View Full Version : Is Brown hating on the rookies?
bendylegsnick
11-18-2009, 04:46 PM
With our offense being one of the worst in the league, I can't see why the minutes of Henderson and Derrick Brown seem to be getting less and less. Why doesn't Larry Brown take a chance on one of them, they could turn up and win a game for the Bobcats. This is especially important as, with the exception of the recently acquired Stephen Jackson(:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:), we haven't really got a lot of options.
With our offense being one of the worst in the league, I can't see why the minutes of Henderson and Derrick Brown seem to be getting less and less. Why doesn't Larry Brown take a chance on one of them, they could turn up and win a game for the Bobcats. This is especially important as, with the exception of the recently acquired Stephen Jackson(:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:), we haven't really got a lot of options.
First off, welcome!
I think now that Vladi is gone, at least UPS will see some more burn, but Hendo is stuck behind two very good SG's in Jack and Flip. But I'd love to see them and Lexy play more.
Marvel
11-18-2009, 05:49 PM
I like the S-Jax trade but this won't put us in the top 8,we need a few............ok a lot of other things to improve obviously if we are going to get that 7th,8th seed.Felton seriously needs to pull his head out his ass and start playing like a starting pg he's gone backwards again this season,DJ has also gone backwards in fact the only player that hasn't gone backwards is Flip Murray.Gerald Wallace will need to improve his efficiency on the offensive end he's been brilliant on the boards but that's not getting us wins.Diaw is just starting to pick his game up and he will need to play like he did for us last season and then there's TC.............................keep out of foul trouble should be a good start i thought he was "Mr Glass Cleaner" more like "Mr Foul Machine":D:D.We also lead the league in turnovers at 17.5.That's fricking ridiculous on any level.That's giving away like 15-20 points off.So we need a lot of improvement in other areas if we are going to compete for our first ever playoff berth.
LB probably will be playing S-Jax and Flip alot of minutes from here on out so i don't see any of our rookies getting any burn unless we blow a team out (literally chuckled typing that).
amour217
11-18-2009, 07:55 PM
He's notorious for not playing rookies very much....he probably hates on wookies too
SWedd523
11-18-2009, 10:30 PM
He's notorious for not playing rookies very much....he probably hates on wookies too
Yeah but Chewbacca would be a great backup PF, dude can bang down low
Muttley
11-18-2009, 10:36 PM
Yeah but Chewbacca would be a great backup PF, dude can bang down low
Plus his arms are so long. The guy's got great reach.
Walt Cronkite
11-18-2009, 10:39 PM
LB has no problem playing rookies that are talented enough to earn minutes. Please see: http://www.bobcatsplanet.com/vb/showthread.php?p=141303#post141303
a work in two parts.
SWedd523
11-18-2009, 10:41 PM
LB has no problem playing rookies that are talented enough to earn minutes. Please see: http://www.bobcatsplanet.com/vb/showthread.php?p=141303#post141303
a work in two parts.
Dead horse, Walt.
Walt, dead horse.
I feel your pain :facepalm:
JamieMcNeill
11-18-2009, 10:42 PM
LB has no problem playing rookies that are talented enough to earn minutes. Please see: http://www.bobcatsplanet.com/vb/showthread.php?p=141303#post141303
a work in two parts.
A daunting task.
Can i just read War and Peace instead? :D
Walt Cronkite
11-18-2009, 10:45 PM
A daunting task.
Can i just read War and Peace instead? :D
hyuckhyuckhyuck
JamieMcNeill
11-18-2009, 10:49 PM
hyuckhyuckhyuck
I think the point is just that sometimes some trial and error (pt in real games) is the best way for some rookies to polish the talent. I agree that no talented rook has ever not played. But, sometimes the rookies considered "less talented," have just not gotten any time to work the NBA out in gametime situations.
Walt, you're never going to convince anyone that LB plays rooks, even with your evidence. Just like me and Ray's trade issues...
JamieMcNeill
11-18-2009, 10:56 PM
Walt, you're never going to convince anyone that LB plays rooks, even with your evidence. Just like me and Ray's trade issues...
