Brown on Raymond's development

[dnbman]

http://www.nba.com/bobcats/video/2009/12/08/091208larrybrown-1148159/index.html

About the last two minutes Brown gushes on Felton's game. Brown seems to think that Felton is figuring out the point guard position like Billups did, which isn't to say that Raymond's skill set is or career will be anything like Billups'. The biggest thing Brown mentions is Raymond not playing with so much pressure on him, which is probably true.

[dav7z]

http://www.nba.com/bobcats/video/2009/12/08/091208larrybrown-1148159/index.html

About the last two minutes Brown gushes on Felton's game. Brown seems to think that Felton is figuring out the point guard position like Billups did, which isn't to say that Raymond's skill set is or career will be anything like Billups'. The biggest thing Brown mentions is Raymond not playing with so much pressure on him, which is probably true.

I agree with Brown , Felton seems to have figured it out. He took Billups out of his game last night. He looked quicker stronger and had as much control as Billups had last night . Hes playing with more confidence and less pressure . Being the number three or four option has helped lots. I don't think he had the shot clock WAS on his back but one time last night. Jax has helped lots in that area. Ive noticed Felton can hit the three ball if hes not hurried.

[dnbman]

I agree with Brown , Felton seems to have figured it out. He took Billups out of his game last night. He looked quicker stronger and had as much control as Billups had last night . Hes playing with more confidence and less pressure . Being the number three or four option has helped lots. I don't think he had the shot clock WAS on his back but one time last night. Jax has helped lots in that area. Ive noticed Felton can hit the three ball if hes not hurried.

He vastly improved his shooting over his three years at UNC, probably as a result of being more comfortable in the flow of the offense. I've been waiting for him to do that professionally, believing he would make that improvement last year. Hopefully, he sorts it out this year. If he finishes shooting 43+% fg and close to 40% from 3, I'll be very satisfied.

[playoffs...PLAYOFFS?]

interesting to think that he is not playing with much pressure on him...considering that this is his last year on this contract and he wants to stay here... he's got to have a good year for us to give him a new contract or another team to pick him up

its also interesting that this is the lowest amount of points/gm and assists/gm that he has averaged since his first year.. granted he is also playing about the same amount of mins as his first year

[etothet]

The difference is he is more effective. If less assists and less points mean more wins, then so be it. I think that is what he has figured out. Fg percentage goes up, fewer turnovers, more steals, more wins. Ultimately that is why players compete. They want to win. Raymond is allowing the game to come to him. He is not concerned with assists or how many points he scores. He is just playing solid basketball. I for one am so glad to see Raymond being very efficient. The statistics he is concerned about is the W's.

[etothet]

If he continues to play like he is playing now, the bobcats will offer him a contract. If they won't, there will several teams looking for a point guard who plays solid defense, and can easily give you 12ppg, 6asst, 4 boards, 2 steals and 1 turnover every night. On top of that, a point guard who can adjust his game to be an integral part of his franchise making the playoffs for the first time.





interesting to think that he is not playing with much pressure on him...considering that this is his last year on this contract and he wants to stay here... he's got to have a good year for us to give him a new contract or another team to pick him up

its also interesting that this is the lowest amount of points/gm and assists/gm that he has averaged since his first year.. granted he is also playing about the same amount of mins as his first year

[dnbman]

interesting to think that he is not playing with much pressure on him...considering that this is his last year on this contract and he wants to stay here... he's got to have a good year for us to give him a new contract or another team to pick him up

People feel pressure for different reasons. Raymond is the kind of guy who wants to win and be successful, or as Brown says please people. I'm sure he wants to get paid, but I don't think that's his primary motivation like other players.


its also interesting that this is the lowest amount of points/gm and assists/gm that he has averaged since his first year.. granted he is also playing about the same amount of mins as his first year

Yeah, he's playing five lesson minutes than his last two years. I think you'll see an increase in scoring and assists as he gets more comfortable and learns when he can be more aggressive.

[spectre]

I think originally he was playing with more pressure because of his contract situation...and LB slightly alluded to that in his conference.

Looking around the blogs and at one in particular (so named from our illustrious mascot) I find it highly ironic that last night's game Felton's play was dubbed "mediocre" and that "he also let Tony Parker school him from tip to horn"...yet Parker only scored 9 points (he averages 17) and he commited SEVEN TOs. If Felton had had 7 TOs we'd be ready to crucify him. Parker did have 10 assists, but you can hold down a player of Parker's calibre only so long. Felton took away what Parker does best, which is driving/scoring.

They also remarkably decry Felton for not taking more shots!

Really! So now some want him taking MORE shots?

In my opinion Felton is playing his best ball ever and by a big margin. He's truly falling into that Chauncey Billups mode...letting everyone else get theirs during the game and looking to step up later in the game when the other options are failing. All Bobcats' fans should be THRILLED with this development.

[Walt Cronkite]

In one of the Bobcats live preview shows he was interviewed and said something to the jist of "I stopped worrying about trying to get a certain number of assists and just let the game come to me". I was shocked, because as disappointed as I've been in Felton in the past, I never imagined he'd be one of those players. I wish I would've written about it when it happened. Anyway, I'm glad he's found the light, I've been appreciating his play of late.

[dnbman]

In one of the Bobcats live preview shows he was interviewed and said something to the jist of "I stopped worrying about trying to get a certain number of assists and just let the game come to me". I was shocked, because as disappointed as I've been in Felton in the past, I never imagined he'd be one of those players. I wish I would've written about it when it happened. Anyway, I'm glad he's found the light, I've been appreciating his play of late.

I'm a little confused. By "those" players, do you mean the kind that are worried about assist numbers or the guy that is letting the game to him? When you say shocked, do you mean negatively?

[Walt Cronkite]

I'm a little confused. By "those" players, do you mean the kind that are worried about assist numbers or the guy that is letting the game to him? When you say shocked, do you mean negatively?

Yes, negatively shocked. I never thought Felton would've been the type of player that is concerned about statistics at the expense of efficient play. I just thought he was a little reckless, which lead to him being turnover prone... not that he was forcing assist possibilities. Doesn't matter though, I'm glad he found the error in his ways.

[spectre]

During the great tribulation which is otherwise known as the years under Bernie and the Idiot, it was a big debate on whether he was a SG or PG...and both of those leaned towards the "combo"/SG side. Don't you figure he was under tremendous pressure to show a lot of assists vs. getting points?

I disagree that it was about himself as Walt seems to have taken it, but rather it was what the (so called) coaches and the FO were using as the rationale to play him out of position. It's not that he was sacrificing efficiency...although one could argue getting more assists would actually increase the efficency of the entire unit...but that he was doing what everyone was asking him to do.

With a team that has lacked a solid unit to put on the floor until recently I imagine "letting the game come to him" wasn't a realistic option. I also can't think having that mindset is very easy to do for any PG not on a team with veterans...unless he's a veteran himself. Even those have a hard time.

[spectre]

Besides...on this team he don't need a lot of assists. We have a passing team now vs. a dominating PG.

Kind of wish Jax would let the game come to him sometimes. Maybe the thinking will spread.

[Walt Cronkite]

??? The question was initiated during the run when Felton had 20something assists and 1 turnover through 3 games. Further, he's played under LB for one and a quarter seasons at this point. I guess you're suggesting that Felton was subconsciously trying to force assists due to being subjected to the "coaching" of Bernie and Hambone? More assists do lead to a more efficient offense... until those assists become turnovers, which was Felton's problem.

Anyway, sort of thought you'd try to spin what I wrote this way, which is why I avoided mentioning it at the time, because you've called me out for making jokes about Felton before when it was unjust. I was just mentioning a paraphrased quote from the subject of the thread about why he thought his game had developed lately... whatever though.

