The 2012 Presidential Election Thread

Let me cast the first stone by saying this is all the republicans in congress and a few wealthy citzens fault. What are these countries major problems we all agree about? Debt...that goes on Bush for starting two illegal unpaid for wars. Deficit....Repubs and Bush, Romney/Ryan. Cutting taxes on the "job creators" who have created zero jobs would save this country billions. But Congressional repubs would rather cut money to people on food stamps than cut taxes on oil companies. FACT Seriously I would love to see thing like some of you do. Saying well both sides are to blame and blah blah, But seriously, only one side is to blame. Republicans have tried to tank the last four yrs just to win an election. They have voted against jobs bills, clean air acts, higher vehicle fuel standards, equal pay for women, gay civil rights, they cut money from teacher, police , fire fighters anyone with a Government jobs. But...They pass bills striping unions of voting rights, voter ID laws that are proven to affect minorities and the elderly, They passed more anti-abortion bills then jobs bills.

I'm sorry people but there is only one group here ruining the peace and harmony of America. How can you seriously vote republican when they pass laws that do everything but help you. None of us are millionaires, Except Ziggy, None of the laws or bills or anything produced by the rich controlled repubs will benefit you. Do not vote out of ignorance, or confusion, or loyalty, or whatever you people are using cuz it's not common sense.

I swear to Jesus Shuttlesworth if this country elects Romney/Ryan we will deserve the Mayan end of the world apocalypse. And thats all I have to say about that...

Kat,

Man oh man I wish I as a millionaire:-)

I would be out of this 9 to 5 job so fast it would make your head spin.

Back to the debate. There are people that love Obama and people that hate Obama. There are people that hate Romney, but I have yet to run into someone that loves him, his platform and what he is all about.

People that are voting for him seem to be doing so on the lesser of 2 evils theory.

Are there any big time Romney supporters here that prove this idea untrue?

I don't even think Republicans like him.


That's when you know it's bad

I'm going to stay the hell out of this for the most part, but one thing I have to comment on, and that's taxes on business in general.

When we increase taxes on oil companies (or any other business) who actually pays that increase? Does the gas prices stay the same and the company just absorb that increase out of their profit?

Exactly. That's why IMO there should be no such thing as a corporate tax...because all it amounts to is a "stealth" tax on US. Businesses do not pay taxes as the extra expense is passed right along to the consumer. When you're pulling for pols to stick it to them you're really asking them to stick it to you.

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Originally Posted by ziggy

People that are voting for him seem to be doing so on the lesser of 2 evils theory.

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I don't think I've ever voted any other way...and my first vote was Carter v Reagan.

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Originally Posted by spectre

I'm going to stay the hell out of this for the most part, but one thing I have to comment on, and that's taxes on business in general.

When we increase taxes on oil companies (or any other business) who actually pays that increase? Does the gas prices stay the same and the company just absorb that increase out of their profit?

Exactly. That's why IMO there should be no such thing as a corporate tax...because all it amounts to is a "stealth" tax on US. Businesses do not pay taxes as the extra expense is passed right along to the consumer. When you're pulling for pols to stick it to them you're really asking them to stick it to you.

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Can't argue with that too much. Unfortunately, all we can do is either not buy a company's goods or hope they are good citizens. If you continue to buy their stuff, it doesn't matter what is put in place to make them pay.

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Originally Posted by spectre

When we increase taxes on oil companies (or any other business) who actually pays that increase? Does the gas prices stay the same and the company just absorb that increase out of their profit?

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Simple question Spec, You think companies like Oil companies that make millions even billions every year need tax breaks? We pay $3.50 plus for gas, thats all profit for them, they have a hand in setting prices. We already pay for the increase, been doing it since the illegal Iraq war. If we made these businesses and super rich actually pay a fair amount in taxes this country would be able to balance the budget and pay off its debt. Kinda like what Bill Clinton did, but people so easily forget that. These companies pay less in taxes by % than either me or you.....Fact

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Originally Posted by CarolinaKat

Simple question Spec, You think companies like Oil companies that make millions even billions every year need tax breaks? We pay $3.50 plus for gas, thats all profit for them, they have a hand in setting prices. We already pay for the increase, been doing it since the illegal Iraq war. If we made these businesses and super rich actually pay a fair amount in taxes this country would be able to balance the budget and pay off its debt. Kinda like what Bill Clinton did, but people so easily forget that. These companies pay less in taxes by % than either me or you.....Fact

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How do you do that Kat? For every extra penny you charge them in taxes they're going to increase gas prices by the same amount. It just gets passed straight on to you and me. I have nothing at all against people paying their fair share, but in a free market system where there aren't price controls (not really calling for that as price controls open up another can of worms...tho oil is kind of a unique thing) businesses will charge what the market will pay.

I'd like to put it all on the individual since that's who ultimately pays the taxes anyway. Let the government openly take the actual 70% or so they really get up front...THEN we'd have that revolution.

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Originally Posted by spectre

How do you do that Kat?

