Who do you want at PG?

[jazzer89]

Pretty debated topic around the site, there probably is a thread about this but i couldnt find one. So who do you want moving forward. I personally see no reason why Augustin cant step in and start. We can save ourselves some money and let felton walk, may too while were at it.
I really like Augustin (even though i want curry) and i think he has the tools to be a great starting PG. He can continue to work on defense, that will improve in time.

Draft a future SG and we are set to make the playoffs.

Thoughts...

[spectre]

Are you the same "jaz" poster at "Rufus on Fire"?

[jazzer89]

yes thats me

why?

[spectre]

The posting seemed similiar.

Nice to see you over here.

[dnbman]

Is there a "whoever does best in the preseason" option?

[dav7z]

Til DJ can defend Felts has to be our starter.

[jazzer89]

really, you wouldnt sacrifice a little defense for a much better offensive weapon. We were dead last in that category werent we?

i dont know, the one thing everyone has overlooked concerning DJ's defense is that he never started with the core of bell, wallace, diaw, and okafor. i feel they could somewhat make up for his "inability"

there was a guy on the "Is DJ our future?" article that said it best. His name is roy, maybe one of you guys is him but he said:
"The fact that you can debate who is better, Raymond or DJ doesn’t say much for Raymond. DJ is a rookie, so there are going to be growing pains. Raymond has been in the league long enough to shoot better than 39%. I’m sorry, but this team not good enough to have a PG who is such an offensive liability."

He was only a rookie, was felton such a good defender his rookie season??? I dont think so thats why he wasnt starting right away. Look there is no doubt Augustin is lightyears ahead of felton on the scoring part. Felton can probably pass a little better and he defends better, but he has had 4 years to do that. in 4 years you dont think Augustin will be a better PG than Felton is now in his career?

I say let Augustin start, use the money use save on felton to go add a couple of role players like Atlanta did and we got a great team going into next season. Letting DJ start also allows his development to speed up.

[ziggy]

DJ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFAhwS-NeNo

Admittedly he has some room for improvement on the defensive side of the ball, but anybody that can shoot the ball like he can needs to be getting significant minutes in the lineup.

my 2 cents.

By the way, Welcome to BCP jazzer89

[jazzer89]

Thanks ziggy, i appreciate the welcome. and for sticking up for DJ

[Dead_Real]

Is there a "whoever does best in the preseason" option?
I pretty much agree

Just one thing I want to comment on is the whole "Rookie player vs a 4 year vet" comments I see when I read any debate about this very topic from guys that continue to sleep on Felton and praise DJ14. IMHO it's pretty much irrelevant DJ showed signs no doubt but Felts was clearly one of our better players ALL year. Only to be outplayed by Diaw pre J-Rich trade so I don't see what you all are basing it on. If DJ as a sophomore becomes CP3 v2 outstanding but at the moment it's Feltons job until DJ becomes a significantly better team leader and not just a better scorer.

[ohara831]

I want DJ because I think his ceiling is much higher. But I would not just give it to him. He has to prove he can beat out Ray. But the question is who do we want, not who do we think should start 09 at the PG.

[spectre]

I want DJ because I think his ceiling is much higher. But I would not just give it to him. He has to prove he can beat out Ray. But the question is who do we want, not who do we think should start 09 at the PG.

You're right with the title, but the OP said:


So who do you want moving forward. I personally see no reason why Augustin cant step in and start.

which made it an opening day thing. I don't agree with that; DJ has a high ceiling, but at the end of this past season he still had a lot of things to work on...not dribbling into double teams, learning to stop the dribble penetration, work more on getting thru screens and in general leading the team.

Unless he makes a huge improvement, right now Felton is better for the team's success. DJ's shooting is indeed needed, but as I've pointed out in another thread Felton had a slightly better 2 pt %...so we're talking 3 ball only. Just as Felton needs to work on his long ball DJ really needs to work on his midrange/inside game.

If it's like you said Ohara then I personally don't care. If DJ beats him out then by all means start him and move Felton for another need.

[jazzer89]

You might be right spectre, this team could be better with felton at the helm at the start of the season. You also mention DJ's ceiling, and i believe that how successful this team is next season will rest on how high DJ can get on the road to reaching his ceiling. I think we know where felton can take us , he can get us a 35-40 win season along with a 7-8th seed in the playoffs.

But in my opinion DJ could take us farther if he gets somewhat close to the ceiling we all invison for him. I think the quickest way for DJ to reach his full potential would be to start for the Charlotte Bobcats.