[Slam]

No doubt he is playing at a much better speed this past week. He's picking his spots and making better decisions.

I also think he is playing his way out of a big contract and making himself more expendable though.

[spectre]

??? The question was initiated during the run when Felton had 20something assists and 1 turnover through 3 games. Further, he's played under LB for one and a quarter seasons at this point. I guess you're suggesting that Felton was subconsciously trying to force assists due to being subjected to the "coaching" of Bernie and Hambone? More assists do lead to a more efficient offense... until those assists become turnovers, which was Felton's problem.

Anyway, sort of thought you'd try to spin what I wrote this way, which is why I avoided mentioning it at the time, because you've called me out for making jokes about Felton before when it was unjust. I was just mentioning a paraphrased quote from the subject of the thread about why he thought his game had developed lately... whatever though.

You didn't clarify when the comment was made.

Either way...you took it as him admitting to being selfish, worrying about his stats over running an efficient group. That's never been his style nor is it in his history. Between the two I don't think my opinion would be the one called "spin".


No doubt he is playing at a much better speed this past week. He's picking his spots and making better decisions.

I also think he is playing his way out of a big contract and making himself more expendable though.

He's been playing like this for like the past 10 games or so...little bit more than a week.

Totally disagree with the 2nd part. By becoming a more efficient player and focusing on the little things like rebounding, steals & defense I think he'll become much more desirable. Upping and maintaining a higher FG% would do wonders.

In regards to expendable...we have no one on the roster who's even come close to being an adequate backup, much less someone who would make him expendable.

[Slam]

He's been playing like this for like the past 10 games or so...little bit more than a week.

Totally disagree with the 2nd part. By becoming a more efficient player and focusing on the little things like rebounding, steals & defense I think he'll become much more desirable. Upping and maintaining a higher FG% would do wonders.

In regards to expendable...we have no one on the roster who's even come close to being an adequate backup, much less someone who would make him expendable.
He's not doing anything special. He's just doing the basic stuff. He's not doing anything that really makes him hard to replace. With the addition of Jax we don't need a ball dominating PG - which is great for Felts because he sucks in that role.

So that shows you could put a LOT of other PG's in that position and get the same sort of results - and those guys would come with a cheap price tag because they aren't anything amazingly special, they just do the basic stuff.

Because he is not doing anything amazing, he's running his price tag down and showing that he is replaceable IMO.

Which is great for us. Means we wont have to over pay for him.

[spectre]

I think if you try to plug in a Tinsley or a Watson to replace Felton we would all be hugely disappointed. What he does might not look like anything special to you, but being a solid player with no real weaknesses is much harder to come by than just plugging in some MLE PG.

If it were so easy you'd think we could have found one in the last 4-5 years. We brought in guys like McInnis & the Midget (both who were also considered as types you could just plug in) yet those ended in total failure.

[Slam]

I think if you try to plug in a Tinsley or a Watson to replace Felton we would all be hugely disappointed. What he does might not look like anything special to you, but being a solid player with no real weaknesses is much harder to come by than just plugging in some MLE PG.

If it were so easy you'd think we could have found one in the last 4-5 years. We brought in guys like McInnis & the Midget (both who were also considered as types you could just plug in) yet those ended in total failure.
Didn't have a SG like Jax then.

[spectre]

I'm nowhere near ready to give Jax primary PG duties. As you can tell from our last offensive play of the game it's not like he's the smartest with the ball at times.

Jax HELPS. He doesn't replace our need for a guy who can as a last resort drive into the paint and hopefully get a basket.

BTW...nice to see you back posting. Hopefully it's not just on certain types of posts. You usually contribute well when you're of a mind.

[110oldeast]

Gotta agree on this. Jack has been a great addition and yet this notion that he is "running" the offense is WAAAY overplayed. He doesn't run our offense anymore than Carmello runs Denver's offense or Duncan runs San Antonio's offense. He can score out of the post, something we have lacked for the most part. He is A playmaker on the floor when there there are 2 other significant playmakers (Felton and Diaw). He turns it over a good amount, however, as much and more than Felton did when trying to make a bunch of plays for others. What I do love is his willingness to take the tough shot (sometimes this strength can be a weakness, like with Felton) as this team has needed another guy who would do this. If anything, Felton's fg percentage increase is as much about somebody else shooting up the end of shot clock shot as anything else.

On the flipside, the notion that you are going to just bring in a lockdown defensive pg who can also distribute and be a scoring option in LB's system easily is a farce. Bring in a plug in guy who expects Jack to take on the role of truly running the offense and you will see him have the same struggles (poor shooting nights at times, high TO numbers at others) and reduce his efficiency. There is a reason that despite Jack and G-Force being on the floor at times with the 2nd unit that we tend to have our best runs with Felton on the floor and the opposition when he is off the floor.

LB's pgs NEVER have elite stats (not even Mr. Big Shot, easily the #1 in ranking). Looking at his stats alone and doing Hollinger fantasy analysis alone is going to leave you with a poor understanding of his impact. Look at his +/- every night and it is almost always significantly the top on the team. He is a very good young pg who is playing good ball and a significant part of this team's success when it occurs.

The next step for him is either earning or taking on the responsibility of knowing when it is time to audible away from the set play into another one. At the end of regulation, we stagnantly tried to force it to Jack on the wing several times (Boris turned it over repeatedly) even though Dallas was overplaying that play and we likely could have executed other things better (Gerald or Jack in post, Ray in pick and roll). However, if Felton is told that he has a play that is supposed to be run, he is going to try to run that play exactly the way it goes in dry runs. He's gotta earn the coach's trust and accept it to go to Plan B when the opposition is all over Plan A.



I'm nowhere near ready to give Jax primary PG duties. As you can tell from our last offensive play of the game it's not like he's the smartest with the ball at times.

Jax HELPS. He doesn't replace our need for a guy who can as a last resort drive into the paint and hopefully get a basket.

BTW...nice to see you back posting. Hopefully it's not just on certain types of posts. You usually contribute well when you're of a mind.

[KT#20]

These last ten games:

14.4 PPG
5.40 APG
3.60 RPG
1.20 TO
2.50 STL
56/104 = 54.8 FG%
10/16 = 62.5 3PT%
18/21 = 85.7%

Honestly, he's been without question better than Jackson over this span. Jackson wasn't even shooting 40 percent for us coming into today's game. I like what Jackson brings to the team, but I definitely do not want to see him running the point, nor do I believe that he has thus far.

If we replace Felton, we better make sure the replacement can provide the defense that we'd be losing with Raymond's departure. I believe he's currently second in Defensive Rating among PGs, only behind Rondo. Speaking of Rondo, if Felton keeps growing, his 2010 campaign is going to look similar to what Rondo did last season. Felton ain't Rondo, but he doesn't have to be since he's not asking for a max contract or even the $12 million that Rondo settled for. I would be fine giving Felton $9 million a year if he keeps this up.

[GoBobs]

Hard to believe we are getting great game after great game from felton and still losing.

[KT#20]

LB's pgs NEVER have elite stats (not even Mr. Big Shot, easily the #1 in ranking). Looking at his stats alone and doing Hollinger fantasy analysis alone is going to leave you with a poor understanding of his impact. Look at his +/- every night and it is almost always significantly the top on the team. He is a very good young pg who is playing good ball and a significant part of this team's success when it occurs.

Billups was about a 20 PER player under Brown. Granted, his stats did take a leap after LB resigned and Flip Saunders came on board.

[110oldeast]

The post below is just to show is not about making a big comparison b/w Chauncey and Ray, but to let folks see the reality of playing pg for LB and how it is not typically conducive to being a top statistical pg.

