View Full Version : For you Felton haters
If Sorenson can convert, anyone but Kat can...
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/tomsorensen/story/983843.html
davcbow
10-06-2009, 12:27 AM
Im not a Felton hater, I just dont like him shooting at the end of the game or being the go to guy...:cool:
Ghost Kat
10-06-2009, 03:08 AM
CarolinaKat (http://www.bobcatsplanet.com/vb/member.php?u=1059) say's "Start DJ "
"There's an ease to Augustin's game that Felton will never have."
My favorite line of the article
When did the Bobcats become your team?
Felton : “Last year,” he says. “I'm the point guard and the leader. So I took that role. And I'm going to keep it.”
Oh Really? Last year? None of the yrs before, Just last year? Why? Maybe since they drafted your replacement, You feel the need to, Well it doesn't matter he'll still get replaced
Felton :facepalm:
WarioVsMooChicken
10-06-2009, 05:24 AM
or maybe because last year was his first year as starting PG?
CarolinaKat did just spin that in his favor big time. :D
But in all seriousness, Felton has responded well to Larry Brown, and is very outspoken about his desire to be here and help this team succeed, plus he plays very hard. You've gotta at least like that.
...and as much as I like DJs offensive game he will never be able to defend like Ray...and Ray can be taught to stop taking "stupid" shots at the end of games...
GoBobs
10-06-2009, 10:03 AM
There were many times watching the games last year when I felt like our best option was Ray getting himself a shot or driving to the basket. He is without doubt one of our best players.
TOOT DADDY
10-06-2009, 01:01 PM
Can't wait until the season starts so everyone can stop comparing a fourth year guy to a rookie. Felton hands down should be the better of the two he has more experience and was healthy. First glimpse tonight i'll be watching.
Ghost Kat
10-06-2009, 01:05 PM
or maybe because last year was his first year as starting PG?
I know this is the common argument used in Feltons favor. But reguardless of what spot he has in the line up he's still PG. He's not a SG, He doesn't have the skill or mentality, so when he's on the court he still play's like a PG. He's been a starting PG since he was drafted.
Yes, last year and many yrs before Felton has been our best option. But to me thats the same as having someone like Jason Kidd as your #1 option. Kidd will be in the HOF for his passing not shooting. Felton is not a good shooter, He takes bad shots regularly. He hasn't improved over his career. Plenty of star players or just good players start off with garbadge coaches and they still improve from year to year.
WarioVsMooChicken
10-06-2009, 01:58 PM
Except he didn't start at PG his 3rd year here and his first two years he was barely a starter with BK here.
This was more of Mek's and GW's team then. Now it's more Felton and GW.
110oldeast
10-06-2009, 10:01 PM
That's tantamount to saying a guy is a QB just b/c the position he played in the past was QB. If Michael Vick were only running the wildcat and splitting out wide, it wouldn't do anything for his QB skills and he would not actually be playing QB even if he were historically a QB. He has said something to this effect himself.
Just b/c you play SG with a PG mentality does not mean you are running the team as a PG. It just means you are playing SG.
In the end with Felton, he is a grittier player than smooth player. But one shouldn't confuse ease with effectiveness.
And the notion that he hasn't improved is not one that I subscribe to. That said, improving as a wing and improving as a pg are VERY different.
Chauncey Billups was a journeyman pg with as bad and possibly a worse rep than Felton before LB was coaching him. PGs as much as any position are dependent upon coaching, system, and surrounding parts. Breakdowns in any of those 3 can adversely affect things. Break down in ALL 3 of those facets like Felton has had will definitely have adverse effects. In the end, he did a good job of running the team last year it will be interesting to see if he and the guys can grow together with some continuity in system and chemistry.
I know this is the common argument used in Feltons favor. But reguardless of what spot he has in the line up he's still PG. He's not a SG, He doesn't have the skill or mentality, so when he's on the court he still play's like a PG. He's been a starting PG since he was drafted.
