Evolution or God [Archive] - Bobcatsplanet Forum

Ghost Kat

12-09-2009, 01:44 PM

Ok BCP, Another topic to debate about....

How did we get here?

Common belief's are either God made mankind or we came from apes and we evolved over millions of years into what we are now. Or Maybe it's a mix of both.

For those that believe God made us...

Why does the human body have so many different problems and illnesses? Some of these problems will kill us or disfigure us and we are born with them. Humans have over 4,000 different physical disorders. If we are made in Gods image,Why do we get sick so easy, How is it you can tell a persons race just from their skeleton? Shouldn't we all look alike? We as humans are frail pitiful creatures without our technology and guns. We can only live in certain places on the earth certain times of the year. Does sound like God made us just for this planet?

Evoltuionist:

Where's the missing link? If you look at our suppose path of evolution Humans have no place in the chain. The "Caveman" and modern humans look nothing alike. Our Bones aren't as thick, We arn't as strong, We aren't as hairy, We are ten times smarter, But with a smaller brain. All the bones of supposed "ape like humans" that show our transition are nothing like modern humans. They look more like miny bigfoot bones. More monkey then human.

So...Where did We comefrom BCP?

WarioVsMooChicken

12-09-2009, 02:15 PM

Can't Evolution and God go hand in hand? >.> Almost all the rational religious people I know seem to think that God put evolution to work, and if i was religious, I think that would be the only sane way to go >.>

I'm atheist, so I don't believe a God put us here, but of course, while evolution is obviously real. There's LOTS left to find out.

The only part I can answer about that, because I'm not really well versed about this, is that religious people will say that our bodies suck because it was God's way of punish us for Adam and Eve eating that fruit. I think that evolution sort of explains that we are weaker and less hairy because we have grown to need hair and strength less.

bing!

12-09-2009, 02:36 PM

I actually pray to the idols of science... want one?

http://www.geekologie.com/2008/07/28/stephen-hawking-1.jpg

Can't Evolution (science) and God go hand in hand?

^ sure they can!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_TxtOpAB0ckU/SQ0VFUmlSHI/AAAAAAAAAZA/q-StJZe_ftk/s400/Stephen+Hawking+Meeting+Pope+Benedict.jpg

And my saliva isn't as green as a carboxyl... :facepalm:

:confused:

:rolleyes:

WarioVsMooChicken

12-09-2009, 02:39 PM

Lego Stephan Hawking is so gangster

Woodsy23

12-09-2009, 06:15 PM

my honest belief is evolution and i am a complete atheist but damn i wish i was religious... imagine living your life thinking your going to go to this great place after you die... must be a nice way to live your life tbh and i feel kinda gutted im not religious but i cant change my views which kinda sucks but oh well. the evidence is stacked massively in favour of evolution unfortuantely. However i do believe in a person called Jesus however i believe he and people he worked with created Christianity for the single reeason: money. The richest city in the world is the vatican city.. Jesus sold the idea of immortality to millions and whats the one thing you want more than love, happiness, fame and riches? you guessed it.. immortality. Lots of people have become very rich thanks to the idea of an afterlife call me crazy but coincidence? i think not. Money makes the world go round.

Dunk

12-09-2009, 07:54 PM

Where's the missing link? If you look at our suppose path of evolution Humans have no place in the chain. The "Caveman" and modern humans look nothing alike. Our Bones aren't as thick, We arn't as strong, We aren't as hairy, We are ten times smarter, But with a smaller brain. All the bones of supposed "ape like humans" that show our transition are nothing like modern humans. They look more like miny bigfoot bones. More monkey then human.

I'm not sure what you mean by a 'missing link'. There's plenty of stuff in the records and some DNA evidence that show that we're related and thus have evolved from a common ancestor some 8 million or so years ago. The oldest that has been fully recovered, Ardi, was pretty recent (I think the papers can still be found on the Science website for free) at about 6 million years or so. It was interesting based on the head position, the hands, how it walked (you can tell about how the hips were formed, where the muscles were attached and so forth). The feet were still ape-like which was interesting so that must have common later. There's no really missing 'link' per so. Species are always in transition it just happens slowly and is difficult to notice in most instances unless it is artificially accelerated.

Neanderthals are a separate species so naturally they're going to look different. We overlapped at some point in our time on the planet so we evolved in some other pocket. Dawkins in his book Greatest Show On Earth (and also Climbing Mount Improbable) talks about tradeoffs. Generally, there's only so much to work with. We might have sacrificed physicality and endurance for intelligence. Maybe we had to or maybe a change in diet allowed that to happen. In any case, it was worthwhile as that allowed further development of language, tools, and eventually agriculture and civilizations.

The fact that it's a question just shows how retarded we are as a country.

SWedd523

12-09-2009, 08:19 PM

Something I've always wondered....if God really did create the universe, what created him?

WarioVsMooChicken

12-09-2009, 09:16 PM

i created god

SWedd523

12-09-2009, 09:17 PM

i created god
What created you?

Scottley Crue

12-09-2009, 10:20 PM

I do believe in God, and I do believe that God, if nothing else, at least set evolution in motion. Obviously, the Bible says he created man and woman, but it's never something I've really got bent out of shape about. There's waaaaaaaay more important stuff in the Bible to me than how things/people were created.

WarioVsMooChicken

12-09-2009, 10:48 PM

What created you?

The god making machine

SWedd523

12-09-2009, 10:59 PM

The god making machine
Who made that?

Keetch

12-10-2009, 07:26 AM

Believing in something doesn't make it true, except to the perception of the believer.

There are no absolutes, except those we make up.

Woodsy23

12-10-2009, 11:47 AM

Who made that?

michael jordan?:confused:

WarioVsMooChicken

12-10-2009, 02:27 PM

Took the words right out of my mouth

Ghost Kat

12-10-2009, 02:58 PM

I'm not sure what you mean by a 'missing link'.

Neanderthals are a separate species so naturally they're going to look different. We overlapped at some point in our time on the planet so we evolved in some other pocket.

I guess we can agree Neandererthals and Modern Humans aren't the same species. So if we evolved from them, Why did we lose so much in the trade off? They were stronger, had thicker bones, they were better adapted to Earths changing climates, They were bigger with larger brains. Evolution doesn't work backwards, We lost more then we gained.

THe bones that have been found like Lucy and Aldi are not human bones. They are the bones of upright walking apes. Miny bigfoot, like i said before. They look nothing like humans, their bone structure more closely resembles ancient apes then humans. The common thought is sooner or later we will find the bones of a Modern human teh shows the ape to human flip more clearly. But every skeleton thye find looks more monkey then man.

As we are today, Modern Humans, We have no place in the evolutionary chain. We may be related to Ape's, But we as we look today we are off the flow track of life for this planet.

Ghost Kat

12-10-2009, 03:26 PM

I do believe that God, if nothing else, at least set evolution in motion.

Question for the Holy Rollers:

Isn't saying you believe in the bible stories and God but then saying you believe somewhat in evolution, Isn't that blasphemy? Either you believe God created Man and Woman in the Garden of Eden out of dirt and a rib bone just like the Bible says or you dont. Can't really have it both ways, Either the Bible is true or it's just a bunch of stories. I don't think you get to pick and choose what stories and laws from the bible to follow.

If we are made by God and he watches over our every action, Why does he allow mankind to fight and kill in his name. He allows there to be 100's of different religions causing mankind to fight and kill and invade others to boost their membership. If a little kid falls on the train tracks and lives thats God, But when Muslims fly into buildings thats not God? He didn't stop it, never does, But we still give him credit for all the good stuff.....

WarioVsMooChicken

12-10-2009, 03:51 PM

Can't you just say that the creation story stands for something? Like it wasn't meant to be taken literally?

And we didn't evolve from Neanderthals, we just share a common ancestor.

Ghost Kat

12-10-2009, 04:05 PM

If we have a common ancestor....Thats like today a Chinese woman having one Black baby and one White baby. We are so totally different that evolution doesn't have enough time to change our bodies that much. Not if we modern humans are 200,000 years old as science says. We are different all the way down to our genes, takes a long time to change up your genes enough to create a whole new species. We have 46 chromosomes, Apes have 48. How do we lose two chromosomes and get better??

I'm not the one taking the creation story literally, It's the holy rollers. It's the ones saying you will burn in hell for not believing the same as they do. I think the creation story has it's good points, But to rational thinking people it doesn't make sense. Every religion basically says our way is the light and the truth, Every word in our holy books comes straight from our divine maker.

for a nonbeliever like yourself what does the creation story stand for?

teej

12-10-2009, 04:39 PM

I don't want to label myself as a Christian, because that has so many negative connotations, but rather, a follower of Jesus Christ. I believe in microevolution, i.e., the change in a species over time to adapt to it's environment, but I find those who claim we descend from apes quite, well, amusing. I don't see it.

As far as the Creation story, seeing as how we don't even have the original copy of the text, we don't know that Adam's rib is what God is said to have formed Eve from, but if it is what the original text says, then I can still see that fitting in. If God created Earth, which I think he did, then he could start it how he wanted, then set his laws in motion. Which answers the question of why he allows all things to go on. Heck, he sent his son to die if you believe the Bible. This all makes sense to "Holy Rollers" because in the Bible, there's text about how God wanted to create earth to see how totally independent thinkers could exist with their own free will, unlike the angels, after Lucifer & co. had their issue. If you look at the reasons, methods, and actions, I can find justification for all. Is it right? I don't know. Mother Theresa, John the Baptist, even Jesus had struggles witht their faith. Whether or not the scripture is all 100% true is probably mine, because I'm so science-oriented. But we'll all find out (or not) when we die.

And swedd, if God exists, then he always has, and time does not exist to him, at least as we see it. Time is a human quantity. Hard to grasp, eh?

Dunk

12-10-2009, 06:38 PM

We didn't evolve from apes. Nor did we evolve from Neanderthals. Rather, Neanderthals and ourselves have a common ancestor (along with various ape species) and we have a sub common ancestor with Neanderthals. Much of our genetic material is similar. I never said Ardi or Lucy were human or even close to it. If you look at genetic and skeleton structure, we aren't that different especially relative to other species.

Evolution can happen quickly, especially when certain conditions prevail. There's been some changes in just a few generations found in fish sizes, bird beak sizes, and elephant tusk sizes. A few hundred thousand years is not unreasonable especially with changes in diet and geological changes.

I've always wondered about this micro/macro debate. There's quite a few examples and evidence. I'm not sure what the problem is there.

I had a whole rant about the Bible but I deleted it. :) Anyone who follows me on twitter knows a whole lot about that. Oooofah.