In the championship year Chauncey averaged:

35 mpg and 38 mph in the regular and postseason respectively
16-17 pts in the regular and postseason
39% fg in regular and postseason
39 and 35% 3 pt in regular and postseason respectively
5.8 assists in post and regular season
2.25 a/t ratio in post and regular season

Beyond the minute discrepancy, statistically, I think the biggest gap is the FTAs. I don't know if Felton will be able to do much to close that gap as he is one of the least respected players in the league at the pg slot from an officiating standpoint. Chauncey can initiate contact from anywhere in any situation and draw a call and Felton usually requires blood to draw one on the offensive end. That said, if Felton played with the jumpshooters that were on that Detroit team, I think he would have more assists. The lack of pure jumpshooters on this team really reduces the number of completed assists that he ends up with, IMO, as it would another pg. But they still play well together which is what is important more so than the raw numbers.

[Walt Cronkite]

You didn't clarify when the comment was made.

Either way...you took it as him admitting to being selfish, worrying about his stats over running an efficient group. That's never been his style nor is it in his history. Between the two I don't think my opinion would be the one called "spin".


I mentioned that it was during a recent Bobcats Live, I didn't think of the additional details until later. I didn't say he was selfish, I said that I was surprised by the personal admittance that he was worrying too much about individual stats. This is a total shocker to me, I've never thought of him that way. Like I said already, I just thought he was turnover prone, not that he was going out of his way to try and force assist opportunities. Considering that I'm trying to relay information and you're trying to create a Felton v. teh worldz fight, I'd say you're definitely the one trying to spin stuff. Whatever though, I'll concede and agree with whatever else you say if it means I don't have to argue about Raymond Felton with you.

[Toocool]

Good on Raymond. He stopped trying to act like a statwhore, and is just letting the ball come to him. His averages have increased overall on nba.com, lets keep it up Ray.

[spectre]

You didn't say "recent".

I'm not trying to create anything and esp. not with you...I'm just amazed that some just have to invent a negative when there isn't one or when it's so minor it shouldn't even be brought up in Felton's case.

What got me to bump this thread after 3 days of it being idle was a group making up unwarranted shit just so they could criticise him. Since you followed right up with a negative assumption I hope you can understand that it appeared to be more of the same.

Why is it so hard for some to just give the guy his due? I've never seen an athlete where people feel they must invent/inflate negatives or disregard the positives in regards to Felton...only point out HIS negatives and ignore others...especially when he usually does enough on his own to warrant criticism.

He's been the ultimate team player and he's shown a dedication to this franchise (not signing a contract last summer notwithstanding) that noone other than Crash has shown. He's one of the last of the Bobcats who should be getting this treatment.

Heh..."Felton v. teh worldz". The way he's been playing lately there shouldn't be a "Felton v." wouldn't you think? Especially from people calling themselves Bobcats' fans.

And the above isn't directed at you either Walt. FWIW this season I think you've been pretty fair.

[spectre]

Does it work the other way around? Felton had a fine game, but boy, -12? When that scrub DJ Augustin was +12? And even Stevie Graham himself managed +6? Geez. I guess you guys were right. The team does look different with Felton on the floor.

Jason Kidd ran another opposing PG clinic on how a 1 helps his team win by facilitating for his teammates, completely shutting down Felton’s new-found elite steal production ability.

Yet another jewel from the orange blog. Thankfully there's been an influx of common sense and this is gettting beaten into the ground.

[Fred Williamson]

This phenomenon is also known as the "contract year"

[dnbman]

This phenomenon is also known as the "contract year"

That doesn't make any sense. Last year was his contract year as far as the Bobcats go. The fact that his points and assists are down this year suggest the opposite as well.

As Spectre is saying above, give the guy some credit. He's been busting his butt every season and it's finally starting to work out for everyone. There's no reason to undermine his success if you're a fan other than for "I told you so" arguments.

[KT#20]

Yet another jewel from the orange blog. Thankfully there's been an influx of common sense and this is gettting beaten into the ground.

Are you considering the original source? This is what Michael Procton is all about.

[110oldeast]

Felton has never been a statwhore. He is a people pleaser, meaning he wants to please the coach the most. Folks can spin things in all kind of ways to justify not giving credit to a guy regardless of the situation. Many Bobcats fans are determined to minimize the positive impact he has while exaggerating the negative impact. It's pretty much par for the course however.

In the end, there have been 3 players who have consistently playing at a high level since the Jack trade: Jackson, Wallace, and Felton. Whether fans recognize that or not, I guarantee you the guy calling the shots has.

[spectre]

Are you considering the original source? This is what Michael Procton is all about.

No doubt, but he has his sycophants.

Fer instance...one equates assists with "court vision". If Felton had 6 assists or more he "saw" the court well; if less then he didn't have good court vision for that game.

The irony? These are the guys who were clamoring for us to trade Felton and let DJ take over...yet DJ last year (which they equate to near all star status) only averaged 3.5 APG and a Ast to TO ratio of just over 2:1.

[Marvel]

Truthfully, i expected this from Felton at least.He's in a "contract year" and for him to get anything near $9mill he will have to keep up this level of play from here on out.

[Slam]

Just so others are clear on my point, I am not advocating playing Jax as our starting point. Far from it.

My point is that with a SG like Jax on the roster (and Boris when his head is removed from his arse) there isn't nearly the importance placed on the shoulders of our PG. We just need someone who is serviceable and who doesn't make bone headed decisions/take bone headed shots.

That being the case, there is no way in hell we should over pay for them so there is less reason than ever before to over pay for Felts - if we are given the chance.

I'd still be willing to pay him $5-$6 mil per year flat. If he didn't like that idea, I would look to sign a serviceable PG who is a FA at a cheaper rate than $5-$6 mil per year flat.

Guys like Lowry, Bynum, CJ Watson, Earl Watson, Farmer.

Outside of that I would speak to the Wolves about trading for Sessions or the Raptors about trading for Jack or Banks - all guys who would be cheaper than Felts and be able to do a very similar job.

Don't get me wrong, I really want to retain Felts. Always have. He is a GREAT team guy, loves the game, is a warrior and has the best intentions. I just don't want to over pay for him, and if we were forced to, I'd rather look at other options.

[SWedd523]

Slam is making a point that we all should understand. We don't need a ball dominating PG now. Players like CP3, Parker, Calderon, etc. all clash with Jack's skill set.


Look at a guy like Derek Fisher. Hardly a top tier PG, but he doesn't necessarily HAVE to be a PG. He just has to be solid and be able to handle the ball when Kobe doesn't have it.

Players like Sessions, Lowry, and Bynum would all be good fits for our team because they don't need the ball in their hands 24/7 to be successful. However, the difficulty is finding a player in that mold that plays defense as well as Felts does. If he signs for 7 or less then thats cool by me. Anything more, and I'd rather bite the bullet and find someone who isn't much different from him but is wiling to take the smaller contract.

[dnbman]

Slam is making a point that we all should understand. We don't need a ball dominating PG now. Players like CP3, Parker, Calderon, etc. all clash with Jack's skill set.


Look at a guy like Derek Fisher. Hardly a top tier PG, but he doesn't necessarily HAVE to be a PG. He just has to be solid and be able to handle the ball when Kobe doesn't have it.

Players like Sessions, Lowry, and Bynum would all be good fits for our team because they don't need the ball in their hands 24/7 to be successful. However, the difficulty is finding a player in that mold that plays defense as well as Felts does. If he signs for 7 or less then thats cool by me. Anything more, and I'd rather bite the bullet and find someone who isn't much different from him but is wiling to take the smaller contract.