[spectre]

I think Boris will be the deciding factor on how well we do next season, along with an injury free Raja. IMO they are what makes this team tick...not the PGs or individuals in general.

LB's building a TEAM.


I think the quickest way for DJ to reach his full potential would be to start for the Charlotte Bobcats.

2 or 3 years ago that'd be applicable, but bringing in LB put us in more of a "win now" situation. We certainly want to develop all our players and LB's been doing that, but it shouldn't come at the cost of our main goal.

[Ghost Kat]

Go ahead and let Felton start. Just bring in a SG so there's no more DJ/Felton back court. DJ couldn't reach his full potential with Felton on the court with him. Felton can't shot so DJ was really the scoring guard. I see alot of complaints about DJ defense in his rookie year. As far as i know most PG aren't lock down guards. Tony Parker isn't know for his defense and I don't think Derrick Rose is either. DJ wasn't that bad. I like DJ , He plays calm, doesn't turn the ball over alot while trying to make plays.
( Like Diaw )

I think DJ will shine a little more this year. All he needs is for us to draft or pick up a SG so Felton doesn't have to play beside him anymore. T. Williams would be a great pick up. He can pass and get into the lane which should leave DJ open for the three.

[teej]

Go ahead and let Felton start. Just bring in a SG so there's no more DJ/Felton back court. DJ couldn't reach his full potential with Felton on the court with him. Felton can't shot so DJ was really the scoring guard. I see alot of complaints about DJ defense in his rookie year. As far as i know most PG aren't lock down guards. Tony Parker isn't know for his defense and I don't think Derrick Rose is either. DJ wasn't that bad. I like DJ , He plays calm, doesn't turn the ball over alot while trying to make plays.
( Like Diaw )

I think DJ will shine a little more this year. All he needs is for us to draft or pick up a SG so Felton doesn't have to play beside him anymore. T. Williams would be a great pick up. He can pass and get into the lane which should leave DJ open for the three.

In Larry Brown's system, the players either have to play defense, or have some amazing skill to offset their lack of defense. Until DJ gets his D down or drains a top 5 percent in the league number of 3's night in and out, he isn't going to start. And as much as Ray is a "veteran", he pretty much has only played the point 2 years. So he could very well see just as much improvement as DJ, and there's more than a few guys who just took a while to find their shot. The one Ray is being compared to is Chauncey Billups, with the notable exception that Ray shows up in big games. If Ray is close to that, then he'll be a starter in this league for years to come, and DJ is an easily found commodity at this point, a 3 point shooter. Just look at Kyle Korver or our old bud Matty C. Right now DJ is nothing truly special. He could be, but not yet. And his height might be an issue at some point.

I'm not saying DJ isn't good, and I know some of you must think i hate DJ by now, but I really don't, but you can get DJ multiple places, he hasn't shown anything hard to find. DJ has a 3 ball, speed, a nice layup that he doesn't use, and a great FT pct. Ray has shown leadership, D, willingness to be "the guy", ability to drive, a floater, stength, some vision, and a decent shooting percentage (to be improved FOR SURE if he wants to be a mainstay). He is much harder to find, but still replaceable. There is a smaller version of Ray and really a hybrid of both DJ and Ray in Ty Lawsom, but I'm the only one who seems to think that...

[Slam]

I didn't exepct it to be this close.

[TheBeagle]

Raymond for many of the reasons already stated. Plus, it's good to have DJ's firepower coming off the bench to spark the team, if the backcourt is having an off night, especially.

Of course, it's like dnb says, whoever wins the job during camp/preseason is who I want, but 'til then, I go with Raymond.

Then again, I may have forgotten the actual question....

If it's a who starts/who subs question, which is what I assumed, Raymond is my answer.

If it's a "one or the other" question in terms of who the team should keep or let go, I'll go with DJ. As much as I love Raymond for being a credit to The University ;), the community, a model citizen, and a true pro, DJ just has that "it" that makes me think he'll be something special.

[110oldeast]

Felton holding us back offensively is very overrated by some, IMO. But then, I said that our roster was flawed in the past when folks said that the pg alone was the issue (before LB came in and said the roster was flawed and made serious changes). Looking at LB's list of previous pgs, Felton is on par offensively with all of them at the time LB coached them. It's just that DJ's scoring potential has led many to play up how poor Felton is offensively. And for the talk of defense not being that big of a point at the pg spot, again, LB's list of pgs fly in direct contrast to this.

