cant help but notice, but........

Mind if I multiquote again? Okay good...

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Originally Posted by gm in training

the players u where comparing where lacking in one area or another while tyrus clearly covered the majority of each facet. not only did the players you where comparing not only lack in some areas but they actual where horrid in the areas that they lacked in .

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Again, it doesn't matter who lacks what in what area, you said you "guarantee that nobody else in the league can put up similar numbers." Not hybrid power forwards, not tweeners, not pure tall athletes, you said anybody in the league. So in the language I speak, it means, there are no variables or restrictions, just find anyone who can do such a thing. Nothing else - slow, quick, injured, ugly, bowlegged, fat, it doesn't matter. And I found players just as productive, if not more. Point blank, period. Undebateable.

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Originally Posted by gm in training

i was stating that tyrus production per 25 min was amazing ,and you took it upon yourself to bring in PROJECTED 36 per min which means not factual ,its not proof.

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Look at the bold, you say per 25, which is a per minute metric. Not arguable. If the numbers are amazing at 25 minutes, they are amazing at 10 minutes, 15, minutes, 30 minutes, 36 minutes, and 48 minutes. Per minute productivity is per minute productivity, there are no angles that you think I'm creating, these are metrics that actual professional sports management personnel use in evaluating players.

And second, Tyrus' numbers are nice for 25 minutes, I'm not arguing that. But its not some incredible feat as you claim. These other players were similar in 25 minutes. I just used 36 because its more acceptable and tangible, but if you want 25 minutes, then their production was just the same in that time allotment as well. So that means, under both your metric and my metric, I was right. No twisting of facts, or any tortured reasoning - its plain and simple correct, nothing more to argue against.

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Originally Posted by gm in training

when i stated mully was one of the most diverse big men to play since shaq , i meant it. alot ppl dont realize how special/amazing shaq was; he had great court vision,transitional big(younger days),great defender,great post moves,very agile, and had respectable handle for an 7'1 325(younger days). mully runs the court like a sf,has like a 34 inch vert,has range ,soft hands,footwork, and can post at 7'0 275. mully is very talented , but i feel that he isn't being coached correctly(taking 5 three's a game?) , and im no coach by any means but we all can agree that mully is being misused talent .

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There is this thing called actual productivity that determines if you are that amazing or not. I like Mully - just like you, I think he is very talented. But until you can produce, then what do these talents or skills mean? I'd say Dirk, Pau, Garnett, Duncan, even if they all can't jump as high, are much more diverse with their individual skill sets. To varying degrees, they ran the court fast, have great court vision, can handle the ball, have range within their means. But they all rebound better, get in better offensive position, understand angles, game situations, how to get fouled, and have actually been a team leader (I know, Pau is the whipping boy now, but he has been there before).

Basketball IQ, offensive and defensive awareness are things that will hold Mully back. He's not a transcendent one of a kind big man that we just don't understand. If you can't apply potential and talent into actual production on the court, then was this talent really that good in the first place? Mully has to prove it on the court, consistently, first before you can make a claim like you have. I'm sorry, thats just how it is.

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Originally Posted by gm in training

hendo being a max guy ,ok i may have exaggerated that a little but i may be bias when it comes to hendo , because his game has really no weaknesses . i would love for him to have an all-star mentality but it seems he just settles . i feel he's a coach or system away from reaching his potential because like i always keep stating swingman who drive, run off screens,pull-up jumper,post moves,3 point shot,rebound,good defender,block shots and court vision (assist nmbrs have risen since he's been starting) are very rare . honestly max guy no , but 7-11 range yes, because based off what some of the players in the previous years been getting(batum,fields,charlie v,hibbert and etc...) im not too far fetched .

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Unless you have a particular reason for Hendo to get paid as much as possible (son? cousin? BFF?) why would you as a GM ever think of giving Hendo over $10M per? Even if you thought he could get there, you need production to justify money. And just because other GMs made a terrible mistake in their contract signings, doesn't mean we should too. If we can give Hendo $5-7M per, I'd gladly keep him. But until he can separate himself on the court, (not in some hypothetical future) from Derozan, Afflalo, Matthews, hell, even CJ Miles from December on, he shouldn't get paid more than any of them. At all.

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Originally Posted by gm in training

you bringing up odom not reaching his potential is something you cant even explain , i figured that you prematurely brought up his name or you may have thought he could of been lebron before lebron was lebron..but odom clearly was an elite talent on a superstar studded team who conceded to the bench because he was winning rings,getting paid,and lets face it he lived in hollywood. odom may even be considered to be hall of famer because odom's playoff production .

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I can and did explain it. Here it is again, very plain and straightforward. Odom had the tools to be great, but it was other variables that held him back, just like what is holding Tyrus back (not necessarily the same as Odom's, but something outside of talent and skills). True superstars become superstars regardless, they don't let anything hold them back. Kobe didn't let Shaq hold him back. Magic didn't let Kareem hold him back.

Stars have that drive to become great like what Jordan, Kobe, and Lebron have. I compared Odom to Tyrus because he has a nice toolset, but never realized his full potential to date, and may never reach it because of other variables. I don't understand why you can't see how that applies. Tyrus doesn't have the mentality to be a superstar. Thats my point. That is how analogies, metaphors, similes, comparisons work.

In fact, you just used an example of someone without the mentality to become a hall of famer, despite having the skills:

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Originally Posted by gm in training

so, if you felt that gave you the upper hand, then im able to state stephon marbury should be considered an hall of famer because of the projected rate marbury was posting numbers at before being damn near exiled from the nba .but, that wouldnt be considered reality ,so please dont try to use angles to make your point and when you tried to prove a point the players you used still didn't match tt production.

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Variables outside of talent and skills held Marbury back. Do you see it now? Please say yes.