I understand the argument, but Jackson doesn't seem like that kind of play-maker. Jackson isn't a Kobe type, though he can get it going at times.

I'm not saying we couldn't compete with more of a Fisher type point guard, but I think we probably need more than that in the play-making department.

[Slam]

I understand the argument, but Jackson doesn't seem like that kind of play-maker. Jackson isn't a Kobe type, though he can get it going at times.

I'm not saying we couldn't compete with more of a Fisher type point guard, but I think we probably need more than that in the play-making department.
Agreed - and I am not saying we make a move for a Boobie Gibson type. We still need a PG who is the main guy to bring the ball down, get us in our offensive sets and actually play as a point guard, but he doesn't have to be paid like a star - UNLESS he is a star and I don't see Felts ever being a star. We are seeing his total ceiling at the moment over this past week (or 10, 11, 12 days or how ever many days it has been). He's a serviceable PG that can be solid but not spectacular. He's shown his best ball since Jax came on board - which both magnifies his strengths.................but also his weaknesses.

If he wants to be paid as a star - which seemed to be the in pass over the summer - I would rather go in a different direction.

Like I said: Lowry, Bynum, CJ Watson, Earl Watson, Farmer, Sessions, Jack, Banks or even a Collison or a Maynor.

All of whom are not or will not be getting paid like a star.

End of the day, if Felts is willing to sign for 4/20-25 at a flat price per year this is all moot because I would much rather keep him.

[dnbman]

Agreed - and I am not saying we make a move for a Boobie Gibson type. We still need a PG who is the main guy to bring the ball down, get us in our offensive sets and actually play as a point guard, but he doesn't have to be paid like a star - UNLESS he is a star and I don't see Felts ever being a star. We are seeing his total ceiling at the moment over this past week (or 10, 11, 12 days or how ever many days it has been). He's a serviceable PG that can be solid but not spectacular. He's shown his best ball since Jax came on board - which both magnifies his strengths.................but also his weaknesses.

If he wants to be paid as a star - which seemed to be the in pass over the summer - I would rather go in a different direction.

Like I said: Lowry, Bynum, CJ Watson, Earl Watson, Farmer, Sessions, Jack, Banks or even a Collison or a Maynor.

All of whom are not or will not be getting paid like a star.

End of the day, if Felts is willing to sign for 4/20-25 at a flat price per year this is all moot because I would much rather keep him.

If this is his ceiling, then your numbers are pretty good. However, I think he's capable of more. Could just be wishful thinking, but we'll see.

[SWedd523]

I think you underestimate Jack's playmaking ability. He's averaging 5 assists a game..... same as Felton.


He's at his best when he's in do-it-all/poor man's LeBron mode. If we get a ball dominating PG, it's going to take away a major facet of his game. Why do that when we can get a cheaper, solid PG that can handle the ball but doesn't need to do it 24/7?

[dnbman]

I think you underestimate Jack's playmaking ability. He's averaging 5 assists a game..... same as Felton.


He's at his best when he's in do-it-all/poor man's LeBron mode. If we get a ball dominating PG, it's going to take away a major facet of his game. Why do that when we can get a cheaper, solid PG that can handle the ball but doesn't need to do it 24/7?

I'm a pretty big fan of Jackson and greatly appreciate his play-making ability. However, like Felton, he's best when he has play makers around him as well. Look who he left behind in GS: Curry and Ellis, two guys who are shooters/scorers more than play-makers.

Jackson isn't a Lebron or Kobe type who can make situations happen on a regular basis. He's more the kind of guy who is a good scorer who can take advantage of certain situations. If you turn him into the play-making scorer, I think you're asking too much.

[110oldeast]

I should have copy and pasted my last post since the system lost it. Below I have posted both of their numbers since Jack has been here. However, I think that many people are over Jack's ability as a primary playmaker. Bring an Earl Watson type here and that is what he becomes. He and Boris are terrific secondary ballhandlers. Increase their roles from this standpoint and both are likely to increase their TOs, while Jack's shooting percentage will decrease more. Felton directs this offense and when we start to get away from that, it shows. Jack is great out of the post and in a pick and roll with the right combination, but increasing his role puts him at risk for reducing his efficiency. I think we are already pushing his threshold.

If an LB pg is putting up the numbers Felton is in the minutes he is while playing the level of defense he does against other pgs, he is NOT easily replaceable. To think so, is to set yourself up for disappointment. We have 3 players playing at a consistent high level in Jack, Wallace, and Felton. To say any of them are easily replaceable is a mistake.

Anyway, Jack is not averaging as many assists as Ray (in 8 more minutes) and is turning it over at a MUCH higher clip. Again, take Felton out o the equation, and it likely gets worse.

Anyway, Felton's numbers since Jack has been here (13 games):

33 mpg
12.2 pts
5.2 assists
2.4 steals
1.7 TOs
3.1 a/t ratio
56% fg
48% 3pt fg
+5.4 +/- ratio (net +70)

Jack's numbers since being here:

41 mpg
19.2 pts
3.4 assists
1.5 steals
3.1 TOs
1.1 a/t ratio
40% fg
28% 3pt fg
-1.4 +/- ratio (net -18 ), showing that this ratio tends to be better when he and Felton are on the floor together.

Again, the downplaying of Felton's play is a mistake and something I don't think LB is doing.

He has been as significant to our turnaround as Jack and Crash. Take him out of the equation and we are still struggling.

[110oldeast]

This sums up my thoughts on Jackson. I LOVE his game on both ends of the court. That said, Wwe are maxing out what to expect from him and have already had some times of overdoing it. Just trying to plug in a new guy to defend, orchestrate, and play pg for Larry Brown (one of the hardest coaches on pgs out there) is going to increase Jack's thoughts on how much he needs to do. I don't think that's what we need.

Again, as well as Jack is playing, he just now got up to shooting 40% from the floor, is shooting 28% from 3 and has a 1.1/1 a/t ratio. Decreasing that efficiency is not in anyone's best interest.



I'm a pretty big fan of Jackson and greatly appreciate his play-making ability.

Jackson isn't a Lebron or Kobe type who can make situations happen on a regular basis. He's more the kind of guy who is a good scorer who can take advantage of certain situations. If you turn him into the play-making scorer, I think you're asking too much.

[Marvel]

I should have copy and pasted my last post since the system lost it. Below I have posted both of their numbers since Jack has been here. However, I think that many people are over Jack's ability as a primary playmaker. Bring an Earl Watson type here and that is what he becomes. He and Boris are terrific secondary ballhandlers. Increase their roles from this standpoint and both are likely to increase their TOs, while Jack's shooting percentage will decrease more. Felton directs this offense and when we start to get away from that, it shows. Jack is great out of the post and in a pick and roll with the right combination, but increasing his role puts him at risk for reducing his efficiency. I think we are already pushing his threshold.

If an LB pg is putting up the numbers Felton is in the minutes he is while playing the level of defense he does against other pgs, he is NOT easily replaceable. To think so, is to set yourself up for disappointment. We have 3 players playing at a consistent high level in Jack, Wallace, and Felton. To say any of them are easily replaceable is a mistake.

Anyway, Jack is not averaging as many assists as Ray (in 8 more minutes) and is turning it over at a MUCH higher clip. Again, take Felton out o the equation, and it likely gets worse.

Anyway, Felton's numbers since Jack has been here (13 games):

33 mpg
12.2 pts
5.2 assists
2.4 steals
1.7 TOs
3.1 a/t ratio
56% fg
48% 3pt fg
+5.4 +/- ratio (net +70)

Jack's numbers since being here:

41 mpg
19.2 pts
3.4 assists
1.5 steals
3.1 TOs
1.1 a/t ratio
40% fg
28% 3pt fg
-1.4 +/- ratio (net -18), showing that this ratio tends to be better when he and Felton are on the floor together.