Ghost Kat

12-10-2009, 08:36 PM

This is an interresting debate, Good points by all. I'm going to argue against both sides since I have a totally different theroy as to what happened to us. I'm not looking for a right or wrong side, As usual I just want to introduce you to some new info and make you think. :biggrin:

Now, I'm guessing it was missed the first time so let me repeat myself, Our common ancestor the Ape and his common ancestor Australopithecines have 48 chromosomes. Modern Humans have 46. Now i'm not the smartest man in Raeford but losing two whole chromosomes and somehow getting better doesn't make much sense. Thats alot of DNA lost in a very quick time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution

We have alot of common ancestors but none of them come close to modern humans. We seemed to just pop up out of nowhere and in a very short time totally change our bodies and behavior. We learned how to make fire and use the wheel then we quickly jumped to PS 3 and Atom bombs. We have advanced so quickly in such a short amount of time it's radically against the idea of evolution. Genetics and good old science says modern humans are no more then 250,000 years old. What made us change from bigfoot to Gerald Wallace in such a short time? That doesn't happen in nature without some super horrible natural disaster.

Muttley

12-10-2009, 09:13 PM

Now, I'm guessing it was missed the first time so let me repeat myself, Our common ancestor the Ape and his common ancestor Australopithecines have 48 chromosomes. Modern Humans have 46. Now i'm not the smartest man in Raeford but losing two whole chromosomes and somehow getting better doesn't make much sense. Thats alot of DNA lost in a very quick time.
Well, I'm not sure how they were lost, but less chromosomes doesn't necessarily mean a lower life form, and more doesn't imply a higher life form. Less could mean a matter of having more efficiently coded genes.

According to almighty wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_organisms_by_chromosome_count) doves have 78 chromosomes.

Ghost Kat

12-11-2009, 07:48 PM

Well, I'm not sure how they were lost, but less chromosomes doesn't necessarily mean a lower life form, and more doesn't imply a higher life form. Less could mean a matter of having more efficiently coded genes.

According to almighty wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_organisms_by_chromosome_count) doves have 78 chromosomes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs1zeWWIm5M&feature=player_embedded

I totally agree that having more or less doesn't make you a better or more efficient lifeform. But, that doesn't explain how we lost that much DNA from our ancestor and turned out ten times better. I was going to get to the fact that we have one chromosome that is fused together. The guy in the random video may be more believable then me, I'll post more if needed. Nature doesn't just take two chromosomes then fuse them together. Thats not how nature works, Thats the type of thing scientist do today with genetic manipulation. We do it with food, planets, animals, Dolly the sheep. But nature doesn't do that, Especially not in such a short time frame.

Dunk:
"Evolution can happen quickly, especially when certain conditions prevail. There's been some changes in just a few generations found in fish sizes, bird beak sizes, and elephant tusk sizes. A few hundred thousand years is not unreasonable especially with changes in diet and geological changes. "

Changing the size of a birds beak or elephant tusks isn't making a new species. That is exactly what Humans are. It's the same as saying a chimp gave birth to a gorilla. They both share a common ancestor and basically they are cousins but they can't make a brand new species.

As far as I know there wasn't a serious enough ELE ( Extinction Level Event ) in the last 250,000 years to push evolution into overdrive.

Marvel

12-11-2009, 08:44 PM

I believe in God i have been to a few churches in my lifetime and my brother is currently at an Evangelical Fellowship(which i have left).I have faith that God exists and that Jesus Christ was the Son of God.

Something I've always wondered....if God really did create the universe, what created him?

I asked my brother the same question,and believe me he could put all your theories Kat, about evolution, down.You all know we are only capable of using like what 11% percent of our brain right.We can never understand God, what made him is a question that we will only spin webs in our head trying to find the answer to,and it's funny how atheists ask that because they know believers or Gods people don't have the answer.
We are humans and we are bound by His laws,He is not.We are bound by time,He is not.He is perfect, we are not.Believers or what you call "Holy Rollers" see God through faith,His Word(Holy Bible), and we as people can only understand God through Jesus Christ. As for Muslims....... do not associate their actions with God,anywho i have been away from church for a long time now and my knowledge on the subject escapes me but i still have faith in God and that He is the creator of all things.
"Narrow is the path that leads to righteousness,wide is the path that leads to destruction,small is the gate that leads to life,and only a few find it"
Matthew 7:13-14

Ghost Kat

12-11-2009, 09:44 PM

I asked my brother the same question,and believe me he could put all your theories Kat, about evolution, down.

Believers or what you call "Holy Rollers" see God through faith,His Word(Holy Bible), and we as people can only understand God through Jesus Christ.

As for Muslims....... do not associate their actions with God

Well to my knowledge I haven't actually given my theory, Atleast not in this thread. All I have done is quote scientists and ask questions.

Maybe Holy Rollers was a bad choice of words, But saying Jesus is the only way is a bit bias. Your only a christian by pure luck. If you were born in iraq you'd be a muslim and worship Allah. If you were born a thousand years ago theres a whole host of Gods you could have pray'd to. You just happened to be born to parents of the christian religion at this very point in time, Doesn't make your religion the truth by any means. To be honest Christianity is a carbon copy of about three older forms of worship. They only changed the names of the people in the stories.

What you believe is what you believe and I'm thankful in America you have that very right.

Dunk

12-11-2009, 11:14 PM

There's are some reasons why we would "lose" DNA. Here's a paper on it. Nature can fuse chromosomes together and there are certain reasons why that would happen. There's been nothing that's disproven evolution so far.

http://www.thetech.org/genetics/ask.php?id=229

My point around elephants and birds was that changes can happen quickly. Pretty soon those changes add up to turn something into a new species. There were physical and geographic separations as well as a couple of ice ages in the last 200,000 years. Some folks being isolated for millenia or entire regions being forced to change/adapt can cause major shifts. Notice the diversity of species in Australia, New Zealand, and the Galapagos because of their isolation.

Chrystos

12-11-2009, 11:28 PM

Come on. Everyone knowns that God just farted and the world was created
:bs:

Ghost Kat

12-11-2009, 11:56 PM

There were physical and geographic separations as well as a couple of ice ages in the last 200,000 years. Some folks being isolated for millenia or entire regions being forced to change/adapt can cause major shifts.

I would totally agree if it wasn't for the fact that modern humans as we know them were already around during the second ice age which ended in 10,500 BCE. And like I said before nothing has happened that would be serious and earth shaking enough to change a creatures DNA. I'm not trying to disprove Evolution, As always I'm saying the offical story doesn't make alot of sense if you do a little research. Today we think we know so much, But it wasn't that long ago we thought the world was flat and lighting strikes because God is angry.

I'll read the posted link tomorrow but I'll ask this question in advance, In that link does it mention if other animals have fused chromosomes or is it just humans?

Edited: the horse one was close, But it didn't turn the horse with 23 into something better. We lost two and became better in certain ways. All the examples in that link pretty much stay'd the same basic species.

dnbman

12-12-2009, 03:05 PM

I'm not trying to disprove Evolution, As always I'm saying the offical story doesn't make alot of sense if you do a little research.

That's true. If you do a little research, it probably doesn't make sense. However, if you do a lot of research and find that an immense amount of different kinds of evidence all support evolution, you'd see that it does make sense.

One point about what you've been stating: evolution has nothing to do with making things better. People assume that about evolution because typically we think the strongest survive. However, evolution is actually based on things reproducing, not empirically better traits. To borrow an example from Dawkins, suppose that humans continued at their current birthrates for the next two centuries. A common trend has been for smarter people to have less children and the not as bright people to have more children. So, over a couple of hundred years humans could actually evolve to be dumber than we are now simply because the not as smart people would be passing on their DNA more than the smart people.

Evolution is simply the story of life squeezing its way through specific moments in time. I recommend the book that Dunk suggested: Dawkins' The Greatest Show on Earth.

I have no comment about God, but evolution isn't really up for debate to anyone who has taken the time to unbiasedly understand it.

Keetch

12-12-2009, 05:02 PM

Gud poynts DnBman. Didya know I had 11 or 12 kids by my first wife? Seriously!

One of my fav books like EVER is Dawkin's "The Selfish Gene". Made me think har! Its round hear sumwears.

dnbman

12-12-2009, 05:07 PM

Gud poynts DnBman. Didya know I had 11 or 12 kids by my first wife? Seriously!

One of my fav books like EVER is Dawkin's "The Selfish Gene". Made me think har! Its round hear sumwears.

Keetch, you must have been a big Andy Kaufman fan.

rsxnova

12-13-2009, 03:25 AM

I'm ready to talk about the exetremist that believe Satan put dinosaur bones in the ground.

Dunk

12-13-2009, 08:32 AM

I'm ready to talk about the exetremist that believe Satan put dinosaur bones in the ground.

http://controversy.wearscience.com/img450/devil.gif

I have another shirt from wearscience around the Hindu creation myth. It gets some strange looks. There's a billion of them that believe the earth is flat and sits on two elephants who stand on the back of a turtle. Why not teach that as an "alternative" to evolution since it is only a theory.

Yes, I'm an asshole.

Toocool

12-13-2009, 11:12 AM

God, I have my reasons why.

Anyone remember Evolutionists vs Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron?
The Evolutionists got utterly pwnt.

dnbman

12-13-2009, 11:41 AM

God, I have my reasons why.

Anyone remember Evolutionists vs Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron?
The Evolutionists got utterly pwnt.

Are you serious? I watch that for entertainment purposes only. First, it wasn't much of a debate. The Pastafarians were two obnoxious college kids who were more interested being cool than making a strong argument. Meanwhile, Cameron and Comfort could only produce arguments for the converted. Essentially, if you watch the debate, you believe your side won because they both presented the same mediocre arguments for their sides. Neither side had any experts with any great thought to debate. Second, the reasons Ray gave were huge logical fallacies. There was no evidence for divine creation other than what the story says and his inability to imagine something being in existence without a creator. Of course, the argument begs the question, then how can their be a creator?

Evolution is not in competition with intelligent design. By the standards we would view just about any event in history, evolution is fact. All creatures have clearly evolved. Whether or not a person believes that a God set it in motion is up to that person. Plenty of people believe in both a God and scientific explanations for life. It's not an either/or proposition unless you take a very literal view of the Bible.

Here's what the Pope has to say about it:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19956961/

bing!

12-13-2009, 05:14 PM

Remember how your perception of fairy tales changed as you were growing older? Well, the 'God' myth pretty much follows the same pattern. Don't flame me.

Marvel

12-13-2009, 06:30 PM

Remember how your perception of fairy tales changed as you were growing older? Well, the 'God' myth pretty much follows the same pattern. Don't flame me.