You got me. He has a basic no-trade clause because of his one-year qualifying offer. Must agree to trades. SEE?
You got me. He has a basic no-trade clause because of his one-year qualifying offer. Must agree to trades. SEE?
You're one of the few.
Read the "DJ and Raymon" thread..."we need to trade Ray" "dump Ray for a PF" "Ray for Harris"
Walt Cronkite
11-18-2009, 11:05 PM
I think the point is just that sometimes some trial and error (pt in real games) is the best way for some rookies to polish the talent. I agree that no talented rook has ever not played. But, sometimes the rookies considered "less talented," have just not gotten any time to work the NBA out in gametime situations.
polishing rookies =/=making the playoffs, which is obviously the team and lb's goal based on their construction. "Less talented" rookies have sometimes had a problem getting work in NBA game time situations... just not with LB at the helm. Bell and Parker are probably the most analogous situations to Henderson, wing players that will carve out a career with hard nosed defense and hustle. If LB thinks Henderson can bring those things better than Graham, Felton and Murray he will definitely get minutes. Brown will probably not average more than around 10mpg unless there is another trade in the future that sees us departing with one of our bigger forwards.
Also worth discussing is something LB has mentioned a number of times in regard to the rooks and sophomores being unprepared for the season-- no rookie camp (whatever that is) and summer league. I am very confident that LB will play the rookies if they give us the best chance to win.
Walt Cronkite
11-18-2009, 11:08 PM
Walt, you're never going to convince anyone that LB plays rooks, even with your evidence. Just like me and Ray's trade issues...
Yea, it's sad. So much time spent disputing myths instead of discussing possible issues that are at the heart of the matter. Imagine if everyone thought "would Felton sign away his bird rights and agree to this trade? Would I in his place?" before offering up a trade that he's involved in. We could be spending our time analyzing game tape and stats figuring out what he should focus on and avoid more specifically instead.
I think an ability to actually use solid rotations is more the question than "will he play rooks"...just my thought...
JamieMcNeill
11-19-2009, 10:18 AM
polishing rookies =/=making the playoffs, which is obviously the team and lb's goal based on their construction. "Less talented" rookies have sometimes had a problem getting work in NBA game time situations... just not with LB at the helm. Bell and Parker are probably the most analogous situations to Henderson, wing players that will carve out a career with hard nosed defense and hustle. If LB thinks Henderson can bring those things better than Graham, Felton and Murray he will definitely get minutes. Brown will probably not average more than around 10mpg unless there is another trade in the future that sees us departing with one of our bigger forwards.
Also worth discussing is something LB has mentioned a number of times in regard to the rooks and sophomores being unprepared for the season-- no rookie camp (whatever that is) and summer league. I am very confident that LB will play the rookies if they give us the best chance to win.
Speaking of Brown's PT. Do you think he can be effective as a backup PF? Because I get the feeling LB doesnt think so.. I like him there coming off the bench more than putting wallace at PF, Jax at SF and then having some combination of Felton,Flip,DJ at the 1 and 2 spots. Brown is so much quicker than a lot of PF- and he can shoot. The problem is- to put in Brown would either mean not having a combination of Felts/flip/Dj at 1 and 2 or taking Sjax or wallace out for some period of time. ANother problem is do we go small with Diaw at 5 or does Nazr come in and Diaw leaves? Without legit post players and a magnitude of 1's and 2's it's very difficult to figure out lineups. Just general thoughts..
Start- Felton, SJax, Wallace, Diaw, TC?
First subs- DJ, Flip, Sjax Wallace Diaw= small
Or- Flip, Sjax, Wallace, Brown, TC?
or- DJ, Flip, Sjax, Brown TC?
JamieMcNeill
11-19-2009, 10:21 AM
I think an ability to actually use solid rotations is more the question than "will he play rooks"...just my thought...
Agreed thats what im saying above. What kind of rotation can we have right now with this roster? We have 4 1/2s that deserve PT, (Felts,DJ,Flip,Sjax and even the possibility of Law considering the point play lately) only 1 real PF (a soft one at that) and almost no production at the 5. With this roster its almost impossible to not go small. This is a confusing roster setup.