Again, the downplaying of Felton's play is a mistake and more based on folks never being able to let go of the past and locking him into something they have in mind.

He has been as significant to our turnaround as Jack and Crash. Take him out of the equation and we are still struggling.


Felton has only improved his a/t ratio since the Jax trade because he doesn't have the ball in his hands as much anymore with Jax here.What does that say................it says Felton would be an ugly mess without Jax.Felton has never made players around him better.................never.Crash has improved his offensive game also, was he not a horrible mess(offensively) without Jax and Felton was trying to run the team.Again our offense has only picked up (we were dead last in offensive efficiency before the Jax trade and are now 27th an improvement no less) with the presence of Jax.I'm not discrediting Felton's sudden improvement in his game over the last 2 weeks,i just think he would still be a horrible mess without Jax is all.

[110oldeast]

Why does it have to be EITHER/OR? Both make each other better. Both make the Bobcats better. It's that simple. You say we would be a horrible mess without Jack. Well we would be a mess without Felton as well. I don't understand how a guy can be so mediocre and yet the team consistently be better when he is on the floor and directing the offense.

As I showed you, Jack on this team is better on the floor with Felton than off. And it's not as simplistic as the ball being in Felton's hand's less. It's also that he doesn't have to do all of he creating on a team lacking outside jumpshooters. Most great halfcourt playmakers are doing a good amount of pitching out to jumpshooters. Boris is the only guy who is a decent catch and shoot player for us and he has been struggling. Instead of it being about getting the ball out of Felton's hands, it's about the team finding some balance.

The idea of whether Felton has made others better is always one of those debatable topics as nobody changes anyone's skillset, but there are certainly guys who have played well or better alongside him. And I am not going to spend excessive time going through it, as I know his spot has been locked in many folks' minds for a good while and will remain so. I will say that playing alongside him helped Matt Carroll get a contract that was more than he should and gave folks a different view of Boris Diaw (before his injury and weardown from too much play this summer).

Jackson makes the team offensively better b/c teams have to pay attention to him. And since Raja's injury, we had no THREAT at the 2. To somehow act like he is our primary playmaker is misguided. When he is, he turns it over a good amount. To put Jackson in a place where he has to do more than he already is would be a mistake.



Felton has only improved his a/t ratio since the Jax trade because he doesn't have the ball in his hands as much anymore with Jax here.What does that say................it says Felton would be an ugly mess without Jax.Felton has never made players around him better.................never.Crash has improved his offensive game also, was he not a horrible mess(offensively) without Jax and Felton was trying to run the team.Again our offense has only picked up (we were dead last in offensive efficiency before the Jax trade and are now 27th an improvement no less) with the presence of Jax.I'm not discrediting Felton's sudden improvement in his game over the last 2 weeks,i just think he would still be a horrible mess without Jax is all.

[etothet]

Felton has only improved his a/t ratio since the Jax trade because he doesn't have the ball in his hands as much anymore with Jax here.What does that say................it says Felton would be an ugly mess without Jax.Felton has never made players around him better.................never.Crash has improved his offensive game also, was he not a horrible mess(offensively) without Jax and Felton was trying to run the team.Again our offense has only picked up (we were dead last in offensive efficiency before the Jax trade and are now 27th an improvement no less) with the presence of Jax.I'm not discrediting Felton's sudden improvement in his game over the last 2 weeks,i just think he would still be a horrible mess without Jax is all.

Of course Ray has played better since Jax came. Right now, Felton is making players better because he is getting the ball in players hands where they can be most effective. He is one of best on the ball defenders in the league. What really has helped is that Jax is a post up player and demands a double. This opens up the whole bobcat offense. Jax also knows how to find folks open from the double. Jax handles the ball just enough to give him a breather every now and then. If you put the ball in Jax's hand too long, he has a tendency to turn the ball over. LB has found a medium to improve the flow of the offense. Keep it out Ray's hands for a long period and see what happens to the offense. He is running the heck out of the bobcat offense. Have you been watching bobcat games lately? So, Felton is now playing at a high level both offensively and defensively and would not be a horrible mess without Jax because the bobcats are a team. Each player compliments the other. At the end of the day, it is about winning. Every aspect of the game is important, and each player's contribution determines the success of the team. Some players score more, some play better defense, but the team needs both to win. Players become horrible messes when they have nothing to offer the team, so you are sadly mistaken about Raymond Felton being a horrible mess without Jax.

[110oldeast]

Well said.


Of course Ray has played better since Jax came. Right now, Felton is making players better because he is getting the ball in players hands where they can be most effective. He is one of best on the ball defenders in the league. What really has helped is that Jax is a post up player and demands a double. This opens up the whole bobcat offense. Jax also knows how to find folks open from the double. Jax handles the ball just enough to give him a breather every now and then. If you put the ball in Jax's hand too long, he has a tendency to turn the ball over. LB has found a medium to improve the flow of the offense. Keep it out Ray's hands for a long period and see what happens to the offense. He is running the heck out of the bobcat offense. Have you been watching bobcat games lately? So, Felton is now playing at a high level both offensively and defensively and would not be a horrible mess without Jax because the bobcats are a team. Each player compliments the other. At the end of the day, it is about winning. Every aspect of the game is important, and each player's contribution determines the success of the team. Some players score more, some play better defense, but the team needs both to win. Players become horrible messes when they have nothing to offer the team, so you are sadly mistaken about Raymond Felton being a horrible mess without Jax.

[millst2]

WALLACE ALL STAR..

Just thought I would Chime in with the whole Felts/Jax argument when the face of the franchise is a fukn All Star. :) It sucked watching us lose to the only team we haven't beaten by 1 pt, but comeon guys.. Felton and Jax work well together. Felts is turning the ball over rarely now and Jax draws the doubles which would free a kick out to wallace.

It is becoming a thing of beauty. Teams are going to start getting burnt soon. They can't put a double on Jax every posession due to the fact Wallace is just a big a threat. They cant double wallace and jax as is opens up Diaw/ Chandler and Felts from the Jump.

I think if we keep playing like we have lately and gel a little more we will be in that 5th seed and we are going to hurt some mofo's

[110oldeast]

mills,

This is part of my point. As I said, we have had 3 guys playing at a consistent high level (Nazr is about the 4th) and to try to start ranking them in value is silly. They play well OFF OF EACH OTHER. The key is helping Boris regain his form as we will be very difficult to defend then while doing a tremendous job defending others.


WALLACE ALL STAR..

Just thought I would Chime in with the whole Felts/Jax argument when the face of the franchise is a fukn All Star. :) It sucked watching us lose to the only team we haven't beaten by 1 pt, but comeon guys.. Felton and Jax work well together. Felts is turning the ball over rarely now and Jax draws the doubles which would free a kick out to wallace.

It is becoming a thing of beauty. Teams are going to start getting burnt soon. They can't put a double on Jax every posession due to the fact Wallace is just a big a threat. They cant double wallace and jax as is opens up Diaw/ Chandler and Felts from the Jump.

I think if we keep playing like we have lately and gel a little more we will be in that 5th seed and we are going to hurt some mofo's

[etothet]

[QUOTE=110oldeast;146567]mills,

This is part of my point. As I said, we have had 3 guys playing at a consistent high level (Nazr is about the 4th) and to try to start ranking them in value is silly. They play well OFF OF EACH OTHER. The key is helping Boris regain his form as we will be very difficult to defend then while doing a tremendous job defending others.[/QUI

I agree with both of you guys!