Felton certainly can stand to work on the long distance shot, in the same way Gerald can work on the corner 3, Raja can work on being the consistent shooter on the floor providing scoring punch at the 2g, Mek can work on post moves and providing consistent easy baskets, and Boris can work on finishing strong consistently (without losing his creativity). I don't think that plugging DJ in and playing at LB's pace is going to catapult us to the top of the offensive standings without any other development.

Rod Strickland, Mark Jackson, Eric Snow, and Chauncey Billups were LB's last set of NBA pgs. Prolific scoring with defense as a secondary priority doesn't exactly characterize their time as pgs with Brown.

As to their development stages, Felton as a rookie had as strong a campaign as DJ, netting 3 rookie of the month awards, only second to Chris Paul (who many Bobcats fans will chase until their death). As far as him being a "veteran," him playing with his 3rd coach in 4 years with this being the first year he got CONSISTENT PG coaching and minutes shakes up the argument of Felton being done developing with DJ being at the beginning of his development.

I think both players have their share of strengths and enjoy watching them play. I would like to see Felton continue to develop under a true pg coach in LB and with a pick and pop option in Diaw, 2 factors that weren't here in his previous 3 years. That said, I think that many folks have made their minds up on him and that landing in a fresh place like Portland could be a good long-term option for him. I also think that DJ has a good support base to grow under as the new marketable face. I would like to see both players be able to be here with DJ adding depth to and solidifying the pg spot. But whatever LB thinks he can win with most is what works for me.

[Ghost Kat]

As usual I have to disagree about Felton. We all sat here and complained about Felton and how many open shots he missed. He may have scored 14 a game and scored some big shots throughout the year. But he missed ALOT of easy shots too. I'm sure as long as this site has been here someone has been on here complaining about Felton missing shots.

DJ and Felton played their first year under the LB bootcamp system. Even though Felton already 4 yrs under his belt lets just say this is his first year too. DJ in half the minutes that Felton played scored 3 less pts a game, 3 less assists, 1 less steal, 2 less rebounds, and somewhere close to one less turn over a game. DJ also shot better from the field, 3pt, and FT line. Far as defense goes, DJ has one year of NBA game play. This is his first time ever guarding these type of players. He already said in his season ending interview he planned to get stronger in his legs and work on his defense. He also said his stomach never really healed and that affected his side to side sliding defense.

I forgot too what the orginal question was, If it's who starts game one of 2009. Felton. But I think this will be another year of half of BCP saying DJ needs to be starting. When DJ has started he has produced good numbers in every game. It's really all up to DJ. It's not Feltons job to lose,He already been replaced. DJ just needs to prove he can handle it. Felton has been in the league 4 yrs. Good coaching or not, and some ROOKIE in half the minutes averages close to what this Vet. produces.

:g:

[jpf_v2.0]

DJ in half the minutes that Felton played scored 3 less pts a game, 3 less assists, 1 less steal, 2 less rebounds, and somewhere close to one less turn over a game.

Half the minutes? No, Ray averaged 37.6 mpg while DJ averaged 26.5 mpg.

I'm not saying I disagree with your point, but let's not exaggerate the facts to make our point.

[Ghost Kat]

Half the minutes? No, Ray averaged 37.6 mpg while DJ averaged 26.5 mpg.

I'm not saying I disagree with your point, but let's not exaggerate the facts to make our point.


Your right, I did push my facts to the breaking point.

[spectre]

No decision yet on May qualifier (http://blogs.charlotte.com/inside_the_nba/2009/06/no-decision-yet-on-may-qualifier.html)


It's a foregone conclusion the Bobcats will make point guard Raymond Felton a qualifying offer, (one year, $5.5 million)

I felt pretty sure about this, but as this supposedly come from Higgins I guess it's confirmed.

So much for the "just let him walk" camp.

[jpf_v2.0]

I don't buy Bonnell's logic on May (saying he'd wait until after the draft to decide), it's not like they can even count on May to show up at a weight that LB will play him at.

I say don't make a qualifying offer and keep the 3.68 mill. Worse come to worse you can always try to sign him as a free agent after the moratorium ends if needed. It's hard to imagine many teams being interested in him.

[spectre]

The more I've thought about the more it just doesn't make sense to give him the QO. It's not like we could trade him...as JPF mentioned no one would want him and on top of that May would have to approve of the trade. I can't imagine May would sign a deal making less than the QO if he's getting that regardless...so I'm failing to see any upside in doing it.