Yes, last year and many yrs before Felton has been our best option. But to me thats the same as having someone like Jason Kidd as your #1 option. Kidd will be in the HOF for his passing not shooting. Felton is not a good shooter, He takes bad shots regularly. He hasn't improved over his career. Plenty of star players or just good players start off with garbadge coaches and they still improve from year to year.
Ghost Kat
10-07-2009, 01:10 AM
Everytime we start one of these I state all the good things Feltons brings to this team. I admit he's a good player that plays hard. I like that and respect it. But damn it Felton is not a star PG. He's a good PG on a young team. If he was improving so much, Why not pay him long term? Yes, Felton made an improvement last year under LB....You know what it was....He stopped shooting as many dumb shots. How many times in those game thread did we all go crazy as Felton would break his man down, get two steps in front of him then pull up off one leg for some god awful fade away jumper.
I remember those Sam Vincent days with Wallace at PF and Felton at SG. It was dumb when every one of the coaches have done it. Nothing about Felton says SG, But he has talent so coaches try to get him on the court. Honestly I like Felton, But I remain solid on the idea that if I have to choose between him and DJ, I'm still taking DJ. He's younger, has better scoring potential, Plays under control, cheaper contract, He's already a fan favorite, He's more marketable then Felton. I say that because DJ has already been invited to some big deal stuff so far. Everyone has their own option, I enjoy my hater role. Felton won't improve by any measurable amount this year. He'll still be a good player , But he's not going to reach some next level.If you believe that you wished on the same star as Adam Morrison. ( With his NBA championship ring) Fuck the Lakers :mad:
dav7z
10-07-2009, 06:50 AM
Everytime we start one of these I state all the good things Feltons brings to this team. I admit he's a good player that plays hard. I like that and respect it. But damn it Felton is not a star PG. He's a good PG on a young team. If he was improving so much, Why not pay him long term? Yes, Felton made an improvement last year under LB....You know what it was....He stopped shooting as many dumb shots. How many times in those game thread did we all go crazy as Felton would break his man down, get two steps in front of him then pull up off one leg for some god awful fade away jumper.
I remember those Sam Vincent days with Wallace at PF and Felton at SG. It was dumb when every one of the coaches have done it. Nothing about Felton says SG, But he has talent so coaches try to get him on the court. Honestly I like Felton, But I remain solid on the idea that if I have to choose between him and DJ, I'm still taking DJ. He's younger, has better scoring potential, Plays under control, cheaper contract, He's already a fan favorite, He's more marketable then Felton. I say that because DJ has already been invited to some big deal stuff so far. Everyone has their own option, I enjoy my hater role. Felton won't improve by any measurable amount this year. He'll still be a good player , But he's not going to reach some next level.If you believe that you wished on the same star as Adam Morrison. ( With his NBA championship ring) Fuck the Lakers :mad:
Carolinakat , You may be the largest Felton hater at Bobcatsplanet. I may be the biggest Felton fan . I will say DJ looked to have inproved in his first preseason game by leaps and bounds. I only saw two times he got broke down on the defencive side whitch is a vast inprovment over last year. Its still early preseason and i need to see better point compitition trying to break him down .
Game one
offence and leadership DJ-7 Felton-5
defence and leadership DJ-5 Felton -5
I saw some positive last night and hope to see more. But it's to early to debate the starting position after just one preseason game.
Ghost Kat
10-10-2009, 01:38 AM
I know it's preseason but who still has questions about DJ being able to run this team as a starter? He held his own ( again ) against IMO THE BEST, and NC's own, PG in the league. I'm not sayin DJ locked down Chris Paul. No. I'm saying he didn't get used, abused and turned into a highlight film. He held his own. Now if he can do that against CP3 whats to say the rest of the PG's in the league will some how dominate him?
