he does..I think many people are going to be stunned with what they offer Ray...they want him and you know Cuban likes to throw his money...I think if we have to bid against the Mavs Ray will be hard to keep...

But even with Kidd gone they still can't offer much over 8 can they?

[Ghost Kat]

I thought Raymond really wanted to stay in Charlotte. If he wanted to be here with this team so bad I don't think someone offering more moeny should be a problem. It's been stated numerous times by others that Felton isn't about the money. I guess we'll see how true that is.

[teej]

I thought Raymond really wanted to stay in Charlotte. If he wanted to be here with this team so bad I don't think someone offering more moeny should be a problem. It's been stated numerous times by others that Felton isn't about the money. I guess we'll see how true that is.

He's just trying to get MJ to pay him more.

[jpf_v2.0]

The Mavs are around 15 mill over the projected cap for next year, so barring them trying to lure him through a sign & trade all they have is the exceptions.

[dnbman]

It's been stated numerous times by others that Felton isn't about the money. I guess we'll see how true that is.

These are the problems I see with the "hometown discount."

1. Every pro knows that they can be traded on any given season. The "hometown discount" suddenly turns into "I turned down $10M to live in Minnesota?"

2. These numbers mean real buying power to these guys; they're not just a couple of digits difference like many of us see them on internet articles. $5M could be the difference between this guy retiring after he leaves the NBA or having to sell cars (Big ups, O'bannon! Been wondering where you been!) after his NBA career.

I think the "isn't about the money" applies if you're talking a million or less difference per year, a few million dollars over the contract, especially if a team is offering 7.5M over 5 years and your current team is offering 6-7M over 3 years. You're talking a $14M dollar difference. That would be an AWFULLY big hometown discount, one I don't think we should expect.

[BRNC]

But even with Kidd gone they still can't offer much over 8 can they?

teej...it's the Mavs...they can offer the MLE (first year) and back-load the heck out of a contract that would kill us...and it is the kinda thing I would not put pass Cuban...particularly if Kidd walks...

[jpf_v2.0]

The most they can give is an 8% increase each year with a MLE offer...or am I missing something?

[BRNC]

I'll check quick jpf...

[jpf_v2.0]

I'm pretty positive it is.

That's why every full MLE deal that is signed each year looks exactly alike (Vlad & Nazr's deals for instance).

[BRNC]

you're correct...looks like 8%...so the Mavs would have to go luxury tax (do they care) or sign and trade...they have 21 million coming off (Kidd contract)...they were at 92 million (well into luxury tax)...so I guess Cuban will offer whatever he wants (if they want Ray) and see if we match...

addition:...looks like they have about another 20 million coming off next year...it is hard to say what Cuban will do but he wanted Ray at the trade dead line last year..but someone (better with the cap) would have to tell us how much they could do a "back-loaded" contract...

[dnbman]

you're correct...looks like 8%...so the Mavs would have to go luxury tax (do they care) or sign and trade...they have 21 million coming off (Kidd contract)...they were at 92 million (well into luxury tax)...so I guess Cuban will offer whatever he wants (if they want Ray) and see if we match...

addition:...looks like they have about another 20 million coming off next year...it is hard to say what Cuban will do but he wanted Ray at the trade dead line last year..but someone (better with the cap) would have to tell us how much they could do a "back-loaded" contract...

No, you can't backload like that.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q46

The one exception is the Gilbert Arenas rule, which only applies to players with one or two years in the league. (generally, second round picks, since all first round picks have a three year contract.)

[jpf_v2.0]

That's what I was saying. You can't backload MLE contracts that way, it's a flat 8% annual increase for them.

[Ghost Kat]

Felton is a good player, but I'm not sure this team needs to tie itself down to him long term. Just like the Panther's did with Delhomme. Maybe a two or three year deal but nothing longer then that.

[teej]

Felton is a good player, but I'm not sure this team needs to tie itself down to him long term. Just like the Panther's did with Delhomme. Maybe a two or three year deal but nothing longer then that.

More than two, I'm thinking a three year deal with a team option for four, but if he plays well in that he can get a long term deal like Crash did.

[110oldeast]

Exactly the way I would play it.


More than two, I'm thinking a three year deal with a team option for four, but if he plays well in that he can get a long term deal like Crash did.

[davcbow]

More than two, I'm thinking a three year deal with a team option for four, but if he plays well in that he can get a long term deal like Crash did.


I agree with teej here....:cool:

[jpf_v2.0]

More than two, I'm thinking a three year deal with a team option for four, but if he plays well in that he can get a long term deal like Crash did.

Hmm, that sounds familiar...


I'd be fine with that salary figure (7.6 per) but I don't want to go anything longer than 3 years, 4 at the absolute max and that's if the 4th year is a team option.

[teej]

Hmm, that sounds familiar...

Haha i didn't even know you said that. But great minds think alike, eh?

[jpf_v2.0]

Haha i didn't even know you said that. But great minds think alike, eh?

That's what they say! :biggrin:

[ohara831]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/rumors/post/Mavs-owner-Cuban-confirms-he-will-make-offer-to?urn=nba,174032

Good for us if he does. That takes away a competitor for Ray and makes it more likely the money is lower to keep him.

[teej]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/rumors/post/Mavs-owner-Cuban-confirms-he-will-make-offer-to?urn=nba,174032

Good for us if he does. That takes away a competitor for Ray and makes it more likely the money is lower to keep him.

I hope they sign Kidd, it's a good fit for them and Dallas is Ray's beiggest suitor outside the Queen City.

[spectre]

As I said on your duplicate post on RGM...not really. They wanted Felton last year when they had Kidd too. Just like most teams they'd like to have more than one legit PG on their roster.

[teej]

As I said on your duplicate post on RGM...not really. They wanted Felton last year when they had Kidd too. Just like most teams they'd like to have more than one legit PG on their roster.

Felton won't sign to be a backup. Esp. with Terry as the 6th man.

[spectre]

If they're offering 8-9 and everyone else is offering the MLE I bet he would. Kidd isn't going to last forever.

[teej]

If they're offering 8-9 and everyone else is offering the MLE I bet he would. Kidd isn't going to last forever.

How can they offer 8-9 with Kidd?

[spectre]

How can they offer 8-9 with Kidd?

Easy...S&T Felton for Stackhouse/Wright. They'd be re-signing Kidd with Bird Rights.

[spectre]

Felton's agent focused on Bobcats (http://blogs.charlotte.com/inside_the_nba/2009/07/feltons-agent-focused-on-bobcats.html)

Say what you will about Felton, but you seldom see this type of loyalty from an NBA player who has other suitors...which according to Bonnell:


Bradbury said several other NBA teams have inquired about Felton, but he's focused on completing a deal with Charlotte.

[TheBeagle]

Felton's agent focused on Bobcats (http://blogs.charlotte.com/inside_the_nba/2009/07/feltons-agent-focused-on-bobcats.html)

Say what you will about Felton, but you seldom see this type of loyalty from an NBA player who has other suitors...which according to Bonnell:
And that's why, throwing any Tarheel ties out the window, I can never hate on Raymond. Yes, I'll get frustrated as all hell for his stupid unforced TOs he's known for, and I've posted as much many times in game breakdowns, but the dude is a rock, he's genuine, he not only acts like he gives a shit about helping kids, he does, plus he has always wanted to play his entire career here in Charlotte. Where every other player in the league (besides Gerald) spurns us, Raymond loves us, and for that he should be either pitied (;)) or loved in return....or both.

Hopefully we can get this thing knocked out soon.