No............not at all,my faith in God is just as strong as it was when i was 6-7 years old,in fact stronger.

Ghost Kat

12-13-2009, 07:53 PM

If you do a little research, it probably doesn't make sense.

Thats a good line, I owe you a + 1, It made me laugh.

Like I said I'm not trying to disprove anything. I think way way back in the 9-11 thread I said if edvidence comes up thats against the offical way of thinking, You'll find all kinds of people popping up out the wood work to shit all over it. Doesn't make that info any less true though. People get paid, Get degree's get respect if they follow along, Not when they ask questions. I believe we are decended from some distant branch of the Ape family tree, So I have no problem what so ever with Evolution. If folk want to believe God did it, Well good for them too.

But...What I'm saying isn't some crazy theory. We know who our ancestors are. But we don't know just how exactly we branched off into who and what we are today. Some strange nature mutation then poof Humans. Well, not that easy. Ape Man up until 250,000 or so years ago. Then people as we know them today 60-40,000 yrs ago.

So...I ask these kinda Questions
If we are 250,000 we are a rather young species on this earth, right? But we come from creatures much older right? Why do we have so many genetic disorders? If we evolved natually, some of those disorders would have died out in the wild. Survival of the fittest, Right? I'm guess you don't believe that. We lived that way for a very long time and still do to some extent. Early in mans history those people with those disorders would have been left to die IMO.

We have diseases like Spina bifida that kill you when your young and doesn't allow you to reproduce. If we evolved naturally those types of problem genes would have been weeded out through natural selection. Why do we have over 4,000 disorders? Ape's don't have that many, They don't even have half as many disorders. If we evolved in a straight line the folk with those genes should and would have died out.

It's a huge jump from monkey to man. Evolution does a great job of explaining when and what could have happened, But not how or why. Intelligent Design has some good points too when questioning evolution but I discredit anything from the banana man Ray " Southern" Comfort. Evolution doesn't explain why if we are 250,000 years old all of a sudden 60,000 years ago we start playing with fire, making tools, and doing common caveman activity. What the hell were we doing before that?

dnbman

12-13-2009, 08:02 PM

=If we evolved naturally those types of problem genes would have been weeded out through natural selection. Why do we have over 4,000 disorders? Ape's don't have that many, They don't even have half as many disorders. If we evolved in a straight line the folk with those genes should and would have died out.

No. That's the common misconception I was addressing with the comment about smart and dumb people reproducing. Evolution has nothing to do with making life better. Evolution is simply what allows the most offspring to survive any given moment. To use an extreme example, let's say that swine flu became much more of a killer than it is now. However, for some reason, people with down syndrome were immune to it. If the swine flu killed everyone but the people with down syndrome, then all of humanity would evolve to have down syndrome because those genes survived while others didn't. Obviously, this example is absurd, but I wanted to make the idea clear.

Also, one of the central parts of evolution is mutation. DNA mutates, for better or worse. Often these mutations are bad, but sometimes they're good. So, while there is roughly a similar gene pool that keeps people fairly similar over generations, there's always the chance that genes can change.

Another way to think about evolution is simply as descriptive, like history, rather than a force making things happen. Just like time continues to pass, so do we continue to evolve. However, unless a species is consciously being evolved, like in breeding, there is no purpose or point to it; no species is moving towards perfection. They are simply existing. Hope that makes sense.

Ghost Kat

12-13-2009, 08:46 PM

To use an extreme example, let's say that swine flu became much more of a killer than it is now. However, for some reason, people with down syndrome were immune to it. If the swine flu killed everyone but the people with down syndrome, then all of humanity would evolve to have down syndrome because those genes survived while others didn't.

Ok I'll use your extreme example to ask this question...How did the disorders i mentioned help people to survive? We have over two dozen disorders that kill people before they get a chance to mature or populate the gene pool. Why are those disorders even still in our gene pool at this point in time?

Ok, certain ones like color blindness or baldness dont hurt a creatures chance of survival and repopulation. But we have 26 or more serious ones that do. Nature does a great job of weeding out problems that hurt the continous survival of a creature. In every other species those mutations are weeded out but not us. There isn't another animal in nature with as many genetic disorders as humans.

dnbman

12-13-2009, 09:31 PM

Ok I'll use your extreme example to ask this question...How did the disorders i mentioned help people to survive? We have over two dozen disorders that kill people before they get a chance to mature or populate the gene pool. Why are those disorders even still in our gene pool at this point in time?

Ok, certain ones like color blindness or baldness dont hurt a creatures chance of survival and repopulation. But we have 26 or more serious ones that do. Nature does a great job of weeding out problems that hurt the continous survival of a creature. In every other species those mutations are weeded out but not us. There isn't another animal in nature with as many genetic disorders as humans.

Humans also are the least reliant on our physical abilities to survive. We can have physically inferior members of the species who survive just fine because we've learned to better take care of our species. (Some species eat their young if they have a defect!) Not to mention, we put a lot more kinds of things in our bodies that can influence mutation. I'm sure there are other reasons as well that I'm just not aware of.

To answer your question about why these disorders still exist, I'll give you a scenario. Imagine there are two people out of 100 who have the recessive trait for a certain genetic disorder. For argument's sake, let's say that the disorder doesn't manifest unless two people with that gene mate, and then it's only a 1 in 4 chance that the disorder manifests. Chances are those two people are going to mate and pass the recessive gene along for a few generations before two people mate that have the recessive gene. So, when that moment does happen, one offspring doesn't make it, but several offspring with the recessive gene now exist. The process continues.

And again, disorders don't have to help people survive. I was just giving you an extreme example to show you that evolution doesn't mean that people are evolving into better creatures. People from Nordic areas of the world often have fairer skin that is more susceptible to sun burn. However, they have other features which allowed them to flourish in those colder areas.

bing!

12-14-2009, 07:18 AM

.. I wish I were an X-Man... :rolleyes:

@dnb & kat - duly proceed

Ghost Kat

12-16-2009, 10:42 AM

Humans also are the least reliant on our physical abilities to survive. We can have physically inferior members of the species who survive just fine because we've learned to better take care of our species.

People from Nordic areas of the world often have fairer skin that is more susceptible to sun burn. However, they have other features which allowed them to flourish in those colder areas.

I think your looking at this question with a modern day mindset. We as so called humans weren't always dependent on technology. In our early caveman days, babies that were disformed or physically inferior couldn't be cared for. There wasn't enough time or resources in our early history. For much of that human history we were a nomadic people. It's hard to care for overly sick people when your always moving an watching out for some random animal that might eat you. The only way man made it this far was by being strong enough to survive. So those types of genes should have died out just like in every other naturally made creature on this planet.

Being albino is a gentic disorder, But even in Africa where mankind started it doesn't stop you from living. I understand how disorders gets passed down from parents the 1 in 4 chances thing....But if we evolved from something older, My common sense tells me alot of these major ones we have should have been killed by natural selection like every other animal.

+ 1 for anyone that can guess my crazy theory :p

dnbman

12-16-2009, 05:00 PM

But if we evolved from something older, My common sense tells me alot of these major ones we have should have been killed by natural selection like every other animal.

No, because a lot of the disorders are mutations, albeit common mutations, of various genes. That's why we have incredibly uncommon issues with people.

I think you're still looking at life as if it were being perfected, with the bad dying off and the good living on. However, as I said earlier, that's not the case.

Think about this way: where did the defects come from? There is no original source because they too evolve and mutate.

Ghost Kat

12-16-2009, 05:34 PM

I think you're still looking at life as if it were being perfected,

Think about this way: where did the defects come from? There is no original source because they too evolve and mutate.

I never said people were perfect or that evolution leads to perfection. What I did say is we humans are better then monkeys or ape man after losing two chromosomes. I also said the nature kills the weak and if you carry bad genes nature weeds them out in every species but humans.

Where the defects may come from I might get into a little later. But I can't tell you for sure, All I can do is make a simi educated guess. As I said before I really don't have a big arguement for evolution, I thought the God folk were going to put up more of a fight. I had all my ammo geared up for them.

We think we know how we evolved and who we evolved from we just have no idea what casued it. The major differences we have with our ancestors doesn't just come from one or two mutations. Humans are a totally different species on that family tree. Neither of us are scientist and we can't say for sure who is right, But just ask yourself what event was big enough to change DNA. To change one creature into another but not big enough to kill off both species, Since both humans and ape's are still here today.

dnbman

12-16-2009, 06:20 PM

I never said people were perfect or that evolution leads to perfection. What I did say is we humans are better then monkeys or ape man after losing two chromosomes.

We're not, though. "Better" is relative to the environment. Right now, we might be better because we're smarter and can manipulate our environment more effectively. However, a disease could wipe us all out, leaving the monkeys and apes alive and kicking. The joke about cockroaches outliving us could be a reality. In that case, they would be evolutionarily superior. The fact that we have designed and created iPods means relatively little in terms of millions of years of species evolving.

I also said the nature kills the weak and if you carry bad genes nature weeds them out in every species but humans.

Yeah, but "weak" is only defined by what is killed. Gnats may be the ultimate weak creature, yet end up being the dominant species because they can survive environments that all others can't. Viruses also fall into this category. Within a species, one trait may be "strong" for a period or a place and "weak" for another.

We think we know how we evolved and who we evolved from we just have no idea what casued it.

Abiogenesis, hominids, or humans? We know that species continually evolve because of a variety of factors. Some of these we can understand about history and some we can merely speculate. However, with overwhelming evidence, we know that evolution from common ancestors happened.

The major differences we have with our ancestors doesn't just come from one or two mutations. Humans are a totally different species on that family tree.[QUOTE]

But, we're not talking about a sudden shift. We're talking about extremely long periods of time with many small changes producing large cumulative change.

[QUOTE]Neither of us are scientist and we can't say for sure who is right, But just ask yourself what event was big enough to change DNA. To change one creature into another but not big enough to kill off both species, Since both humans and ape's are still here today.

Humans didn't evolve FROM modern apes. Modern apes and humans are descendants of a common ancestor that was probably was more ape like than human like.

You're right, neither of us is scientists. However, if you read enough about evolution, the truth becomes pretty clear. We have a massive world collection of fossils, divided among many museums and institutions, that record the evolution of a ton of species. Evolution has passed every falsifiable test that it has encountered. By the methods we would conclude that battles and biographies are facts, we'd have to conclude that evolution is fact also. However, because many people don't understand what a scientific theory is (not an idea, but an explanation of evidence gathered after testing a hypothesis), they think scientists just speculate that evolution is probably what happened. That is not the case.