Felton still played great while he was in the game but this leads to the problem LB was faced with last year. Both of them are good enough to deserve to be playing, But who gets the time?
CarolinaKat (http://www.bobcatsplanet.com/vb/member.php?u=1059) say's "Start DJ "
Fred Williamson
10-10-2009, 02:42 AM
CarolinaKat (http://www.bobcatsplanet.com/vb/member.php?u=1059) say's "Start DJ "
Schnitzel agrees.
IMO Raymond is and will be the starter all season, he's the leader on the court if we benched him for D.J. the team would lose that leader.
dnbman
10-10-2009, 06:38 AM
Felton still played great while he was in the game but this leads to the problem LB was faced with last year. Both of them are good enough to deserve to be playing, But who gets the time?
I think this game actually showed why Felton should still be the starter. He was the better defender and the better distributor. His scoring was actually pretty good too. I'm not taking anything away from DJs contributions, but he only scored a couple of fgs. The vast majority of his points came from fts, which may or may not get in future games. (Though, if he gets them, he's going to hit them!)
Also, Felton was a plus 9 for the time he was in. After he went out, NO regained the lead. That wasn't DJ's fault, as NO played better and we took a lot of ill advised shots.
Again, we have a great problem: two great point guards. However, I'll start the one who has the best two way game and distributes the ball best. Bring the other guy in to electrify the offense.
spectre
10-10-2009, 07:05 AM
I know it's preseason but who still has questions about DJ being able to run this team as a starter? He held his own ( again ) against IMO THE BEST, and NC's own, PG in the league.
Chris Paul burnt DJ for 15 points in the 3rd quarter after Felton went out.
You consider that holding his own?
DJ is getting better...but let's be realistic here.
Felton for Prez
10-10-2009, 09:46 AM
If only DJ was about 4inches taller and about 15-20lbs heavier. He'd be a sick 2 guard.
TOOT DADDY
10-10-2009, 11:04 AM
Chris Paul burnt DJ for 15 points in the 3rd quarter after Felton went out.
You consider that holding his own?
DJ is getting better...but let's be realistic here.
In that case is it safe to say D.J. also burnt him for 17 points. Also, I did mention six steals in two games that is different from last year.
BIGCatBobcat
10-10-2009, 11:45 AM
Completely discredited because it's Tom Sorenson. I feel like I have it in for the Observer's entire sports department annd it's probably not fair. However, Raymond Felton is a player, he has a place and it's not so much Ray or DJ but Ray and DJ. Both incredibly solid as a point, both comfortable running things, both comfortable scoring the ball. Make it happen with both until one is gone, which could be next year for all anyone knows. I think it puts us in a tremendous situation both for depth and possible trades. I don't think you shop either one but you can listen to options as they come up. It's good to have both and I hope they platoon and partner to the benefit of this team
davcbow
10-10-2009, 01:06 PM
Completely discredited because it's Tom Sorenson. I feel like I have it in for the Observer's entire sports department annd it's probably not fair. However, Raymond Felton is a player, he has a place and it's not so much Ray or DJ but Ray and DJ. Both incredibly solid as a point, both comfortable running things, both comfortable scoring the ball. Make it happen with both until one is gone, which could be next year for all anyone knows. I think it puts us in a tremendous situation both for depth and possible trades. I don't think you shop either one but you can listen to options as they come up. It's good to have both and I hope they platoon and partner to the benefit of this team
Amen , well said...:cool:
spectre
10-10-2009, 01:26 PM
In that case is it safe to say D.J. also burnt him for 17 points. Also, I did mention six steals in two games that is different from last year.
Uh...no, it isn't. DJ scored 4 points in the third quarter...the entire time he was matched up against Chris Paul. All four from the line.
Since the play by play is so easy to come by you might try looking for the facts instead of just making shit up.
Props to BigCat. We're in this to WIN...and having both PGs playing well is in our best interests for now and for the future.
dav7z
10-10-2009, 04:14 PM
Who should start Hendo, or Bell or Flip this season .