...at this point with Ty and Nazzy both injured UPS could start at the 4 and Diaw at the 5...very small line-up but similar to what the Suns had to do when Amare was injured that year...
But I think UPS can play the 4 but is LB willing to do it...I have no idea...:g:
chabber
11-19-2009, 01:52 PM
In regards to Felton's bird rights, if his play doesn't improve then him keeping his bird rights may not even matter if the market for him is dried up. If I ran the Bobcats I certainly wouldn't give him max raises unless his starting number was pretty low and I definitley wouldn't give him a 6 year deal. It may be the same for any other team that would look to get him in a S&T which is the only other way he'd get a bird contract.
Thinking of it this way if I was his agent and was presented with a trade that could improve his situation I wouldn't necessarily balk at the idea of relinquishing them. I'd definitely be hesitant to but I wouldn't rule it out.
Walt Cronkite
11-19-2009, 01:58 PM
Speaking of Brown's PT. Do you think he can be effective as a backup PF? Because I get the feeling LB doesnt think so.. I like him there coming off the bench more than putting wallace at PF, Jax at SF and then having some combination of Felton,Flip,DJ at the 1 and 2 spots. Brown is so much quicker than a lot of PF- and he can shoot. The problem is- to put in Brown would either mean not having a combination of Felts/flip/Dj at 1 and 2 or taking Sjax or wallace out for some period of time. ANother problem is do we go small with Diaw at 5 or does Nazr come in and Diaw leaves? Without legit post players and a magnitude of 1's and 2's it's very difficult to figure out lineups. Just general thoughts..
Start- Felton, SJax, Wallace, Diaw, TC?
First subs- DJ, Flip, Sjax Wallace Diaw= small
Or- Flip, Sjax, Wallace, Brown, TC?
or- DJ, Flip, Sjax, Brown TC?
I don't like Jackson guarding 2s, but Wallace doesn't want to guard 4s... I honestly see this as a team by team issue. LB wants Jackson and Wallace on the floor as much as possible, but Jackson or Diaw have to guard the pf if they're on the floor with Wallace (I'm fine with this). This leaves Wallace out on the perimeter always or following a tweener type guy in the event the opposition goes small. For Brown to get more than ~10mpg he'll have to steal minutes from Jackson or Wallace or play alongside Diaw in a small unit or in place of him at the 4 with Jax at the 2.
We are not going to have a consistent rotation all season because LB likes to play matchups. That's why he's always talking about how he likes guys that can play multiple positions.
Walt Cronkite
11-19-2009, 02:00 PM
In regards to Felton's bird rights, if his play doesn't improve then him keeping his bird rights may not even matter if the market for him is dried up. If I ran the Bobcats I certainly wouldn't give him max raises unless his starting number was pretty low and I definitley wouldn't give him a 6 year deal. It may be the same for any other team that would look to get him in a S&T which is the only other way he'd get a bird contract.
Thinking of it this way if I was his agent and was presented with a trade that could improve his situation I wouldn't necessarily balk at the idea of relinquishing them. I'd definitely be hesitant to but I wouldn't rule it out.
What circumstances would you consider to improve his situation?
chabber
11-19-2009, 02:19 PM
I was just playing a little devils advocate instead of just saying he'd 100% never give them up which has happened with players before.
Felton loves it here so I don't know if there is a team that would set his heart a blaze enough for him to want to go there. As far as situation goes being on a team where he has more shooters/scorers around him or inside scorers to pass could help his assists and cut down his turnovers if he's not ball controlling as much as he is here. Finding that place would be the hard part.
JamieMcNeill
11-19-2009, 02:31 PM
I don't like Jackson guarding 2s, but Wallace doesn't want to guard 4s... I honestly see this as a team by team issue. LB wants Jackson and Wallace on the floor as much as possible, but Jackson or Diaw have to guard the pf if they're on the floor with Wallace (I'm fine with this). This leaves Wallace out on the perimeter always or following a tweener type guy in the event the opposition goes small. For Brown to get more than ~10mpg he'll have to steal minutes from Jackson or Wallace or play alongside Diaw in a small unit or in place of him at the 4 with Jax at the 2.