Let him go to FA and offer something minimal for a year or two. If he refuses it and gets a better offer somewhere else then so be it. Just like with Ammo sometimes its better just to cut your loss.

[Black]

Felton should be our point guard. If he improves his shooting, he has the potential to be a second tier point guard capable of putting up 17ppg, 8apg, and 5rpg.

[spectre]

Welcome to the board Black1605!

[Black]

Thanks! Been reading posts here for a little while now, figured it was about time I started posting. Bobcats fan from the start, glad to see a board specifically about them. I have been posting at a few other boards with sub-forums devoted to the Cats, but this place seems to be a lot more active.

I look forward to contributing!

[teej]

Thanks! Been reading posts here for a little while now, figured it was about time I started posting. Bobcats fan from the start, glad to see a board specifically about them. I have been posting at a few other boards with sub-forums devoted to the Cats, but this place seems to be a lot more active.

I look forward to contributing!

Welcome, here's to hoping you post often!

And maybe you'll join me in keeping those game threads alive. But that's a different story

Anyways, May doesn't deserve anything over the minimum, and I can't see any scenario where Bobby J, who's cutting costs, authorizes 3.68 million for a bench decoration.

[jpf_v2.0]

3.68 million for a bench decoration.

That may be the best analogy of May I've seen. :g:

+1

[GoBobs]

DJ is a very nice player but I don't feel the we can count on him for 40 min a game over an 80 game season yet. Felton was one of the best players on the team last year, LB likes him a lot and he is not going anywhere. Plus Felton has proven he can guard the 2 if need be which is handy when you have an injury prone 2 guard (raja) and not a lot of depth behind him.

On May, if I were making the decision it would depend a lot on what kind of shape he shows up in. If it seems to be the same old stuff cut him but, if he shows up in good shape he is worth the risk.

[Ghost Kat]

Quote:
It's a foregone conclusion the Bobcats will make point guard Raymond Felton a qualifying offer, (one year, $5.5 million)


If we are only making a 1yr offer to Raymond that doesn't say alot about his furture does it? Is that just to save money or just one more year of insurence on DJ?

[teej]

Quote:
It's a foregone conclusion the Bobcats will make point guard Raymond Felton a qualifying offer, (one year, $5.5 million)


If we are only making a 1yr offer to Raymond that doesn't say alot about his furture does it? Is that just to save money or just one more year of insurence on DJ?

We can still sign him to a long term deal after that, it's just insurance I think.

[ohara831]

If we dont offer the QO by June 30, he can walk. This just basically is what we have to do first. We can still negotiate a long term deal.

[spectre]

Y'know, if we were really wanting to shed salary like Sam Smith said when he threw out that we were going to "gift" Mek...why wouldn't we just let both Felton & May walk? That's around 9 million guaranteed.

I figure we won't offer it to May, but still...this would be an easy way to lose 5.5 million bucks without taking anything back.

Short answer...Smith is still full of it.

[dav7z]

Quote:
It's a foregone conclusion the Bobcats will make point guard Raymond Felton a qualifying offer, (one year, $5.5 million)


If we are only making a 1yr offer to Raymond that doesn't say alot about his furture does it? Is that just to save money or just one more year of insurence on DJ?

That means absouute nothing except we intend to keep Felton .
Wallace, Mek was done the same way . We extend the quilifying offer then come up with a contract because of the 6/30/ deadline . Felton and the team then gets a good idea of his value whitch could last all summer. Like Wallace and Mek. Im sure we keep him but for as little as possable.
If we do keep Felton whitch i think we do because i don't think any team is going to make a big offer. DJ will either have to be satified as a back up guard or be traded to another team to hope for a starting gig. .Things are looking as if Felton will be our starting point for the next six years.................
May, i read we not offering the 3 million. But instrested in signing him after the deadline at around 1 milion a year for 2 years

[Ghost Kat]

If DJ turn's out not to be the redemption for the missed Chris Paul draft pick then He's still a outstanding back up on a rookie contract. But I seriously doubt that after the next 2 or 3 yrs under LB Augustin will still be doing the same things ya'll are complaining about now. The stats show over the season DJ hasn't been as bad as the image portrayed by some.

[SWedd523]

If DJ turn's out not to be the redemption for the missed Chris Paul draft pick then He's still a outstanding back up on a rookie contract. But I seriously doubt that after the next 2 or 3 yrs under LB Augustin will still be doing the same things ya'll are complaining about now. The stats show over the season DJ hasn't been as bad as the image portrayed by some.