Dunk

12-16-2009, 06:22 PM

I never said people were perfect or that evolution leads to perfection. What I did say is we humans are better then monkeys or ape man after losing two chromosomes. I also said the nature kills the weak and if you carry bad genes nature weeds them out in every species but humans.

Where the defects may come from I might get into a little later. But I can't tell you for sure, All I can do is make a simi educated guess. As I said before I really don't have a big arguement for evolution, I thought the God folk were going to put up more of a fight. I had all my ammo geared up for them.

We think we know how we evolved and who we evolved from we just have no idea what casued it. The major differences we have with our ancestors doesn't just come from one or two mutations. Humans are a totally different species on that family tree. Neither of us are scientist and we can't say for sure who is right, But just ask yourself what event was big enough to change DNA. To change one creature into another but not big enough to kill off both species, Since both humans and ape's are still here today.

Why would you say we are better? That doesn't make sense. A cockroach has done pretty well for itself but that doesn't mean it's better than any other insect.

There's lots of reasons why evolution would occur, as has been pointed out repeatedly. At this point I'd just have to refer you to some texts (I've read Dawkins The Greatest Show On Earth recently so I'd go with that). If you have a theory then out with out it. Otherwise it's kind of a waste of time at this point. Is it aliens? :)

dnbman

12-16-2009, 06:31 PM

Is it aliens? :)

Speaking of which, if I see one more anti-evolution group use Dawkin's aliens comment from Expelled to say he's an advocate of ID, I'm gonna....

urgghhh...

Ghost Kat

12-17-2009, 10:51 AM

Ghost Kat

12-17-2009, 10:57 AM

For you Godless Atheists......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOfjkl-3SNE

dnbman

12-17-2009, 06:47 PM

I will repeat myself again, I have no...Zero, NO problem with the concept of evolution. Again, Yes, Apes and humans have a common ancestor we evolved from...ok fine....Many types of humaniods and we just happened to be the one that survived...ok fine. Evolution in every other animal fits with Darwins theory. But 250,000 is not a long time when looking at life on the earth. A sudden shift is exactly what we are talking about. If there are no major ELE events changing life on this planet what caused the major mutations they made us "humans" ? A couple mutations doesn't create a new species, You need hundreds.

Dunk....By "better" I mean look at what humans have done with their short time on earth compared to any other species. Now if you feel "better" is the wrong word to use thats fine. How about more advanced, Does that work for you?

Now if we didn't evolve from Apes,We both came from the same creature, thats fine. But we are both here today. You didn't answer my question, What was big event to change our DNA into a whole new species but not kill off both of us? Your saying mutations and such happen over a slow period of time. Is 190,000 yrs long enough in you mind? Since we modern humans are 250,000 but didn't start making tools and what not till 60-40,000 yrs ago so say scentists. Thats alot of mutations to put us where we stand now.

If you haven't guessed by now, Yes I think it was Aliens. I have way more edvidence for that theory then some random Darwin quote.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolutionary_genetics

We're not genetically that different, so there didn't need to be some big event that caused us to evolve. However, those small differences in the development of the brain have allowed us to think abstractly, which is basically what allows us to conceive of numbers, letters, and other symbols. At that point, we could begin to share and record ideas, allowing us to build on prior generations' knowledge.

As for your comments about the use of tools, look at the difference between modern life and life just a few thousand years ago. 10,000 years ago, most of the world was living in hunter-gatherer societies, a way of life not much different than other animals, and we did that for 2 million years with the ascent of Homo Habilis.

ohara831

12-17-2009, 06:48 PM

One thing I believe in is this: Never discuss in depth religion and politics with friends, as it has the potential to destroy friendships, and often does. That said, things look very civil in this discussion, and I am impressed with that fact. In fact, happy about it. So I will go against my better judgement and please forgive me if I offend anyone.

I believe in God, in Jesus, and in the creation of the Earth by God. I believe that a Day in God's eyes may be millions of years in our time. So I have no problem with seeing evolution and Creationism both having truth. I believe we can evolve in small ways as was mentioned earlier by another. Animals have, why not humans? What is most interesting to me is how to some it is very obvious there is no God, and to others it is very obvious that there is a God. The beauty of it is that, as I believe, God gave us "free will". Free will to beleive or not to believe. To follow his commandments or not. And for most, that will only be answered as they take their final breath. As for the Evil side, I believe in that as well. How else can you have a small city like Jerusalem be the Home to the 3 major religions and cause such anxiety in the world. Good plan by the Evil side, but in the end, I think Truth always prevails. Again, it comes down to free will.

I will give one example in my life as to why I believe. My being here today is all the proof I need. When I was 17 (now I'm 44) I was a party guy in High School. Drank alot with friends at parties and thought I was an indestructible bada$$. One night, coming home very drunk from a party, I was going down a hill and I had a U turn bend to make and then to go up a long hill 1/2 long. Starting into the turn, I ran off the road, knew I was going too fast and I was going to go into trees and into a creek. I took my hands off the steering wheel and covered my face for impact. Seconds later, after no impact, I opened my eyes and put my hands on the steering wheel. I was at the top of that hill 1/2 mile from where I should have been dead or at least badly injured. How? The ONLY answer is my guardian angel. No other explanation exists. God had a plan for me, and dying that night was not it.

Since that night, I have not been the most righteous person, but I think I have been good. I try to be a good person, dont hold grudges, forgive others and always ask for forgiveness if I have done something to hurt or offend. I have been very fortunate in life, and I try to use that to help as many people as possible. Life is a great journey to be enjoyed. And when I take my last breath on this Earth, I will know that the greater journey is just beginning.

Ghost Kat

12-18-2009, 10:31 AM

We're not genetically that different, so there didn't need to be some big event that caused us to evolve.

[/QUOTE]and we did that for 2 million years with the ascent of Homo Habilis.[/QUOTE]

dnbman

12-18-2009, 10:42 AM

and we did that for 2 million years with the ascent of Homo Habilis.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

I'm not sure what this post was. Did you see a contradiction? For two million years, Homo Habilis is slowly evolving to be the hunter gatherers of modern man. We see apes and chimps doing such things now too. Then we start abstract language, which allows the society to quickly change.

I don't see any contradictions or issues.

Ghost Kat

12-18-2009, 10:49 AM

Part 1

We're not genetically that different, so there didn't need to be some big event that caused us to evolve.

Homo antecessor

The most astonishing fact to tear up the imaginary tree of life by its very roots is the way that Homo sapiens dates back to unexpectedly early times. Paleontological findings show that human beings identical to the H. sapiens were living nearly a million years ago.
The findings on this subject199 (http://www.bobcatsplanet.com/vb/showthread.php?p=147167#dipnot) were rejected by some evolutionist paleoanthropologists, because of their damaging implications for the evolutionary family tree. One fossil discovered in Atapuerca in Spain in 1995 revealed in a most striking manner that H. sapiens was far older than had been thought. (See Atapuerca.) This fossil indicated that the history of H. sapiens needed to be put back to at least 800,000 years ago. However, once they had got over their initial shock, evolutionists decided that the fossil belonged to a different species, because—according to the evolutionary family tree—H. sapiens could not have been alive 800,000 years ago. They therefore came up with an imaginary species known as Homo antecessor, to which they ascribed the Atapuerca skull.

http://www.harunyahya.com/books/darwinism/evolution_impasse/impasse8.php

There is an enormous gulf between Homo erectus, a human race, and the apes that precede it (Australopithecus, Homo habilis, H. rudolfensis) in the scenario of human evolution. In other words, the first humans to appear in the fossil records emerged suddenly, all at the same time, and in the absence of any process of evolution. There could be no clearer indication that they were created.
However, acceptance of this fact would constitute a violation of evolutionists’ dogmatic philosophies and ideologies. Therefore, they seek to depict H. erectus, a human race, as a semi-ape. That is why they insist on giving H. erectus an ape-like appearance in the reconstructions they produce. (For detailed information, see The Evolution Deceit by Harun Yahya.)

and we did that for 2 million years with the ascent of Homo Habilis.
Homo habilis, which means “tool-using human,” H. habilis shared a great many characteristics with the apes known as Australopithecus.

The fact that Australopithecus is nearly identical to chimpanzees in terms of their skull and skeletal structures, plus the emergence of concrete evidence that demolished the claim that these creatures walked upright, left evolutionist paleoanthropologists in a rather difficult position. Because Australopithecus is followed by Homo erectus in the imaginary course of evolution.

Homo sapiens

The history of Homo sapiens, which represents modern man on the imaginary evolutionary family tree, goes back much further than evolutionists expected. Paleontological findings indicate that human beings identical to us were alive nearly a million years ago.
One of the discoveries in this regard is a fossil found in the Atapuerca region of Spain. The fact that this fossil has the same characteristics to those of modern man rocked evolutionist beliefs regarding the evolution of man. Because according to the evolutionary family tree, no Homo sapiens should have lived 800,000 years ago.
Indeed, many findings showed that H. sapiens goes back even further than 800,000 years. One of these was the discoveries made in Olduvai Gorge by Louis Leakey in the early 1970s. Leakey determined in the Bed II stratum that Australopithecus, Homo habilis and H. erectus had all lived there together and at the same time.
However, the really interesting thing was a structure—the remains of a stone hut—found by Leakey in that same stratum (Bed II). Its most interesting aspect was that such a structure, which is still in use in some African regions today, could have been made only by Homo sapiens! According to Leakey’s findings, Australopithecus, Homo habilis, H. erectus and modern man must all have been living together around 1.7 million years ago.209 (http://www.bobcatsplanet.com/vb/showthread.php?p=147167#dipnot)This fact of course invalidates the theory of evolution that maintains that modern human beings evolved from the monkeys described asAustralopithecus.
and ape-like skeletal structure. Its fingers and toes were suited to climbing. Its jaw structure completely resembles that of modern apes. Its 500-cubic-centimeter brain size was the best indication that it was in fact an ape. In short, H. habilis, portrayed as a separate species by some evolutionists, was actually an ape just like all other Australopithecus

http://www.harunyahya.com/books/darwinism/evolution_impasse/impasse8.php

Ghost Kat

12-18-2009, 10:50 AM

and we did that for 2 million years with the ascent of Homo Habilis.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure what this post was.[/QUOTE]

Thats my fault I messed up what I was trying to do

Oh Look:kingofpop:

Ghost Kat

12-18-2009, 10:56 AM

dnbman

12-18-2009, 03:16 PM

Part 2

The “Head-scratching” Discovery

It was here, in tracing the vertical evolutionary record contained in the human and the other analyzed genomes, that the scientists ran into an enigma. The “head-scratching discovery by the public consortium,” as Science termed it, was that the human genome contains 223 genes that do not have the required predecessors on the genomic evolutionary tree.

http://www.world-mysteries.com/sci_1.htm

HOW DID 223 UNEXPLAINED GENES
FIND THEIR WAY INTO OUR DNA?

http://www.fromthestars.com/page162.htmlt

Most of this is pseudoscience, much like "irreducible complexity." These guys take a few scientific ideas and then draw conclusions that are either falsified or untestable. Find any reputable scientific journal that supports Sitchin's views.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zecharia_Sitchin

and Yahya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harun_Yahya#Campaign_against_evolution

These guys either accidentally or purposefully avoid information and data that contradict their arguments. Moreover, they begin with a premise and simply seek evidence that supports their view rather than the truth. Scientists, on the other hand, spend a great deal of their time running tests to falsify hypotheses so that they can slowly chip away the ideas that don't work.