Bell looks like hes lost a step or two. Hendo plays better defence than Flip. Flip plays better offence. Wait Graham plays good on both sides ? What to do ?
BIGCat; definitely agree with you, our best chance to win is with both of these guys on the roster.
Who should start Hendo, or Bell or Flip this season .
Bell looks like hes lost a step or two. Hendo plays better defence than Flip. Flip plays better offence. Wait Graham plays good on both sides ? What to do ?
Bell should start because of his veteran experience, even if he's lost a step or two he's still better than Flip who from what I know has never been a long term starter for any team and is Hendo isn't ready to be a starter.
Ghost Kat
10-10-2009, 05:50 PM
CarolinaKat (http://www.bobcatsplanet.com/vb/member.php?u=1059) say's " Start DJ "
But about Bell, I noticed that he seemed a little off. Flip did a great job getting himself shots, He just missed all of them. But I've seen Flip play, That won't happen often. He's a better last second shot choice then Felton.
davcbow
10-12-2009, 01:43 AM
Who should start Hendo, or Bell or Flip this season .
Bell looks like hes lost a step or two. Hendo plays better defence than Flip. Flip plays better offence. Wait Graham plays good on both sides ? What to do ?
After 3 preseason games I have it like this between the 3:
1) Hendo is a 12.6 Using my "Bow flex grading system as per dav7z"
2) Murray is a 7
3) Bell is a 3.3
For a comparison to those grades:
DJ is a 18.6 tops on my scale
Jefferson is a -.6 bottem of my scale....:cool:
Lot's of different conversations going on here...not just about Felton...
I 100% say that Felton should start. I think that DJ is a great young backup point for our team but I really can't see how we would be better with him starting. The NFL has transformed over the past decade or so from each team having that 1 stud running back to having 2 and splitting time between them. I see a similar transition for the NBA with point guards. We need both Felts and DJ to be successful, but again, Raymond should (and will be) our starter this season. There is so much leadership that goes with being the starting point guard and when you compare DJ and Raymond in that department, it is obvious.
As far as the starting 2 goes, I feel that Raja should start. Even with his loss of a step, he is our best defensive 2 on the roster and probably our best 3 point shooter as well. As huge of a Henderson fan as I am, he just isn't ready yet (but he will be eventually). The only other real option to start the 2 right now is Flip Murray. And while there are some good arguements to this out there, I think he is the kind of player that can come off the bench to give us a spark with the second squad. Also, I think LB sees Flip as his 3rd string PG as well.
As soon as we picked Henderson, I felt like this was probably Raja's last year with us. Since we have declined to extend his contract and he would walk at the end of the year without any compensation, I could see him used in a trading deadline deal.
The great news is that we actually have options now because we have probably the deepest roster in franchise history. ILBIT.
Ghost Kat
10-12-2009, 11:25 AM
NFL teams run two backs mainly for safety purposes now. No running back really wants 300 rushing attempts or more per year. Thats alot of hits. Teams keep two back so atleast one back will make it through the season. The NBA is nowhere near getting to that point. I can't think of one NBA team with two star PG's. The teams i can think of that did have two traded the starter for the younger guy. Back to the NFL, why is it if you have a good starting QB and a good back up they can't keep both? Same reason Felton and DJ won't stay as a one two punch, Someone has to play and someone has to sit.