[spectre]

I think you underestimate Jack's playmaking ability. He's averaging 5 assists a game..... same as Felton.


He's at his best when he's in do-it-all/poor man's LeBron mode. If we get a ball dominating PG, it's going to take away a major facet of his game. Why do that when we can get a cheaper, solid PG that can handle the ball but doesn't need to do it 24/7?

He's averaging 3.4 assists a game as well as 3.1 TOs per game...almost a 1:1 ratio.

It's not a choice between a ball dominating PG or one that'll sit on the wings for an occasional 3 pt shot. If it were the offense wouldn't stagnate whenever DJ or Flip check in to play the point.

I assume most of you like being at/near the top of the league in defense? That starts with the PG. If he can't stop the dribble penetration then the whole thing breaks down. Our PG will also have to create something when the other team decides to put a good defender on Jax to deny him the ball sort of like Kidd did the other night.

No doubt the scrubs of the NBA could easily do that right?

[SWedd523]

He's averaging 3.4 assists a game as well as 3.1 TOs per game...almost a 1:1 ratio.

It's not a choice between a ball dominating PG or one that'll sit on the wings for an occasional 3 pt shot. If it were the offense wouldn't stagnate whenever DJ or Flip check in to play the point.

I assume most of you like being at/near the top of the league in defense? That starts with the PG. If he can't stop the dribble penetration then the whole thing breaks down. Our PG will also have to create something when the other team decides to put a good defender on Jax to deny him the ball sort of like Kidd did the other night.

No doubt the scrubs of the NBA could easily do that right?
I have 3.9 to 3, but you're close enough. I accidentally said 4.5 when that's rebounds.

And if you go back in look at my previous posts I'm said:

Players like Sessions, Lowry, and Bynum would all be good fits for our team because they don't need the ball in their hands 24/7 to be successful. However, the difficulty is finding a player in that mold that plays defense as well as Felts does. If he signs for 7 or less then thats cool by me. Anything more, and I'd rather bite the bullet and find someone who isn't much different from him but is wiling to take the smaller contract.



So it sounds like we're in agreement? Don't really see why you're addressing me with that topic. His defense is nice. That makes him hard to replace. However, his defense isn't nice enough that he needs to be paid 8 or 9 million a year

[spectre]

I have 3.9 to 3, but you're close enough. I accidentally said 4.5 when that's rebounds.

And if you go back in look at my previous posts I'm said:

Players like Sessions, Lowry, and Bynum would all be good fits for our team because they don't need the ball in their hands 24/7 to be successful. However, the difficulty is finding a player in that mold that plays defense as well as Felts does. If he signs for 7 or less then thats cool by me. Anything more, and I'd rather bite the bullet and find someone who isn't much different from him but is wiling to take the smaller contract.



So it sounds like we're in agreement? Don't really see why you're addressing me with that topic. His defense is nice. That makes him hard to replace. However, his defense isn't nice enough that he needs to be paid 8 or 9 million a year

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/stephen_jackson/

I got his assist/TOs from there.

I just addressed your one post vs. taking your overall stance into account. We do agree it appears, tho I'm not going to put a value on what we should go to in order to sign him (other than to say 5 per max is pretty laughable) but I definitely want him as cheaply as possible.

I really wish I knew what each sides' position was last summer.

Without a star our PG is going to have to bring a solid game on both sides of the ball...and none of the guys suggested in this thread do that. If that wasn't the case then those advocating that would feel entirely comfortable in running with a Flip/DJ rotation for a few games. Taking out bias...I can't imagine anyone is thinking that.

[KT#20]

It looks like Jackson is getting much of the same treatment that Diaw recieved last season when he came over. A player comes in as a difference maker, but many deem him as our best player, or a player that can do much more than he actually does. I see absolutely no reason to believe Stephen Jackson, a 40 percent shooter, can shoulder the load without a point guard that can do damage at both ends. Jackson is giving us 3.4 APG in 41 MPG, which is hardly anything.

I would say the other reason Felton isn't getting as much credit as he should get for his play is because he started off so badly. He pretty much went from piss poor to pretty awesome. If he was playing like he did last season, then his recent upsurge wouldn't be credited to Jackson the way it is has been by some.

Felton shouldn't be a ball dominating point guard, but how many of those are there? Paul, Williams, Nash... who else? Likewise, Stephen Jackson should not be a ball dominating shooting guard. He's not anything close to Wade, Bryant, or Roy. He ain't Iggy, Carter, Johnson, etc., either.

No, what we need is multiple players that can create offense, while providing great defense -- which is obviously the bread and butter of this team. Felton's been Chauncey Billups-like these last ten games. If he keeps that up over the rest of this season, it would be foolish to let him walk, IMHO.

[110oldeast]

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/stephen_jackson/

I got his assist/TOs from there.

I just addressed your one post vs. taking your overall stance into account. We do agree it appears, tho I'm not going to put a value on what we should go to in order to sign him (other than to say 5 per max is pretty laughable) but I definitely want him as cheaply as possible.

I really wish I knew what each sides' position was last summer.

Without a star our PG is going to have to bring a solid game on both sides of the ball...and none of the guys suggested in this thread do that. If that wasn't the case then those advocating that would feel entirely comfortable in running with a Flip/DJ rotation for a few games. Taking out bias...I can't imagine anyone is thinking that.

This. If he was easy to replace, I am not sure how the Flip/DJ/Acie Law combo wouldn't suffice.

Sometimes it's different than looking at value in a vaccuum and just throwing out a number. It's also about what someone means to a particular team. Rajon Rondo (and no, I'm not advocating paying Felton Rondo's salary, so save the strawman) does not get the salary he does ANYwhere else, as his game does not translate as smoothly when not surrounded by multiple HofF type shooters. BUT, the Celtics also recognize that he is the glue that holds them together even though he is not THE star, per se. Now, surely you have a number in mind when negotiating, but in doing it you have to assess the role and value a certain player has WITHIN YOUR structure.

I don't think we need to break the bank with anyone, but I don't think lowballing is the way to go unless DJ, Flip, and or Acie kick it up a notch.

[110oldeast]

Terrific post from beginning to end. It's amazing how Diaw has gone from being the player who "ran" our offense last year, made everyone better, and best player on the team, to a guy folks want to trade now. We tend to be too polarized in our thoughts on things. The point is building a COHESIVE unit with CONTINUITY and recognizing how their strengths feed off each other while mixing in necessary pieces to fill voids.

Instead of trying to add more to Jackson's plate (trust me, trying to just plug in a new pg to play for LB will easily do this), we should be focusing on enhancing our balance and getting consistent frontcourt play out of the PF and C positions.


It looks like Jackson is getting much of the same treatment that Diaw recieved last season when he came over. A player comes in as a difference maker, but many deem him as our best player, or a player that can do much more than he actually does. I see absolutely no reason to believe Stephen Jackson, a 40 percent shooter, can shoulder the load without a point guard that can do damage at both ends. Jackson is giving us 3.4 APG in 41 MPG, which is hardly anything.

I would say the other reason Felton isn't getting as much credit as he should get for his play is because he started off so badly. He pretty much went from piss poor to pretty awesome. If he was playing like he did last season, then his recent upsurge wouldn't be credited to Jackson the way it is has been by some.

Felton shouldn't be a ball dominating point guard, but how many of those are there? Paul, Williams, Nash... who else? Likewise, Stephen Jackson should not be a ball dominating shooting guard. He's not anything close to Wade, Bryant, or Roy. He ain't Iggy, Carter, Johnson, etc., either.

No, what we need is multiple players that can create offense, while providing great defense -- which is obviously the bread and butter of this team. Felton's been Chauncey Billups-like these last ten games. If he keeps that up over the rest of this season, it would be foolish to let him walk, IMHO.