Ghost Kat

12-18-2009, 08:27 PM

Most of this is pseudoscience, much like "irreducible complexity." These guys take a few scientific ideas and then draw conclusions that are either falsified or untestable. Find any reputable scientific journal that supports Sitchin's views.

Like I said I'm not trying to disprove anything. I think way way back in the 9-11 thread I said if edvidence comes up thats against the offical way of thinking, You'll find all kinds of people popping up out the wood work to shit all over it.

Man, that dude's a nut.
this cracked me up BTW

Thats what they always say when the offical word is questioned

I'd like to point out no one has ever disproven what he has said. Physic's are Phyisc's right, No one answered his very good questions they just said he was a "nut" and turned their back on him. Why is that? When your the only one sounding a alarm no one wants to help stand in the fire with you, Do they?

These guys either accidentally or purposefully avoid information and data that contradict their arguments. Moreover, they begin with a premise and simply seek evidence that supports their view rather than the truth.

Look what you did...You attacked the messager not the message. Did they or did not find Modern Human skeletons at levels in the ground where they shouldn't be...Yes. They have found them all over the world, Even right here in America. Are there questions about supposed transition skeletons of our ancestors...Yes. All the old ape man bones are just that ape man bones. Not human bones or DNA.... Are there questions about why we have a random 223 genes that no other animals has?...Yes...See above as to why more people don't ask those questions louder.

I said before when bones like these are found Scientist for what ever reason have either help cover up the find or paint it in a picture that fits common theory. Why? Thats how you keep your job. The how you get your degree. Thats how you keep people from calling you a nut and pseudosciencist. What is pseudoscience really? Science is Science, We are all just trying to learn and get a better picture on what life is. Saying the earth wasn't flat was pseudoscience at one point in our history, But that might be an extreme example but it's still science.

Ghost Kat

12-18-2009, 09:02 PM

dnbman

12-19-2009, 12:22 AM

you did...You attacked the messager not the message. Did they or did not find Modern Human skeletons at levels in the ground where they shouldn't be...Yes. They have found them all over the world, Even right here in America. Are there questions about supposed transition skeletons of our ancestors...Yes. All the old ape man bones are just that ape man bones. Not human bones or DNA.... Are there questions about why we have a random 223 genes that no other animals has?...Yes...See above as to why more people don't ask those questions louder.

What skeletons in places they weren't supposed to find them?

As for the questions about the transition skeletons, there are questions, but none that question the validity of evolution. Again, we have a ton of skeletons and bones that show the transitions. However, there will always be gaps in between skeletons, but these gaps continually get smaller and smaller. (This argument is the equivalent of saying there is a gap between 1,000,000 and 1,000,001)

As for this 223 genes thing, I have no idea, as I can't find many legitimate science articles that talk about it. However, the science community depends on the various fields getting things right so that the others can advance. I doubt very seriously that if the 223 gene question was a legitimate concern of the theory (rather than simply something that needed to be figured, which is different than a defect to a theory) some legitimate group of scientists wouldn't be working on it.

I understand thought that you believe there is a lot of cover up of various activities. My view is simply that we see evolution around us, we can make animals evolve through breeding, and mainstream science all supports the theory. This science is not pseudo-science because it goes through a process of falsification and peer review that is brutal because, again, main stream science (and all of humanity, for that matter) relies on all of the branches doing sound research. Now, what doesn't mean there are things they don't know or understand, like the presumed unifying theory that will unite the two models of physics.

To sum up, questions does not imply holes. When a guy has a clear agenda (alien explanation or creationism) and uses a handful of facts out of context, I definitely question it a lot more than an unexplained idea from the science community as a whole, whose work all depends on honest research.

jam

12-19-2009, 05:57 AM

i believe in God i believe that Jesus Christ is my saviour ,and the holy spirit is guiding us everyday.

Woodsy23

12-19-2009, 02:28 PM

if Evolution occurred then that means there must be other life forms out there however if we're the only planet with life forms then its more than likely God created us. The fact of the matter is humans have a hunger for knowledge and they won't stop looking meaning one of these days we're gonna find out something we don't want to know. Sometimes its better to stop looking because certain things open up more questions than answers. :g:

dnbman

12-19-2009, 04:30 PM

if Evolution occurred then that means there must be other life forms out there however if we're the only planet with life forms then its more than likely God created us.

Why do you think it means God created us if we're the only planet with life forms? It seems strange that God would make a vast universe to only populate one infinitesimally small part of it.

I don't think there is a logical argument to God creating or not creating the universe. Either God did or didn't and the only way we will know for sure is if he directly reveals himself to us. Otherwise, belief in God is merely faith. Whether or not you believe that an instant or message was divinely inspired is a matter of faith. There is nothing verifiable about it. Martin Luther said as much.

Given that it's a matter of faith, one interesting idea is that you can believe in the observable facts of the world AND have faith; you can have evolution and God. It's only when mankind tries to prove beyond belief that God exists that reason and evidence must be cast aside. Yet, if God wanted to be prove to all that he exists, surely he would do so.

The fact of the matter is humans have a hunger for knowledge and they won't stop looking meaning one of these days we're gonna find out something we don't want to know. Sometimes its better to stop looking because certain things open up more questions than answers. :g:

Faust?

Woodsy23

12-19-2009, 05:54 PM

Why do you think it means God created us if we're the only planet with life forms?

Faust?

1) if we came from evolution and out of the billions+ of planets we're the only one that became inhabited then we've been put here...

2) haha i wasnt initially thinking that but yknoww :biggrin: i was thinking more along the lines of finding out there isn't a God pretty much makes our lives pointless? :g:

Woodsy23

12-19-2009, 05:56 PM

by billions i meant trillions.

Ghost Kat

12-19-2009, 06:41 PM

What skeletons in places they weren't supposed to find them?

I will find you a couple, I'm not in the mood to hunt right now. The american ones were found in the early 1900's. But people have found skeletons in Africa at levels in the ground that date back way past were modern science says humans should be.

As for the questions about the transition skeletons, there are questions, but none that question the validity of evolution. Again, we have a ton of skeletons and bones that show the transitions.

Monkey Bones....

If nothing else everything points to evolution, Because your only other answer to these questionable facts is God or Aliens.

As for this 223 genes thing, I have no idea, as I can't find many legitimate science articles that talk about it.

You won't find much written about things they have no answer for. To be honest I don't remember much about it. Just a question I remembered from one of my classes in my younger days.

To sum up, questions does not imply holes. When a guy has a clear agenda (alien explanation or creationism) and uses a handful of facts out of context

Thats why you, an outsider, take those facts and believe what makes sense to you. Look it up for your self. Then make the choice from there. I listen to everyones side and use my "God" given common sense. Now I don't think everything is some big cover up. I pick and choose which ones makes the most sense to me. Just like with everything else. The control of knowledge is power. The info is out there,but if it isn't common theory it doesn't get talked about. Kinda like Intelligent Design being taught in schools. It goes against common theory. Teachers taught from an accepted curriculum when I was in school, Same as you today. They don't talk about 9/11 being a inside job, But millions of people round the country have a question about the Govt and their actions at the time. They don't talk about Bigfoot being real about there's some pretty good edvidence that there is an above 50 % chance it's real. Just believe what makes sense to you.

Ghost Kat

12-20-2009, 02:44 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nne_-j08yMo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hueyatlaco

http://www.s8int.com/hueyatlaco.html

Not bones, but still a cover up.

Dunk

12-22-2009, 07:57 AM

They didn't use carbon dating on the hueyatlaco site and instead dated the rocks on a flood plain. I understand they're retesting it.

There haven't been any fossils found, ever, where they weren't expected to be.

One of the guys you cited is the publisher of this:

http://shirhashirim.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/yahya_lure2.jpg

Yes...a fishing lure used to talk about evolution. Not exactly credible.

Show me a peer reviewed paper disproving it and I'll believe some sort of outside interference or whatever. But other than that it's just conspiracy theory stuff. There's a process to how presenting evidence and getting it accepted works.

bing!

12-22-2009, 03:56 PM

I trust that powers that be are closely monitoring this thread... better mask my IP and lay low.

Ghost Kat

12-26-2009, 03:34 PM

They didn't use carbon dating on the hueyatlaco site and instead dated the rocks on a flood plain. I understand they're retesting it.

Yes, Far as I know she did use carbon dating. She used four different methods of dating total. Yes, They are retesting it, and again, far as i know, Her timeline hasn't been proven wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W02ruvNln9Q
Start at 1:00

There haven't been any fossils found, ever, where they weren't expected to be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3UWSfj4YjM

When I remember the name of the guy I'm thinking of that made the find in Africa I'll look him up and post the info. But never finding bones where they shouldn't be?? Thats not true, I'm looking up some stuff on Giants in ancient times. There are plenty of cases where bones are found where they shouldn't be ( exp: inside Coal Mounts.) and then randomly "lost" or stolen. Then people forget about it altogether, Or just dismiss the find altogether.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_%28mythology%29#Giant_Human_Remains

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P42j9Xltyg

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/hiddenhistory/hiddenhistory07.htm

All these bones were found in places they shouldn't be.
Modern Human bones....

http://www.burlingtonnews.net/giantscalifornia.html

In Lovelock, Nevada there are two museums totally about the finds, But the bones have magically disappeared.Still have tours today at the Humboldt Museum at Winnemucca Nevada and in the Nevada State Historical Society's museum at Reno.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Human-Giants
Skeletons were found inside Table Mountain, California by gold hunters in the early 1950's (I think).

Mummies in the Grand Canyon
http://www.crystalinks.com/gc_egyptconnection.html

http://www.hecklerspray.com/awesome-or-off-putting-kinkaids-ancient-egyptian-grand-canyon-cave/200813431.php

Ghost Kat

12-27-2009, 09:52 AM

I have questions for the Religious interacting in this debate.....