I don't think anybody hates him, we just don't think he's ready for the big time yet. I want him to stay in a relatively pressure free position behind Ray so he can develop into what we all want him to be.

[Slam]

I don't think anybody hates him, we just don't think he's ready for the big time yet. I want him to stay in a relatively pressure free position behind Ray so he can develop into what we all want him to be.
Ray was protected from the pressure. How did that work out for him?

[SWedd523]

Ray was protected from the pressure. How did that work out for him?

I'd say pretty damn good considering the coaching carousel he had to deal with. I would hardly call him protected though with BK and McLoser as the other options.

[spectre]

Different situations...though this did make me think of another direction (yeah, YET another!) we should have gone in Year 3 or even Year 2. As much as I liked getting one of the 3 up and coming PGs we really should have moved Felton after his rookie year and traded for a legit PG. We wouldn't have gotten a 1st tier but someone like Billups I would think. Felton had won 3 ROM and he had some good value; him with a crap player would probably have gotten it done. Year 3 would have been our 1st year of full cap.

With Bernie and then the Idiot this franchise really needed a PG that could run the team. Yeah, we should have hired a Del Harris as coach...but right now I'm on this direction. :p

The weakass fanbase needed us to win, and tho it's nice to build young talent we couldn't really afford to wait it out like OKC can.

If we'd went in that direction then selecting DJ would have been perfect; the team would be used to playing like a team and he could have stepped right in.

Don't even mention BK. He was not a good PG but someone you "get by" with. If he's starting then your team is crap.

[110oldeast]

I wouldn't call what happened with Felton with protection. That was a clusterscrew. DJ has already been protected from that.

There is a difference between being a rookie backup coached by one of the best pg coaches in the world with competent offensive frontcourt options and being jerked extensively between the 2 guard and pt guard and being mislabeled as a combo by 2 coaches without a clear offensive philosophy waiting on Sean May to get healthy.

Furthermore, Felton stepped in in the times when the guy ahead of him was hurt and helped lead the team to longer win streaks then the team had, many of them coming without other primary starters. He closed out the year with everyone (including Bonnell the biggest BK supporter) under the impression he would be the starter the following year only to have Bernie's loyalty to BK win out and send Felton back to the 2 guard.

Their situations they came into, coaching wise, personnel wise, and overall are apples to oranges, IMHO.


Ray was protected from the pressure. How did that work out for him?

[Felton for Prez]

I am shocked that Felton is winning 2/3rds to 1/3rd. Flat out shocked.

If they don't bring in a 2 guard, the argument is almost moot. DJ will still end up playing lots of mins w/ Ray.

[Ghost Kat]

I am shocked that Felton is winning 2/3rds to 1/3rd. Flat out shocked.

If they don't bring in a 2 guard, the argument is almost moot. DJ will still end up playing lots of mins w/ Ray.

I have to agree with this 100% and I truely hate the idea of Felton playing SG. It only hurts both players. When Felton and DJ play..DJ is a PG thats really out there to hit open jumpers and score points......Felton is a SG who creates for others and gets into the lane. Seriously they BOTH need a SG in there to keep them from playing out of postion. If we can back up and keep healthy the SG spot, Felton and DJ should have better yrs.

[etothet]

I have to agree with this 100% and I truely hate the idea of Felton playing SG. It only hurts both players. When Felton and DJ play..DJ is a PG thats really out there to hit open jumpers and score points......Felton is a SG who creates for others and gets into the lane. Seriously they BOTH need a SG in there to keep them from playing out of postion. If we can back up and keep healthy the SG spot, Felton and DJ should have better yrs.
Thought this might be interesting.

http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/398203-nba-offseason-dallas-mavericks

[Ghost Kat]

Thought this might be interesting.

http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/398203-nba-offseason-dallas-mavericks

Would this mean the Cats get Jeson Kidd? If the Cats draft T. Will I can't wait for those fast breaks. Kidd is an upgrade on Felton as far as yrs in the league and playmaking. But He can't shoot just like Felton.

[BRNC]

The Dallas fans have decided (I guess just because they can) that we are going to gift Ray and send him right over to them...why...well because they are Dallas...

I don't think you will ever see Kidd here...he wants a chance to get a ring and wants to go to the Cavs last I heard...but here..not happening...

[docend24]

Two funny things:

1) the article suggest Felton-Knight reunion

2) they have Hollins higher than Gray on their depth chart - that's telling how they value their current players