[SWedd523]

Terrific post from beginning to end. It's amazing how Diaw has gone from being the player who "ran" our offense last year, made everyone better, and best player on the team, to a guy folks want to trade now. We tend to be too polarized in our thoughts on things. The point is building a COHESIVE unit with CONTINUITY and recognizing how their strengths feed off each other while mixing in necessary pieces to fill voids.

Instead of trying to add more to Jackson's plate (trust me, trying to just plug in a new pg to play for LB will easily do this), we should be focusing on enhancing our balance and getting consistent frontcourt play out of the PF and C positions.
The point of Diaw is that he's a guy that can move the ball around from a position other than PG. Now that we brough somebody in who does that, and is better, Diaw has become expendable. We aren't a COHESIVE unit when Diaw can't do what he's supposed to do and we don't have CONTINUITY when he's not being used to his full potential. In order to find a guy that "feeds off of the rest of the unit" and "find a consistent PF" we need a guy that can score inside once we throw the ball to the low post.




That's why people want to trade Diaw.

[110oldeast]

He's also the only guy (save Felton, FOR NOW) who can knock down the outside jumper when passed to him. The biggest question is if he is just going to be worn down all year from the offseason or if he can actually get himself on track, and closer to where he was.

My point wasn't whether or not Diaw should be traded (although I think his skillset when he is right is perfect for this team). My point was that sometimes players benefit from being with other players and systems and their abilities don't happen in a vacuum. I think that Diaw and Felton have had good chemistry and I think that Jackson and Felton have had good chemistry. I think that saying that the production all on one of their shoulders or the other would be a mistake in the same way I felt folks who tried to have the same speech with Diaw last year were mistaken.

Boris is in a funk. Obviously if he shows no signs of coming out of it, he has to be moved. But if he can, his skillset is a needed one on the Bobcats, IMO. If we can find a way to help him get his head on, I think that would be beneficial to us in the long run.

My other point is when we put more on Jack's shoulders and the inefficiency increases, we possibly end up having the same thoughts about him.

[SWedd523]

Last year we had Mek who could provide a solid, dependable inside game. That's why bringing in a guy like Diaw was fine even though he wasn't a post player. He could spread out and take some attention away from Mek and spread the floor some. Now we have Tyson who doesn't have much inside game at all so we're stuck with two players who don't control the paint on the offensive end.

Bringing in Jack more or less replicated Diaw's ability to spread the floor. Now that our team is perimeter oriented, it's really shown a glaring weakness in our front court. We don't need a finesse guy anymore now that Mek is gone. We need a guy who can post up, catch the ball, put a move on his man, and drop a hook shot. Can Diaw do that? Yes, occasionally. Can Tyson do it? No, not really.

We're going to stay being a middle of the pack team unless we get some dependable form of post play. I dare say if we didn't make that Mek/Tyson trade, we'd have a 2nd round playoff team.

[Marvel]

This. If he was easy to replace, I am not sure how the Flip/DJ/Acie Law combo wouldn't suffice.

Sometimes it's different than looking at value in a vaccuum and just throwing out a number. It's also about what someone means to a particular team. Rajon Rondo (and no, I'm not advocating paying Felton Rondo's salary, so save the strawman) does not get the salary he does ANYwhere else, as his game does not translate as smoothly when not surrounded by multiple HofF type shooters. BUT, the Celtics also recognize that he is the glue that holds them together even though he is not THE star, per se. Now, surely you have a number in mind when negotiating, but in doing it you have to assess the role and value a certain player has WITHIN YOUR structure.

I don't think we need to break the bank with anyone, but I don't think lowballing is the way to go unless DJ, Flip, and or Acie kick it up a notch.


Lowballing......................we're not talking about lowballing here.Felton just isn't worth anything more than $5mill right now.



If we can find a way to help him get his head on, I think that would be beneficial to us in the long run.




....yeah on the bench and that's where he fits best, coming on as 6th,7th playing against 2nd unit players where he can be a pussy all he wants.

[Marvel]

Last year we had Mek who could provide a solid, dependable inside game. That's why bringing in a guy like Diaw was fine even though he wasn't a post player. He could spread out and take some attention away from Mek and spread the floor some. Now we have Tyson who doesn't have much inside game at all so we're stuck with two players who don't control the paint on the offensive end.

Bringing in Jack more or less replicated Diaw's ability to spread the floor. Now that our team is perimeter oriented, it's really shown a glaring weakness in our front court. We don't need a finesse guy anymore now that Mek is gone. We need a guy who can post up, catch the ball, put a move on his man, and drop a hook shot. Can Diaw do that? Yes, occasionally. Can Tyson do it? No, not really.

We're going to stay being a middle of the pack team unless we get some dependable form of post play. I dare say if we didn't make that Mek/Tyson trade, we'd have a 2nd round playoff team.


You don't need to dare....we would be 6th,7th maybe even 5th seed after the Jax trade had we kept Okafor but let's not beat the dead horse ay

[110oldeast]

Jackson and Crash actually do a good amount of their work out of the post. Betting another post threat is important, but if he can't step out and shoot, we are looking at a seriously clogged lane. That's part of where Boris helps, as we have wings who like to spend a good amount of their time in the lane. Somebody has to be able to spread the floor with the ability to knock down the long jumper.



Last year we had Mek who could provide a solid, dependable inside game. That's why bringing in a guy like Diaw was fine even though he wasn't a post player. He could spread out and take some attention away from Mek and spread the floor some. Now we have Tyson who doesn't have much inside game at all so we're stuck with two players who don't control the paint on the offensive end.

Bringing in Jack more or less replicated Diaw's ability to spread the floor. Now that our team is perimeter oriented, it's really shown a glaring weakness in our front court. We don't need a finesse guy anymore now that Mek is gone. We need a guy who can post up, catch the ball, put a move on his man, and drop a hook shot. Can Diaw do that? Yes, occasionally. Can Tyson do it? No, not really.

We're going to stay being a middle of the pack team unless we get some dependable form of post play. I dare say if we didn't make that Mek/Tyson trade, we'd have a 2nd round playoff team.

[110oldeast]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. 5 million? You and I are watching two completely different teams playing.


Lowballing......................we're not talking about lowballing here.Felton just isn't worth anything more than $5mill right now.



....yeah on the bench and that's where he fits best, coming on as 6th,7th playing against 2nd unit players where he can be a pussy all he wants.

[Marvel]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. 5 million? You and I are watching two completely different teams playing.

Ok $6mill tops there are players in this league who could give us what Felton does at a cheaper price is all.Sessions,Bynum,Rodriguez,Lowry........

[BRNC]

I don't think any of those guys will give you what Ray does on the defensive end...just my opinion...

[Toocool]

Sessions,Bynum,Rodriguez,Lowry...none of those guys bring to the court what Raymond does.

Raymond is like a pitbull, you get past him and knock him down, he'll get right back up. Raymond knows that he isn't the best player in the league, but he's downright solid, albit above average when it comes to on-ball defense. Raymond has a warriors mentality and isn't afraid to take big shots or make big plays. It doesn't always come off, but its his work ethic and how he views this team that I love about him. He leaves everything on the court. His stats aren't that flashy 14/6.5 but he's damn solid.

If we let Felton walk and got Sessions, Bynum, Rodriguez or Lowry, we would get so utterly burnt on the defensive end. DJ can't defend the way Raymond can. Ray is strong, tough and can defend.

I don't see why Ray can't continue to improve. He's finally letting the game come to him. He can be a legit 16/8, perhaps even 18/8 with improvement to his shooting and with Jax on the court.