Did God have a choice??
Meaning of all the places in the universe, He chose to put Earth right here. He put all the stars and galaxies right where he wanted. Right? So the fact that this planet has been hit numerous by asteroids, Solar flares, Pole shifts, earthquakes, Etc. destoring life on this planet, Thats all part of Gods plan? Couldn't he have put his beloved humans on a safer better planet?

Why is your God the "true" God?
I can understand believing in God or a Creator figure, But why believe this creator had a son? There are stories all through our history of great men having one mortal parent and one "godly" parent. What makes them bastard kids and Jesus the rightful heir?

Religion of Peace?
Seriously? Every religion protests they are peaceful, But I am willing to bet more people have been killed in the name of God then any other reason in our history. God must enjoy seeing his kids fight. The usual excuse is that it was in the past or some else's religion doing the killing. People view their own religion with eye's wide shut.

Genesis 1:26
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1:26&version=NIV

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [a (http://www.bobcatsplanet.com/vb/#fen-NIV-26a)] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.

Us?? Our?? God is one
Who is this Us & Our?
Aliens......
I'll explain in the next post

teej

12-27-2009, 02:52 PM

@Kat:

Sure God had a choice. I don't know enough about other planets outside our solar system, but I've read earth is the only one capable of sustaining life. I believe God left everything alone after creation as far as the laws of science go, so asteriods and such are consistent with that. If you follow the Creation story, no massive disaster has occured because of our location since we arrived.

Only way I can answer that part is faith. I think that's the whole point. But I don't have a well thought out answer to sway the masses here, it's all about faith.

Those who use religion as an excuse for violence, whether it be Muslim terrorists, Christians bombing abortion clinics, or anything else, they are not what true belief is about, and most, if not all, in the ministry stand against what they do. Make sense? Think George Bush being the face of America for 8 years. That's what it's like to Christians when a so-called religious person uses God to benefit themselves. We feel embarassed and upset. That help?

Us, our, etc. refers to the Trinity. The three-in-one. You know what I'm talking about?

Ghost Kat

12-29-2009, 12:15 PM

I've read earth is the only one capable of sustaining life.

Thats kinda my point, If God created everything why make one planet, in the middle of no where, that sustains life on only half of it's surface. Plus we humans can only live in certain parts on the planet during certain parts of the year. This planet tries to kill us every year. Earthquakes, Mudd slides, droughts,hurricanes, floods

Only way I can answer that part is faith. I think that's the whole point. But I don't have a well thought out answer to sway the masses here, it's all about faith.

I agree, But you have to admit Faith also brings us suicide bombers,abortion clinic bombings, racial and sexual assults or murder, gay bashing and faith on faith warfare.

Us, our, etc. refers to the Trinity. The three-in-one. You know what I'm talking about?

Not really, I don't think I understand. Ok you have God, The creator. Jesus, He's son or earth bound incarnation of God.The Holy ghost or Soul right? But all that is suppose to be God, right? One.... why would one "person" say Let us create man in our image? I know you were just throwing something out to try and answer me, But really think about it. Does that make sense?

Ghost Kat

12-29-2009, 12:40 PM

Alien Time!!!

Ok here's why I think Aliens had something to do with Mankind instead of random evolution and a God who creates EVERYTHING and listens to prayers, saves souls and what not.

Since the earliest record history we have stories and "Gods" coming down from the sky and creating mankind. Each religion has different ways of creation or reasons for creation, but they all have the "Sky God" in common. Aborigines, Anicent african trides, and other cave drawings showing creatures today we would call Grey's. Big Head , Big eye's oval head. What gave them the idea to draw that? Back then they only pantied what they saw. animals they hunted, family that died, stuff like that. They have some that show people hovering over others below inside platforms that look like what today we would assume to be planes or spaceships.

Whats makes people round the world paints something like that in early early history? I think They made many vivits maybe just to check up on us. All those mutations I was talking about could be caused by genetic manipulation. The Aliens idea explains the "sky Gods" and why early man would worship them. I'm ready to debate the 3rd option of this thread.

Other

Crazy Theory I have no edvidence for and don't really believe but it would be cool if it was true. Ok, Dinosaurs were around for millions of years. What if some evolved like Humans supposely evolved and reached the same status of intelligence or better. Left the planet, Came back only to find the planet they knew gone after the asteroid hit. They see Ape man, like him, and make a pet or a worker or whatever. They teach them a couple things, earth gets wiped out again, they leave again. Probably to come back again.

What you think?

Marvel

12-29-2009, 02:35 PM

Marvel

12-29-2009, 03:04 PM

Don't you find it funny though how when natural disasters occur people start realising God or they start talking about "why would God do this" yet the very reason we are intertwined with Earths disasters is because of US, and from the very beginning it has always been US not God who are responsible that these earthquakes or floods even exist today.All these disasters are the result of our sin.If there was no sin there would not have been a flood(Noahs Ark),since that flood the earths environment has changed and the disasters that occur today are offset because of that flood.

Us?? Our?? God is one
Who is this Us & Our?

God has always had "Angels" with Him, i'm not completely sure on that one but from what i can remember that is who the scripture is talking about

Ghost Kat

12-29-2009, 03:32 PM

Faith in what......suicide bombers have faith in Muhammed or Allah your comments on sexual assaults and murder are just plain silly.

Faith in what your holy book says and teaching are true. I'm guessing you don't think Allah is the same as God. Even though much of Islam is taken from the Bible and the bible is taken from the Jewish Torah. They all worship one creator God.

Lets start with Murder: does it or does it not say in the christian bible that homosexuals should be stoned to death?
Leviticus 20:13, Leviticus 18: 21-24

Thats one example and thats Murder, You need more?

The people who burned witches, lynched black people, started the crusades, multiple "inquisitions", wiped out Native Americans, Those people were all highly "religious" and found plenty of preachers and passages in their bible to make them believe they were right.

Jefferson Davis, Confederate leader and President said, “ Slavery is a decree from almighty God himself. It is sanctioned in both Testaments from Genesis to Revelations”

Random Question
Who gave birth to Cain’s Wife? Who gave birth to Seth’s Wife?

Side Note: If it was a sister, Why does God condemn incest in the rest of the bible? Why couldn’t God just make more people?

+1 to anyone who can answer

Marvel

12-29-2009, 03:40 PM

Faith in what your holy book says and teaching are true. I'm guessing you don't think Allah is the same as God. Even though much of Islam is taken from the Bible and the bible is taken from the Jewish Torah. They all worship one creator God.

Lets start with Murder: does it or does it not say in the christian bible that homosexuals should be stoned to death?
Leviticus 20:13, Leviticus 18: 21-24

Thats one example and thats Murder, You need more?

The people who burned witches, lynched black people, started the crusades, multiple "inquisitions", wiped out Native Americans, Those people were all highly "religious" and found plenty of preachers and passages in their bible to make them believe they were right.

Jefferson Davis, Confederate leader and President said, “ Slavery is a decree from almighty God himself. It is sanctioned in both Testaments from Genesis to Revelations”

Random Question
Who gave birth to Cain’s Wife? Who gave birth to Seth’s Wife?

Side Note: If it was a sister, Why does God condemn incest in the rest of the bible? Why couldn’t God just make more people?

+1 to anyone who can answer

I have to go out for a while........ "I'll be buck" to answer your questions

Ghost Kat

12-29-2009, 03:49 PM

US not God who are responsible that these earthquakes or floods even exist today.All these disasters are the result of our sin.If there was no sin there would not have been a flood

I really want to keep this civil, But when people say things like this it reminds me of when Fred Phelps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps) said God sent the Katrina flood to kill gay people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Katrina_fringe_theories#Assertions_of_su pernatural_causation

God has always had "Angels" with Him, i'm not completely sure on that one but from what i can remember that is who the scripture is talking about

Really? The angels didn't help make us. I don't think it says we are made in Gods image,plus the angels too. If God created the angels 1st I doubt he needs their help making mankind.

teej

12-29-2009, 04:42 PM

Thats kinda my point, If God created everything why make one planet, in the middle of no where, that sustains life on only half of it's surface. Plus we humans can only live in certain parts on the planet during certain parts of the year. This planet tries to kill us every year. Earthquakes, Mudd slides, droughts,hurricanes, floods

This is where he created the earth, and then left it alone. Everything you see as far as natural disaters has a perfect scientific explanation. Marvel, I don't think God decides to send natural disasters as a result of sin. There are two documented cases, both in the old Testament. One is of the "Great Flood" which wipes out all man kind except Noah and his family (and I'll be back to that in a minute, Kat.) and the other is the "removal" of Sodom and Gomorrah. But you see that much more socially deviant places like Rome were never destroyed by natural disaster. Note that they also weren't around in the old Testament.

I agree, But you have to admit Faith also brings us suicide bombers,abortion clinic bombings, racial and sexual assults or murder, gay bashing and faith on faith warfare.

Sure, but there are plenty of non-religious assualts, murders, and other issues. And this is all back to my George Bush comment.

Not really, I don't think I understand. Ok you have God, The creator. Jesus, He's son or earth bound incarnation of God.The Holy ghost or Soul right? But all that is suppose to be God, right? One.... why would one "person" say Let us create man in our image? I know you were just throwing something out to try and answer me, But really think about it. Does that make sense?

Okay. Here goes. It makes sense to me, no clue if it will translate. The trinty is this: God the Father, His Son, and the Holy Ghost/Spirit. There are multiple cases where "God" talks as "us" or "we" instead of "I" and that's why, at least in the Christian part. I have no clue about the Muslim or Jewish translations, though I think the Jews have the Trinity as well.

Lets start with Murder: does it or does it not say in the christian bible that homosexuals should be stoned to death?
Leviticus 20:13, Leviticus 18: 21-24

Thats one example and thats Murder, You need more?

At this time, death by stoning was the ruling for most lawbreakers, or even for those who hadn't. Children could be stoned (in or out of religious societies) for not obeying their parents, soldiers could be stoned for not following orders, and the King could have public stonings if he wanted for any reason. Not as big of a deal then as it seems now.

The people who burned witches, lynched black people, started the crusades, multiple "inquisitions", wiped out Native Americans, Those people were all highly "religious" and found plenty of preachers and passages in their bible to make them believe they were right.

Pretty much all of those were about power, money, or both. And I daresay that many who ordered those were not nearly as religious as their subjects. But once again, these people weren't truly using the Bible. That was just the only way they could convince people to follow them.

Jefferson Davis, Confederate leader and President said, “ Slavery is a decree from almighty God himself. It is sanctioned in both Testaments from Genesis to Revelations”

And he would be wrong. It was never ok for there to be slaves.