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Originally Posted by spectre

price controls

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Originally Posted by spectre

For every extra penny you charge them in taxes they're going to increase gas prices by the same amount.

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Originally Posted by spectre

price controls

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Originally Posted by spectre

It just gets passed straight on to you and me.

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Originally Posted by spectre

price controls

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I'm sorry but these go together like cocaine and hookers.

Every time we try to regulate the gas & oil companies Republicans vote it down. Every time we try to move to wind, solar, anything Fox news makes jokes and republicans vote it down. This wasn't part of what you are trying to say Spec but I just want to make it clear these people dont have this countries best interest in mind. Until we get off this addiction to fossil fuel the gas & oil folk can charge whatever they want plus pay off congressmen to kill regulations so they can keep doing it and it's legal.

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Originally Posted by spectre

When we increase taxes on oil companies (or any other business) who actually pays that increase? Does the gas prices stay the same and the company just absorb that increase out of their profit?

Exactly. That's why IMO there should be no such thing as a corporate tax...because all it amounts to is a "stealth" tax on US. Businesses do not pay taxes as the extra expense is passed right along to the consumer. When you're pulling for pols to stick it to them you're really asking them to stick it to you.

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I do agree that if a corporation is charged more in taxes, then they in response will increase their prices in order to make up for the extra charges. However, lets look at it from the opposite end. If you give a corporation these large tax breaks and loopholes, does the money the corporation saves get passed on to the consumer? No. To the regular employees? No. To the shareholders? Negligibly. The extra money a corporation takes in or saves will go into a bonus pool that is distributed on a yearly basis to the board of directors and other high ranking management positions, regardless if the company was profitable or not.

As an example, I worked on a project that examined the merger of Merrill Lynch and Bank of America. Merrill Lynch failed as a company and should have been left to go under. However, one of their biggest concerns before and during the merger was how the bonus pool was going to get paid to the management team. Even though the company saw record losses and failed many of their customers, they still determined that bonuses should be paid out.

The bonuses were anywhere from $10-30 million dollars. There were letters sent from regular employees to save their jobs, or from investors asking for consideration to get back some money due to Merrill Lynch's failed investments. But the company did not do anything for these people, as legally they had no obligation to help out.

This is what pissed me off more than anything:

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Look what taxpayers' Wall Street rescue helped buy one former honcho!

Peter Kraus - a former top executive at Merrill Lynch who received a $25 million golden parachute after only three months' work - has landed himself a $37 million Park Avenue pad.

Kraus, 55, doled out the staggering sum for the five-bedroom co-op at 720 Park Ave. near East 70th Street after taking $25 million from Merrill after the company was sold to Bank of America in September.
The palatial pad - featuring 11-foot-high ceilings, three fireplaces, three maid's rooms, a library, a gallery and a family room/gym - sold for twice what the previous owners, Democratic fund-raisers Carl Spielvogel and Barbaralee Diamonstein-Spielvogel, paid for it nearly two years ago.

Before Merrill hired Kraus as an executive vice president, he negotiated a $50 million pay package for himself - with the bulk of that guaranteed to him if the company was sold.
Although he did not officially start work until September, Kraus hit the jackpot after just a couple of days, when Merrill CEO John Thain sold the company to Bank of America for $50 billion amid the stock-market meltdown.
The sale automatically triggered the $25 million payout under Kraus' contract. He left Merrill this month. The amount represents about 0.1 percent of Bank of America's $25 billion capital injection from the government as part of Congress' rescue package.

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/regiona...#ixzz24LN0Vnl7

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$25 Million for 3 months of work!! Did he think to help anybody else out? Maybe use that money for charity, or to start up a fund to help out those screwed by the company's investments. Hell no, I gots to get me a big ass bachelor penthouse for parties and hookers.

The CEO, John Thain "spent more than $1 million fixing up and furnishing his office when Merrill hired him a year ago. The list of furnishings, including a “Commode on Legs” for $35,115 and “Pair of Guest Chairs” for $87,784, makes Dennis Kozlowski at Tyco sound like a model of restraint."

I don't think corporations are an evil entity, as they are neither good or bad. They are not human, they don't think like people, and don't really care about people. A large corporation's sole purpose and responsibility to its shareholders, members, and/or investors is profit. Maybe smaller businesses can care about principle and take into consideration heartbreaking stories, but larger corporations, in their ultimate cost benefit analysis, do not care or consider such things. Whatever makes the most money is the decision, pure and simple.

So, the regular consumer gets screwed either way. But instead of giving the corporations and their ultra rich directors a free pass and easier access to money, lets get them on the hook for a larger, deserved tax burden that they can afford to shoulder. For one, they can only pass along so much of an increase of prices in their business anyway - if they try to recover too much, then they'll actually lose money to competitors or other considerations. I know conservatives abhor the idea of any government regulation on businesses, but its reaching a tipping point, and there needs to be a huge reigning in of such business practices (maybe putting a cap on how high a % CEO's can make more than other employees).