We are not going to have a consistent rotation all season because LB likes to play matchups. That's why he's always talking about how he likes guys that can play multiple positions.
I see what you are saying about the matchup rotations, and it makes sense. But when we are playing small, at this point with our points playing less than terrific, i would prefer to see felts/dj/flip, sjax, wallace, UPS, diaw.
Walt Cronkite
11-19-2009, 03:21 PM
I was just playing a little devils advocate instead of just saying he'd 100% never give them up which has happened with players before.
Felton loves it here so I don't know if there is a team that would set his heart a blaze enough for him to want to go there. As far as situation goes being on a team where he has more shooters/scorers around him or inside scorers to pass could help his assists and cut down his turnovers if he's not ball controlling as much as he is here. Finding that place would be the hard part.
Yea, no malice on my end, we tend to think pretty alike, as you know. I'm just trying to think of realistic situations. Maybe Orlando, but I think they're pretty pleased with White Chocolate and would have to really fall apart with Nelson out to consider that. Boston maybe as a backup? Maybe Paul gets hurt and NOH shuts him down and wants to try Felton? Either way, he's not going to yield the caliber of player that some have proposed, but more like a Glen Davis/Brandon Bass/???.
I definitely can't imagine a possibility where someone solves our PG problem, so this move would probably mean LB is ready to turn things over to DJ?
Walt Cronkite
11-19-2009, 03:22 PM
I see what you are saying about the matchup rotations, and it makes sense. But when we are playing small, at this point with our points playing less than terrific, i would prefer to see felts/dj/flip, sjax, wallace, UPS, diaw.
Could have success against the Bucks, Pacers and Raptors... but Cleveland would love to see us roll out that lineup.
chabber
11-19-2009, 03:42 PM
Yea, no malice on my end, we tend to think pretty alike, as you know. I'm just trying to think of realistic situations. Maybe Orlando, but I think they're pretty pleased with White Chocolate and would have to really fall apart with Nelson out to consider that. Boston maybe as a backup? Maybe Paul gets hurt and NOH shuts him down and wants to try Felton? Either way, he's not going to yield the caliber of player that some have proposed, but more like a Glen Davis/Brandon Bass/???.
I definitely can't imagine a possibility where someone solves our PG problem, so this move would probably mean LB is ready to turn things over to DJ?
Yeah I know you didn't mean anything by it. I've never proposed a Felton trade myself because I know it'd be difficult. I imagine on our end if we have decided to part ways we'd take back just about anything that could help us. Players like Glen Davis or Brandon Bass would actually be pretty good return IMO. That's probably on the high end of what we'd be getting in unless he was part of a multi-player deal.
spectre
11-19-2009, 04:17 PM
Maybe LB gets frustrated enough at Felton that he will bench him, but as LB is so concerned about defense I will be very surprised if he'd take DJ's offense over Felton's defense...esp. since DJ hasn't shown that he's as good as Felton in running the offense (and since Felton's only around average at that this isn't good).
Meaning I think he'd live with Felton's shortcomings over DJ's.
If you guys haven't noticed the last 2 games LB has went with Flip over DJ first. How long he'll try that experiment I don't know...as personally I thought Flip was worse running the team than either of the other two.
The TOs are the thing that could tilt the scales in the other direction tho...I know that pisses LB off.
But what the hell do I know?
I'm very surprised that we didn't move someone for Andre Miller...and right now I wish we had. Betcha LB is wishing that too.
TheBeagle
11-20-2009, 12:55 AM
Yeah, no way is he hating on them. In fact, I think he's quite enamored with them (at least Derrick), but, like Walt or teej or another of our fabulous Cat cadre said, not fielding their own SL team stunted some necessary experience and even more importantly they lost out on learning Larry's style and system.....they were basically just mercs for Utah and Minnesota playing pickup games.
Derrick is a practice junky, and has, for the most part, been rewarded for that with decent PT (as opposed to being inactive) other the last handful of games. Nowhere near what I'd like to see (for fanboy reasons), but he is a big part of the future of the franchise (probably the best part) and he'll get plenty of minutes down the road.