Random Question
Who gave birth to Cain’s Wife? Who gave birth to Seth’s Wife?

Side Note: If it was a sister, Why does God condemn incest in the rest of the bible? Why couldn’t God just make more people?

+1 to anyone who can answer

I'm pretty suretheir wives were also Adam and Eve's children.

And incest is only allowed in cases of repopulation (after the flood, Adam and Eve, etc.) where there is literally no other option. Technically, whether you believe in pure evolution or pure creation, we're all related anyway. But if there is a more distant option than immediate family, you have to choose that.

That help?

Dunk

12-29-2009, 04:58 PM

Regarding slavery: there's actually numerous passages in the Bible supporting it. In fact, it was argued by many during the Civil War - politicians and preachers alike - that it was ethical and 'God's Will'.

This site has some atheist sarcasm and POV but cites specific chapter and verse supporting the argument.

http://whydoesgodhateamputees.com/god13.htm

teej

12-29-2009, 05:09 PM

Ghost Kat

12-29-2009, 06:41 PM

I'll touch on Slavery first and agree with Teej that slavery from Biblical days isn't the same as American slavery. But the point was where did they get the idea it was ok to "own" another? It just morphed into something horrible when people realized they could make a profit.

I knew the "in the old days" arguement was going to come up about the old testament. But people in modern times take that verse and teaching to heart. Couple years ago in Texas a guy walked into a Gay bar and shoot about six people before being tackled. He told the police "God hates Fags". I'm not gay but I believe in civil rights. Mormons up until 1965-70's taught that being black (Sons of Ham ) was a curse from God. Muslims teach their women if you dont wear the outfit, you get stoned to death or have acid thrown in your face.

Can we really keep blaming the shepherds when it's the sheep that follow so easily. They commit most of these horrible acts against mankind, with out even questioning if its morally right. You can't have religion without both sides and it's all in the name of God.

I know faith in God makes life easy on people. Thinking something greater then themselves is out there looking after them. But we can't use the one bad egg excuse when it's been going on for centuries

Chef

12-29-2009, 06:46 PM

Dunk: I'm sure you've heard of the phrase "When in Rome..."

Slaves were, as mentioned in those passages, really just indentured servants. Many of them were criminals or came from conquered lands, and after their service time, were set free.

As for what Jesus did, he never took on the Romans for anything, be it taxes, slavery, etc. He did what the slave asked him to do, and I don't see why that's an issue.

The modern day connotation of slavery is much different from what it was in "Bible times" so I'm not going to get into a debate over the technicalities other than the site you gave, while informative, took things out of context (as is usual for non or anti-religious sites).

This is the same rationale used by white supremacists who cite that Africans started the slave trade by selling their own peoples into slavery. Usually this is followed by a statement like "this shows how dumb/ignorant/inferior/sneaky/disloyal etc...." When in fact the inter-African slave trade was more of a spoils of war, go live with the other tribe as a lower member, reproduce etc. Not the de-humanizing practice it was in America. The American slave trade actually started as more of an indentured servant practice (more of the traditional slavery) but evolved into a much more harsh practice once the south realized their economy was based on it and they were running out of indentured servants and only escalated with the end of the West African slave trade and the escalating North/South governmental conflicts.

Either way, just wanted to say that most of the examples against religion are citing man's misuse of religion to manipulate others for worldly power or greed, when the overwhelming majority of those who practice and follow religions get immense fullfillment from them and use them to better the world.

Marvel

12-29-2009, 07:47 PM

Ok Teej what i was saying and this is a fact was that the flood was a result of our sins,God had to clean the earth from sin.The flood itself bought about changes to the earths environment which eventually resulted in what we know today as natural disasters such as volcanic eruptions,tidal waves,earthquakes and so on.I'm not saying that God is still the cause of todays natural disasters and that he is punishing us for our sins today.

Faith in what your holy book says and teaching are true. I'm guessing you don't think Allah is the same as God. Even though much of Islam is taken from the Bible and the bible is taken from the Jewish Torah. They all worship one creator God.

wow.........Allah and Islam and Jewish Torah are religions i don't know much about at all.Murder..........God did not intend nor did he say to Cain "hey Cain murder Abel for me" that would be stupid,for man to murder it's called freewill and Cain murdered Abel of his own freewill.
As for slavery, slaves were Gods way of using men who were weak, there is a certain character trait in slaves that God could manifest in ways to make Kings and rulers or authorities fall.For example how he used Job and Moses and King David to overcome slavery and by using these prophets/slaves it was a way to show the Kings,rulers from that time, that God does exist and he is the King of Kings.

I really want to keep this civil, But when people say things like this it reminds me of when Fred Phelps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps) said God sent the Katrina flood to kill gay people.

lol Fred who?

Ghost Kat

12-29-2009, 08:21 PM

God did not intend nor did he say to Cain "hey Cain murder Abel for me" that would be stupid
Really?
Genesis 22 1-2: He wanted him to kill his own son, But changed his mind at the last minute.

Exodus 32: 26-28, Numbers 25: 4-13, Numbers 21: 21-35, Deuteronomy 2 30-34. Need more? Bible is full of God telling people to kill other people.

As for slavery, slaves were Gods way of using men who were weak

This sentence made my heart stop. I don't know what point you were trying to make but you failed.

lol Fred who?

You can click his name or the click below, You might want to read it your starting to sound like him. Don't go down that path of hate.

teej

12-29-2009, 08:29 PM

most of the examples against religion are citing man's misuse of religion to manipulate others for worldly power or greed, when the overwhelming majority of those who practice and follow religions get immense fullfillment from them and use them to better the world.

Exactly. Religion is taking advantage of more than the town whore.

And kat, those who use the old Testament as an excuse for their ludicrous actions are no better than the scum of the earth. If they sat for one minute to read the words of Jesus, they'd realize that he loves all, no matter what they do or how they live their lives, and that he loves gays as much as straights, murderers as much as pastors, and politicians as much as volunteer firemen.

Marvel, slavery has nothing to do with the weak or strong, you'll notice that most slaves, if given a fair fight, could defeat their masters.

Kat, you first example about telling one to kill his son is a test of faith, God never planned on having the son killed. As for other instances, I don't have time to look them all up, but they are all in the first 5 books of the Bible, which is the same period where eating the wrong food got you killed.

Chef

12-29-2009, 08:40 PM

Really?
Genesis 22 1-2: He wanted him to kill his own son, But changed his mind at the last minute.

Exodus 32: 26-28, Numbers 25: 4-13, Numbers 21: 21-35, Deuteronomy 2 30-34. Need more? Bible is full of God telling people to kill other people.

This is not the whole story. Cain had developed such a love for his son, that he began to put his son above god. God commanded him to kill his son to test his faith. Cain prayed and prayed that he would not have to do it, but God continued to say he had to do it. Cain had to drag his son up the hill and onto the stone altar. At the very last minute, as Cain's hand was on the downward path, God stopped it. Now that Cain had put God above the one he had loved the most, his life and life with his son was fulfilled.

Marvel

12-29-2009, 08:49 PM

Really?
Genesis 22 1-2: He wanted him to kill his own son, But changed his mind at the last minute.

Exodus 32: 26-28, Numbers 25: 4-13, Numbers 21: 21-35, Deuteronomy 2 30-34. Need more? Bible is full of God telling people to kill other people.

This sentence made my heart stop. I don't know what point you were trying to make but you failed.

You can click his name or the click below, You might want to read it your starting to sound like him. Don't go down that path of hate.

Dude hate....don't associate me with some guy called Fred i don't see where you're getting this hate from.My point with the slaves is if you read Exodus God used Moses to free the slaves from Pharoah.I don't have my bible on me right now so i can't quote scripture but here we go just came up:

Cain had developed such a love for his son, that he began to put his son above god. God commanded him to kill his son to test his faith. Cain prayed and prayed that he would not have to do it, but God continued to say he had to do it. Cain had to drag his son up the hill and onto the stone altar. At the very last minute, as Cain's hand was on the downward path, God stopped it. Now that Cain had put God above the one he had loved the most, his life and life with his son was fulfilled.

Marvel, slavery has nothing to do with the weak or strong, you'll notice that most slaves, if given a fair fight, could defeat their masters.

I used the term weak as in power,rule or authority as opposed to Kings and Rulers who had the authority to control slaves not as in fighting....lol.God used them to show Kings and authorities that He was the King of Kings and His(God) will was to make his 'Will' be known and His Word(bible) be remembered forever to the people.Kings had their rule God had His Will.This was Gods way of keeping His Word alive

Ghost Kat

12-29-2009, 08:54 PM

Marvel

12-29-2009, 09:00 PM

Old Testament again, ok then......

Luke 19:27, Matthew 10: 34-37, Matthew 19:28-29, Luke 14: 26-33

When you have time....

Mark 16:17-18
I’ve seen people on TV doing this

We can also thank the coming of Jesus with the idea of Hell and eternal punishment for our sins. Nowhere in the 1st 5 does the idea of Hell come up. Or being punished forever, Only in the New Testament

You need a Pastor if you want to know about these things.The New Testament was brought about to address the modern day churches, again you need a Pastor to really clarify this.

Ghost Kat

12-29-2009, 09:06 PM

don't associate me with some guy called Fred i don't see where you're getting this hate from.

Do you have a problem with people named Fred?

I'm judging you by your own words, which I'll admit may be taken out of context. But don't sound good either way. Saying God used slaves is basically saying God allowed and wanted slavery. You listed Moses, But what about his people the ones that really suffered? Moses wasn't even a slave, So I'm lost. Unless God used Moses to free the slaves only to have 2000 yrs later a more horrible version to pop up.

You need a Pastor if you want to know about these things.The New Testament was brought about to address the modern day churches, again you need a Pastor to really clarify this.

No...I really don't. I can read just as well as any Pastor. I don't need another human telling me what something I can read for myself means. Thats what has people in the position we are in now.

Marvel

12-29-2009, 09:15 PM

Do you have a problem with people named Fred?

I'm judging you by your own words, which I'll admit may be taken out of context. But don't sound good either way. Saying God used slaves is basically saying God allowed and wanted slavery. You listed Moses, But what about his people the ones that really suffered? Moses wasn't even a slave, So I'm lost. Unless God used Moses to free the slaves only to have 2000 yrs later a more horrible version to pop up.

No...I really don't. I can read just as well as any Pastor. I don't need another human telling me what something I can read for myself means.