[spectre]

Ok $6mill tops there are players in this league who could give us what Felton does at a cheaper price is all.Sessions,Bynum,Rodriguez,Lowry........


Bobcats MVP (and other awards) at the quarter pole (http://www.queencityhoops.com/QuarterSeasonAwards0910.php)


But doesn't it seem like Raymond Felton has been a big part of the Bobcats wins? It is not just your imagination - Raymond has been better this year. He currently sports a career best PER of 14.97 and is shooting nearly 44% from the floor and 40.5% from the three point line - besting his career numbers by 4 and 8% respectively. Oh, and he continues his consistent strong defense, holding the opposition to nearly 5 points below their expected PER (10.98 actual, 15.73 expected). That is just outstanding.According to QCH he's at least been the 2nd best player on the team and can be in the discussion as our best.

You think that's worth less than the full MLE?

I thought he was worth that (and apparently the FO did too) before he started playing so well. If...and that's a big if...he can continue or at least come close to maintaining his recent play he'll be worth a lot more.

[Slam]

In 6 games during Dec he's averaging:

17.0 pts
3.2 boards
5.5 assists
2.7 steals
1.8 turn overs

while shooting:

60.3% from the floor
81.8% from 3
84.6% from the line

During the 16 games before that over Oct and Nov, he was averaging:

11.6 pts
3.4 boards
5.1 assists
1.5 steals
3.3 turn overs

while shooting:

38% from the floor
14.8% from 3
74% from the line

His CAREER averages over 4 and 1/4 seasons are:

13.5 pts
3.4 boards
6.6 assists
1.4 steals
2.7 turn overs

while shooting:

40.2% from the floor
32.2% from 3
78.4% from the line

"One of these is not like the other ones................"

But hey, if he can keep up his Dec numbers, then heck, I'll chip in and pay what ever it takes to get him to stay.

[spectre]

I think the "change" happened 11 games back, but since I'm too lazy to calculate it all myself here's his last 10 games:

29 mpg
54% FG
59% 3 pt
86% FT
3.2 Reb
5.5 assists
2.5 steals
0.92 TOs
14 ppg

Obviously this is a small sample size, but I've maintained since last year that LB could help Felton immensely if Felton would allow it. I've also maintained that Felton is NOT a go to guy and needs a full lineup to where he can be part of a team and where he could be his best. Up til last year when we signed Raja he's not had that...so career stats don't mean that much in comparison IMO.

Beginning of this year everyone including Crash struggled. Now that we have Jax he's taken off as well.

Time will tell if this is an anomaly or what's to come.

[Slam]

I miss Raja.

GOD I would love him as our back up SG.

Frack that would be awesome.

[110oldeast]

Again, not leaving out any games. Here are the numbers since Jack has been here for Felton and for Jackson. Read them carefully and it will show the value that Felton has had playing with the currently assembled team.

Felton's numbers since Jack has been here (ALL 13 games):

33 mpg
12.2 pts
5.2 assists
2.4 steals
1.7 TOs
3.1 a/t ratio
56% fg
48% 3pt fg
+5.4 +/- ratio (net +70)

Jack's numbers since being here (ALL 13 games):

41 mpg
19.2 pts
3.4 assists
1.5 steals
3.1 TOs
1.1 a/t ratio
40% fg
28% 3pt fg
-1.4 +/- ratio (net -18 ), showing that this ratio tends to be better when he and Felton are on the floor together.

Again, the downplaying of Felton's play is a mistake and something I don't think LB is doing.

He has been as significant to our turnaround as Jack and Crash. Take him out of the equation and we are likely still struggling. Felton is the head of out top tier defense as the pg, so to think that just switching him out and somebody else in will result in the same thing here, would be naive. And for whatever Jack does in helping us get from 30th in offensive efficiency to 27th, it won't matter if we slip defensively.

[110oldeast]

Slam,

I REALLY miss HEALTHY Raja. We need a guy who SPOT UP and knock down the jumper so bad it's ridiculous. Obviously, his defense is also big, but we need a guy who can knock it down from the wing and get us an easy shot. We have a bunch of guys who have to work for everything, for the most part.


I miss Raja.

GOD I would love him as our back up SG.

Frack that would be awesome.

[spectre]

I miss Raja.

GOD I would love him as our back up SG.

Frack that would be awesome.

Of all our trades that one was the hardest for me to deal with. I just hate I never got the guy's jersey.

If only we could have gotten him like 3-4 years ago.

[Slam]

If only we could have gotten him like 3-4 years ago.
No kidding.

We have been fairly lucky with "those" types. Steve Smith served us well and DA was great for the kids (and in that triple OT against the Lakers!!).

But Raja, that kid brought the swagger. He gave us that ID. That smiling assasin stuff and occasional cheap shots - always HATED him for that on the Suns..............but man I loved it when he was in a Bobcats jersey!!

[Slam]

Sorry - didn't mean to hijack the thread - back to the dead horse............

[Marvel]

Sessions,Bynum,Rodriguez,Lowry...none of those guys bring to the court what Raymond does.

Raymond is like a pitbull, you get past him and knock him down, he'll get right back up. Raymond knows that he isn't the best player in the league, but he's downright solid, albit above average when it comes to on-ball defense. Raymond has a warriors mentality and isn't afraid to take big shots or make big plays. It doesn't always come off, but its his work ethic and how he views this team that I love about him. He leaves everything on the court. His stats aren't that flashy 14/6.5 but he's damn solid.

If we let Felton walk and got Sessions, Bynum, Rodriguez or Lowry, we would get so utterly burnt on the defensive end. DJ can't defend the way Raymond can. Ray is strong, tough and can defend.

I don't see why Ray can't continue to improve. He's finally letting the game come to him. He can be a legit 16/8, perhaps even 18/8 with improvement to his shooting and with Jax on the court.


Rodriguez is the only player i can really think of that can't bring it on the defensive end.Bynum is stronger/more athletic than Felton and Lowry hmmmmmmmm can't really say but his passing game at 48 per is 8.8 and is a rock solid defender.Lowry never worked it out in Memphis because of poor coaching and he's become one of the better back up pgs in the league under Adelman.Anywho.......... to each his own

[110oldeast]

Bobcats MVP (and other awards) at the quarter pole (http://www.queencityhoops.com/QuarterSeasonAwards0910.php)

According to QCH he's at least been the 2nd best player on the team and can be in the discussion as our best.

You think that's worth less than the full MLE?

I thought he was worth that (and apparently the FO did too) before he started playing so well. If...and that's a big if...he can continue or at least come close to maintaining his recent play he'll be worth a lot more.


The way that it is framed in QCH shows the uphill battle Felton faces in PERCEPTION among fans. I have thought at times that he could use a fresh start away from Clt. due to fan's thoughts. But the other thing I realized is that Felton is not one who cares, outside of pleasing his coach. I think that he has the right situation and right coach. I think that we have a solid core in the 1-3 positions as well as some other solid pieces otherwise. Diaw being healthy (if he can be) adds that 4th piece (although I know folks may lose patience with him). We still have room for improvement (bench progress would be huge), but as Brett shows, a significant portion of the improvement has been Felton's play. I hope the progess continues this year and into the future.

[Slam]

I hope the progess continues this year and into the future.
So do I, because he is a very, very likeable kid and a great representative of the team he plays for and the game in general.

[spectre]

So do I, because he is a very, very likeable kid and a great representative of the team he plays for and the game in general.

That and it'd just be nice if ONE FREAKING PICK would work out for us.

[KT#20]

Well, one other pick did work out for us but we traded him for a scrub. Another one (Augustin) performed better than the average 9th pick last season but has completely fallen off this year.