But yeah, Larry is more than fine with these rooks....last year's class? Not so much.
Well Beagle...I think Higgins drafted this years class vs. LB drafting last years...I think I'd rather have Higgins handle the drafts...not LB...:paddle:
Ghost Kat
11-20-2009, 04:37 PM
Well Beagle...I think Higgins drafted this years class vs. LB drafting last years...I think I'd rather have Higgins handle the drafts...not LB...:paddle:
I think LB got exactly the players He personally wanted. There were plenty of Bigs left over in the 2nd rd. But he saw something in Derrick Brown. I see it too, He way more developed then Lexy , He just needs more PT. In the 1st rd we had to get a SG. Good thing we did with Raja getting hurt again, Plus now getting traded. Signing Flip and drafting Henderson means we have a scoring and defensive SG rotation.
Why do you think LB didn't have complete control over who was drafted? He's already gotten rid of 85% of our roster, I think he has so say so on who's coming in next.
Ghost Kat
11-20-2009, 04:39 PM
i would prefer to see felts/dj/flip, sjax, wallace, UPS, diaw.
Diaw doesn't rebound at PF, Putting him at C is begging for us to get killed on the boards.
Walt Cronkite
11-20-2009, 04:43 PM
Well Beagle...I think Higgins drafted this years class vs. LB drafting last years...I think I'd rather have Higgins handle the drafts...not LB...:paddle:
I wish someone would claim the Ajinça pick. I know rumors exist that MJ and maybe Rod wanted to take Brook but at the last minute LB convinced them that we needed DJ more and that we were eying Hibbert when we ended up with Lex. We worked out players that went after Lex, so I have to think that someone really believed in him, especially since we brought him over immediately instead of keeping him stashed in Europe.
FWIW, Hendo and Brown seem like LB picks to me.
Walt Cronkite
11-20-2009, 04:46 PM
Diaw doesn't rebound at PF, Putting him at C is begging for us to get killed on the boards.
??? We're one of the best rebounding teams in the league on both ends of the floor and it's not like you can attribute it to Chandler.
Ghost Kat
11-20-2009, 04:55 PM
??? We're one of the best rebounding teams in the league on both ends of the floor and it's not like you can attribute it to Chandler.
I'll cosign with the part about Tyson But Wallace is avg. 11.0 per because he's flying around and going after every loose ball. Sooner or later he'll Crash & burn as always. Then we will be back to one of the worse rebounding teams in the league.
Walt Cronkite
11-20-2009, 05:14 PM
I'll cosign with the part about Tyson But Wallace is avg. 11.0 per because he's flying around and going after every loose ball. Sooner or later he'll Crash & burn as always. Then we will be back to one of the worse rebounding teams in the league.
No possibility that Boris' ability to box out his own man could possibly be the reason that Wallace is rebounding well this year and lead all sfs in rebounds a year ago?
TheBeagle
11-21-2009, 03:05 AM
I wish someone would claim the Ajinça pick. I know rumors exist that MJ and maybe Rod wanted to take Brook but at the last minute LB convinced them that we needed DJ more and that we were eying Hibbert when we ended up with Lex. We worked out players that went after Lex, so I have to think that someone really believed in him, especially since we brought him over immediately instead of keeping him stashed in Europe.
FWIW, Hendo and Brown seem like LB picks to me. Enough BCP archive searching, I could find it, but I'm a lazy ass so.....
I remember Lexy worked out predraft along with Hibbert and a few other bigs and absolutely wore them out....he was flying past his defenders and putting on a slam dunk contest all his own. Larry fell in love with his potential and thought so highly of him that he traded for that 2nd first round pick in order to get him because he was convinced he would be a lottery pick the following year ('09).
bendylegsnick
11-21-2009, 05:22 AM
No possibility that Boris' ability to box out his own man could possibly be the reason that Wallace is rebounding well this year and lead all sfs in rebounds a year ago?
As Diaw is rebounding so badly, I say move Wallace to the 4, use him on the inside, as he can get more points there than Diaw or Chandler anyway, and use a rotation on the guards for outside shooting.
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