I seriously don't know what you folk see in Felton. What good is leadership when the team still loses? What made Felton supposely the leader all of a sudden? He's not the best player on this team. He's not even the second or third. So what is the supposed benefit of this great leadership?
etothet
10-12-2009, 05:09 PM
Well Raymond will be the startiing point guard until LB and the coaching staff thinks otherwise. Raymond played a large role in the success the team had last year. DJ can play, but he is not quite ready to start at the point guard. I am sure he will have the opportunity to prove that he should be the starter but until he does, he will be a key reserve. I hope DJ will stay healthy and have a good year. Having a good jump shot and being a great free throw shooter does not qualify someone a starter nor does a 40% fg percentage determine if a player should be a reserve. The intangibles determine a lot when deciding who starts at a particular position. DJ missed more games last year than Ray has missed in 4 years. That alone would not determine anything. It is all about the total package. The qualified people will make that determination.
dnbman
10-12-2009, 05:47 PM
NFL teams run two backs mainly for safety purposes now. No running back really wants 300 rushing attempts or more per year. Thats alot of hits. Teams keep two back so atleast one back will make it through the season. The NBA is nowhere near getting to that point. I can't think of one NBA team with two star PG's. The teams i can think of that did have two traded the starter for the younger guy. Back to the NFL, why is it if you have a good starting QB and a good back up they can't keep both? Same reason Felton and DJ won't stay as a one two punch, Someone has to play and someone has to sit.
I more or less agree. It's great to have two quality pgs, but teams usually don't keep two, as good point guards in high demand. The Sun's use of Barbosa and Nash is one of the few that has been truly effective and that's because both guys are great play makers and shooters.
I seriously don't know what you folk see in Felton. What good is leadership when the team still loses? What made Felton supposely the leader all of a sudden? He's not the best player on this team. He's not even the second or third. So what is the supposed benefit of this great leadership?
Why ask anymore when so many people have stated over and over again what they see in the guy?
As for leadership, PLENTY of pro sports teams don't look to their best skilled player or players to be leaders because leadership is its own skill set.
A guy who is only 3 preseason games into his 2nd year HAS to start somewhere? I don't see these 2 guys playing together forever but for this season for sure, they can surely coexist very well.
110oldeast
10-13-2009, 09:17 PM
I tried to stay out of this thread after it started dropping off the bottom, but since it came back up, I felt this part had to be addressed.
The NO game showed the exact opposite of what is implied here and the difference in pg assessment of some of us and why we see things differently. There was a guy who more than held his own against Paul. It was the guy who some folks spend much of the time focusing on his shortcomings.
Against Paul with the starters on both sides playing:
Felton played 14 minutes and had:
8 pts
5 assists
5 rebounds
2 steals
0 TOs
4-6 fg
Paul in this had 9 pts 2 assists 1 rebound 2 steals and 1 TO on 3-4 fg and 2-3 FT
*MOST importantly: the team was +9 on New Orleans' rotation at this time.
DJ played 10 minutes and had:
4 points
1 assist
0 rebounds
2 steals
0 TOs
0-2 FGs
Paul had 15 pts 4 assists 2 rebounds 0 steals and 2 TOs on 3-3 fg and 7-7 ft
*MOST importantly team was -15 in this time against Paul and NO's regular rotation.
Now, fantasy stat, final box score analysis and Hollingerized analysis would lead one to the conclusion that DJ should start or that this game showed how debatable it is. But when one really evaluates who "held their own" against Paul and more importantly, who was leading the TEAM to more success against Paul and the regulars (24 point swing in favor of New Orleans during DJ's stint vs. Felton's with a difference of 4 minutes played b/c the pgs), it tells a different story. Felton made Paul work on the defensive end, while making him work for whatever he got. In the time where Paul was against DJ, he took over, constantly getting into the lane to score or set up others slicing the lead from 18 to 3 in 10 minutes. Conversely, he neutralized DJ who shot 4 FTs, but did not threaten Paul the same way. There may be games that show that DJ is ready for primetime, but this wasn't the right example.
Ultimately, I think it would be great to watch the team, root for both guys and let things play out. If boths guy had the other guy's strengths, they might be the best in the league. That said, they both have strengths that can benefit the team and chinks in the armor that could stand improving. I think LB is doing things the way he is for a reason and am really excited about the potential of BOTH pgs and the Bobcats TEAM as a whole.