No..........the slaves were already there in Egypt under Phaoroahs rule,God using them does not mean that he allowed it or wanted slavery around.As for the Pastor comment in all honesty bro you really do because i know only so much about God not nearly as much as a man who dedicates his whole life to studying Gods Word,and no i don't have a problem with people named Fred either......... Freddo on the other hand hmmmmm

dnbman

12-29-2009, 11:28 PM

Don't you find it funny though how when natural disasters occur people start realising God or they start talking about "why would God do this" yet the very reason we are intertwined with Earths disasters is because of US, and from the very beginning it has always been US not God who are responsible that these earthquakes or floods even exist today.All these disasters are the result of our sin.If there was no sin there would not have been a flood(Noahs Ark),since that flood the earths environment has changed and the disasters that occur today are offset because of that flood.

Wait.

WHAT??!!

So, there were no natural disasters before Noah? Hurricanes, snow storms, and METEORS are a result of human sin?

What about cosmic disasters that don't directly effect us, like distant exploding stars? Are those also connected to our sin?

Keetch

12-30-2009, 12:05 AM

What about cosmic disasters that don't directly effect us, like distant exploding stars? Are those also connected to our sin?

When the distant star NX3978 went nova last week it took out a particularly nice little planet that was home to about a billion Freeblings; cute little monsters they were; talked out their asses.

Marvel

12-30-2009, 01:05 AM

Wait.

WHAT??!!

So, there were no natural disasters before Noah? Hurricanes, snow storms, and METEORS are a result of human sin?

What about cosmic disasters that don't directly effect us, like distant exploding stars? Are those also connected to our sin?

I'm not an historian so i can't give you an answer whether or not any floods or hurricanes and snow storms occured before Noah.I'm not educated in natural disasters but read this http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/939-natural-disasters-why-do-they-happen see if it helps

What about cosmic disasters that don't directly effect us, like distant exploding stars?

What about them..... i'm not an astrologist or cosmologist whatever they're called either, like i said yall need a man who is well versed in scripture, that i am not.

Ghost Kat

12-30-2009, 02:50 AM

This is not the whole story. Cain had developed such a love for his son, that he began to put his son above god. God commanded him to kill his son to test his faith. Cain prayed and prayed that he would not have to do it, but God continued to say he had to do it. Cain had to drag his son up the hill and onto the stone altar. At the very last minute, as Cain's hand was on the downward path, God stopped it. Now that Cain had put God above the one he had loved the most, his life and life with his son was fulfilled.

You meant Abraham not Cain....Right?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2022:%201-2&version=NIV

Anyone who doesn't have a bible handy can copy and paste the verses i sited. You tell me if God tell folk to kill people. Post more tomorrow.

Keetch

12-30-2009, 03:03 AM

Sin in itself is an interesting historical construct. I've had the impression for a long time that it was mostly a device used by the early church to maintain political and intellectual control of its congregations and community; but clearly it's much, much more than that; as the Original Sin begins with the story of Adam and Eve.

Both for individuals and more largely, cultures; I think sin is subjective; one's sin may be another's virtue and vice versa.

One could spend many hours contemplating the many pathways to sin, as well as the manifestations of personal and public evil. That is, if you believe in such stuff, or perhaps perceive the terms in metaphors.

I often think it is best to avoid the concept altogether and be objective in judgement. That's not to be permissive of destructive behavior, but to be humble before it; and Christ-like in its treatment.

Chef

12-30-2009, 07:43 AM

You meant Abraham not Cain....Right?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2022:%201-2&version=NIV

Anyone who doesn't have a bible handy can copy and paste the verses i sited. You tell me if God tell folk to kill people. Post more tomorrow.

oops, yes. well don't i feel like a horse's patoot.

Chef

12-30-2009, 07:46 AM

bing!

12-30-2009, 08:18 AM

^ hey, that would justify sadistic acts for masochists, right?

dnbman

12-30-2009, 09:32 AM

I'm not an historian so i can't give you an answer whether or not any floods or hurricanes and snow storms occured before Noah.I'm not educated in natural disasters but read this http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/939-natural-disasters-why-do-they-happen see if it helps

What about them..... i'm not an astrologist or cosmologist whatever they're called either, like i said yall need a man who is well versed in scripture, that i am not.

I don't know a whole lot about that stuff either, but I know enough to know that the world has been around for a very long time, long before mankind, and has had natural disasters prior to humanity. Moreover, natural disasters are occurring all the time on planets and in solar systems that have little connection (butterfly theory aside) to mankind's deeds and thoughts.

I respect your humility and the fact that you deferred to another source. However, you mind find that if you studied the Bible and the natural world more, your opinions might change a bit. At the very least, you'd have some very interesting questions for your pastor.

Please don't read this like I'm speaking down to you either. I have a ton to figure out too and am constantly seeking out new sources of knowledge and wisdom.

SWedd523

12-30-2009, 01:21 PM

I respect your humility and the fact that you deferred to another source. However, you mind find that if you studied the Bible and the natural world more, your opinions might change a bit. At the very least, you'd have some very interesting questions for your pastor.
Piggybacking on this to some degree, people don't realize that a lot of what Pastors and Priests and other "holy leaders" teach is just THEIR interpretation of what the Bible says and they can twist that to however degree they want in order to get their congregation to listen.

Since the beginning, the Bible has been used as a means of scaring the less educated into behaving a certain way. Back in the day the Bible wasn't translated into the common language, so the poor people never could read it until Wycliffe came along. They soon realized that the Bible taught a very different lesson than what they were getting.

I think the same goes nowadays, many people don't bother to read the Bible as a book and investigate what the scriptures say... they'd rather "be good Christians" and go to church every Sunday and have some guy spout his opinion to them. Many people don't realize that what they're learning often goes apart from what the Bible says and when they are confronted with that, they can't handle it.

For example, many Christians believe that Jesus was born on Christmas, when, in fact, he is believed to have been born around late July/early September. The BIBLE never makes a reference to the actual day, but using context clues show that the middle of Winter isn't the logical choice.

The Christians actually make Christmas the day to celebrate Jesus' birth because it coincided with a pagan holiday. At the time Christianity was a fledgling faith and needed as many converts as possible so they made a major holiday on the same day as a major pagan holiday so it would be an easier transition.

When I put "Jesus wasn't born on Christmas" on Facebook, you should have seen how many people got pissed off at me, EVEN AFTER I CITED THE BIBLE AS SAYING HE WASN'T BORN ON CHRISTMAS.

People are stupid sheep, they'll believe anything you tell them. It's terribly saddening that we, as a whole, don't have a thirst for knowledge that seemed to permeate humanity in the good ol' days

bing!

12-30-2009, 02:37 PM

I always figured the more knowledgeable would try their darndest to stave off any inkling of religious belief... at least my peer sample would provide one with such a notion. Wielding the unprovable lexical blade has sure worked well for the enlightened over the past millennia or so. Zombies crave brains, the sheep their pasture...

:)

Marvel

12-30-2009, 03:44 PM

I don't know a whole lot about that stuff either, but I know enough to know that the world has been around for a very long time, long before mankind, and has had natural disasters prior to humanity. Moreover, natural disasters are occurring all the time on planets and in solar systems that have little connection (butterfly theory aside) to mankind's deeds and thoughts.

I respect your humility and the fact that you deferred to another source. However, you mind find that if you studied the Bible and the natural world more, your opinions might change a bit. At the very least, you'd have some very interesting questions for your pastor.

Please don't read this like I'm speaking down to you either. I have a ton to figure out too and am constantly seeking out new sources of knowledge and wisdom.

I don't take your comment as though you're talking down to me either i only quoted that source because i don't have my bible on me as i am away from my home over the holidays.I have read and studied the bible and i know more than you think......the natural world...... i assume you're talking about natural disasters and comets and exploding stars, milky ways and dinosaurs,cavemen,why trees are green and metachloreans.
If i am a boaster i boast in the Lord as much as i have faith in God you have faith also in "evolution" or the "natural world".There are many pastors out there sure......just like there are many presidents of countries.Some may be corrupt but some are genuine and righteous.
You believe in what you believe in.......

Marvel

12-30-2009, 03:46 PM

oops, yes. well don't i feel like a horse's patoot.

oops i didn't realise either maybe because i was watching the Cavs-Hawks game at the time......Cain lol

Chef

12-30-2009, 06:00 PM

oops i didn't realise either maybe because i was watching the Cavs-Hawks game at the time......Cain lol

how about that josh smith/delonte west block then dunk sequence? didn't think delonte was going to poke that one, then flex on him...great. too bad the nfl and nba have decided that emotion can no longer be part of the game. how could you hit him with t in the fourth quarter of a tight game?

Marvel

12-30-2009, 06:07 PM

how about that josh smith/delonte west block then dunk sequence? didn't think delonte was going to poke that one, then flex on him...great. too bad the nfl and nba have decided that emotion can no longer be part of the game. how could you hit him with t in the fourth quarter of a tight game?

Yeah there were a few of them like the Bron block from behind (that was awesome) on Josh Smith and Moon's block on Josh Smith

bing!

12-30-2009, 07:09 PM

Whoa, solid derailing effort! Mods, mop up!

Marvel

12-30-2009, 07:49 PM

Whoa, solid derailing effort! Mods, mop up!

This thread was derailed when someone said i came from APES

teej

12-30-2009, 10:05 PM

Piggybacking on this to some degree, people don't realize that a lot of what Pastors and Priests and other "holy leaders" teach is just THEIR interpretation of what the Bible says and they can twist that to however degree they want in order to get their congregation to listen.

Since the beginning, the Bible has been used as a means of scaring the less educated into behaving a certain way. Back in the day the Bible wasn't translated into the common language, so the poor people never could read it until Wycliffe came along. They soon realized that the Bible taught a very different lesson than what they were getting.

I think the same goes nowadays, many people don't bother to read the Bible as a book and investigate what the scriptures say... they'd rather "be good Christians" and go to church every Sunday and have some guy spout his opinion to them. Many people don't realize that what they're learning often goes apart from what the Bible says and when they are confronted with that, they can't handle it.

For example, many Christians believe that Jesus was born on Christmas, when, in fact, he is believed to have been born around late July/early September. The BIBLE never makes a reference to the actual day, but using context clues show that the middle of Winter isn't the logical choice.

The Christians actually make Christmas the day to celebrate Jesus' birth because it coincided with a pagan holiday. At the time Christianity was a fledgling faith and needed as many converts as possible so they made a major holiday on the same day as a major pagan holiday so it would be an easier transition.

When I put "Jesus wasn't born on Christmas" on Facebook, you should have seen how many people got pissed off at me, EVEN AFTER I CITED THE BIBLE AS SAYING HE WASN'T BORN ON CHRISTMAS.

+1

This is why I try to shy away from the moniker of "Christian" and try to read the Bible rather than go to church and support the prostitutes that pastors inevitably seem to find.