I know it's preseason but who still has questions about DJ being able to run this team as a starter? He held his own ( again ) against IMO THE BEST, and NC's own, PG in the league. I'm not sayin DJ locked down Chris Paul. No. I'm saying he didn't get used, abused and turned into a highlight film. He held his own. Now if he can do that against CP3 whats to say the rest of the PG's in the league will some how dominate him?
Felton still played great while he was in the game but this leads to the problem LB was faced with last year. Both of them are good enough to deserve to be playing, But who gets the time?
CarolinaKat (http://www.bobcatsplanet.com/vb/member.php?u=1059) say's "Start DJ "
Ghost Kat
10-14-2009, 12:55 PM
Blah, Blah, Blah......Felton still sucks
Blah, Blah, Blah......Felton still sucks
Blah, Blah, Blah..... No He Doesn't! :paddle:
davcbow
10-14-2009, 04:18 PM
Ready!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! wrestle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:cool:
Blah, Blah, Blah......Felton still sucks
Do you REALLY hate him so much as to ignore a well thought out and logical post??
And 110oldeast, that was great. I wish you'd post more.
dav7z
10-14-2009, 05:50 PM
Blah, Blah, Blah......Felton still sucks
In 110s post Facts showed Felton was the one who held his own not DJ in that game .
What im saying is whats with the Felton hate. Both players help the team . Im sure Larry Brown knows both players. Im so sick of either or why not both.
I like the idea of having two good points. You don't have to hate one to like the other.
dnbman
10-14-2009, 06:14 PM
You don't have to hate one to like the other.
Did you sign the Felton/DJ affirmation thread? You sound like a true believer.
110oldeast
10-14-2009, 07:48 PM
Thanks man. Stuffs been crazy with my new job and getting married this weekend, but I plan to post more as the year gets rolling. I am SO effing excited about our potential this year, especially as LB has had us pushing the pace. I just hope it keeps up.
And I am not saying I never post with emotion, but I will certainly insert as much logic and basketball knowledge in posts as possible. This is especially as myths often get passed off as fact on message boards and later throughout fanbases.
This is especially the case with Hollingerization of sports--box score analysis with minimal context.
PS dnbman,
I signed that thread and certainly am looking forward to us getting 40+ minutes of solid production out of that pg spot and hopefully wearing some teams down.
Do you REALLY hate him so much as to ignore a well thought out and logical post??
And 110oldeast, that was great. I wish you'd post more.
Ghost Kat
10-17-2009, 07:30 PM
In 110s post Facts showed Felton was the one who held his own not DJ in that game .
What im saying is whats with the Felton hate. Both players help the team . Im sure Larry Brown knows both players. Im so sick of either or why not both.
I like the idea of having two good points. You don't have to hate one to like the other.
Isn't the point of these types of threads to get both sides of the arguement? Felton by no means is a superstar player, Now when I point out the things that he does that drives us all crazy I'm hating?? I'll tell you like I told 110 last year, I cheer for everyone when the game starts. Felton is a prefectly fine player... They both have LB as a coach now. But what do you think happens first...DJ improves his so called lack of defense or Felton improves his shooting and shot choices?
110oldeast
10-18-2009, 09:39 PM
I think we did get both sides of the argument. I simply made my point using concrete evidence from the game instead of using cliches about both players.
Isn't the point of these types of threads to get both sides of the arguement? Felton by no means is a superstar player, Now when I point out the things that he does that drives us all crazy I'm hating?? I'll tell you like I told 110 last year, I cheer for everyone when the game starts. Felton is a prefectly fine player... They both have LB as a coach now. But what do you think happens first...DJ improves his so called lack of defense or Felton improves his shooting and shot choices?
Ghost Kat
10-18-2009, 09:43 PM
I think we did get both sides of the argument. I simply made my point using concrete evidence from the game instead of using cliches about both players.
Thats one game.....Hooray 4 you on being right
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