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Originally Posted by gm in training

josh smith is clearly an 10-15 player but at this point its all opinion.

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Why do you keep propping up certain players that don't produce at a high enough level? Josh Smith is not clearly a 10-15 player. He has never made an All-NBA 1st, 2nd, or 3rd team in his career (5+5+5 = 15 players). He has never made an All-Star team (24 players per year). Its not accepted by his peers, coaches or fans. It will never be true no matter how much you wish it so.

your correct that i mentioned that nobody's per 25 was as equal ,so it shouldnt matter position or style...i'll give you that much . but, the players you mentioned still didnt post better numbers then tyrus and where never going to agree on that .

where not probably never going to agree that hendo is worth more than 7 mil (i'll accept 9) and tonites recent benching when hendo came off a game where he shot 6-11 and 3-4 from three ,isnt helping.

i still feel you haven't made your point with the odom scenario . i somewhat agree he didnt have the mentality to be an elite player that he could of been but its a catch 22 situation. if odom leaves to be the main guy or for more money then he's looked down upon as a typical selfish athlete but in this case he's looked as somebody who didnt maximize his potential so he may never be recognized as the elite player he was. the numbers he was putting up vs his min production was crazy as a laker . tyrus situation is a little different , you have to figure in he wasnt healthy , 5 different coaches ,and surrounding talent. tyrus posted better numbers with coaches w structure (larry brown,and vinny) , silas and dunlap ran/run some type of street ball, no discipline ball.

smith is one of those players who just never caught a break and being realized as elite talent. he doesnt need the accolades to prove how great he is ,but it would be nice to for the validation. rodman was an elite player that all his peers acknowledged but never made an all-game but made all defensive teams and rebound titles. it took deron williams like 5 years to make his first all-star game and he was already an elite pg before his first appearance .zach randolph been putting up all-star numbers since his portland days and his first nod was in 2010(9 years later).like i said , smith is one of them players who just got shafted every year .smith always stated that the hawks wasnt helping him get the recognition that he deserved. you could watch inside the nba,nba channel, espn and all the analyst were puzzled how somebody like smith keeps missing the all-star game . i can name all the players he got snubbed for each year.


2008 rasheed wallace(horrible),richard hamilton
2009 ray allen, jameer nelson,mo willaims
2010 horford
2011 ray allen,(maybe horford)

As much as I love Hendo, he'll never become the scorer I had hoped him to be.
Nor is he worth 7+ mil

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Originally Posted by ziggy

It's not me, but that would be a hilarious idea :biggrin:

Maybe I should create an alternate account and post a "Diop is a top 5 center" thread :g:

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http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/8932/dylane.jpg


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GMIT,

I know this thread is about dead to everyone else, but I just wanted to give my final thought:
http://pthumbnails.5min.com/10347657..._4_315_196.jpg

First, your last post started to resemble a reasonable response/debate to the discussion. You started to concede that someone with a different opinion may actually have a good point and is right about something. There are a lot of sharp people here (though some only sharp as a pillow), so just because someone's point of view is different, you don't have to tell them they have to brush up on their knowledge, or say "next" like you won a point and are on to the next contender.

If you could just even say "agree to disagree" like you did here, then you won't get as much heat as you have when you normally post. I realize you may enjoy the process, but it gets annoying to read condescending posts that try to bait people. Don't be that guy.

As to our discussion:

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Originally Posted by gm in training

your correct that i mentioned that nobody's per 25 was as equal ,so it shouldnt matter position or style...i'll give you that much . but, the players you mentioned still didnt post better numbers then tyrus and where never going to agree on that .

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The reason I used the standard per 36 metric was because not everyone averages the same amount of minutes to make a 1:1 comparison, so there would have to be some projecting to make it even and fair. But even still, those players numbers are close:

Warrick:
06-07 26.2 minutes, 12.7 points, 5.1 rebounds, 52%, .5 blocks, .4 steals
07-08 23.4 minutes, 11.4 points, 4.7 rebounds, 50%, .5 blocks, .4 steals

Landry:
11-12 24.4 minutes, 12.5 points, 5.2 rebounds, 50%, .3 blocks, .3 steals
12-13 25.2 minutes, 12.2 points, 6.5 rebounds, 53%, .5 blocks, .4 steals

Hickson:
10-11 28.2 minutes, 13.8 points, 8.7 rebounds, 46%, .7 blocks, .6 steals

Thomas:
09-10 21.7 minutes, 10.1 points, 6.1 rebounds, 44%, 1.5 blocks, .9 steals
10-11 21.0 minutes, 10.2 points, 5.5 rebounds, 47%, 1.6 blocks, .7 steals

So if adjusted by only a couple more minutes, the numbers are slightly better, but mostly similar, except on defense. You say this is an incredible difference, I say its pretty close, and not this amazing, superstar level feat. Plus those players aren't stars who are posting similar numbers as Tyrus. The true immediate stars never averaged only 20-25 minutes, so its hard to compare. Either way, agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by gm in training

where not probably never going to agree that hendo is worth more than 7 mil (i'll accept 9) and tonites recent benching when hendo came off a game where he shot 6-11 and 3-4 from three ,isnt helping.

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I'll ask you this - if the highest offer from another team on the market is $6M, are you still gonna offer $9M to Hendo, or are you gonna say $6.1M? Just because you like a player doesn't mean you give him more money just because. And the way its going this year, its not going to be high.

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Originally Posted by gm in training

i still feel you haven't made your point with the odom scenario . i somewhat agree he didnt have the mentality to be an elite player that he could of been but its a catch 22 situation. if odom leaves to be the main guy or for more money then he's looked down upon as a typical selfish athlete but in this case he's looked as somebody who didnt maximize his potential so he may never be recognized as the elite player he was.

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The mentality is the point I'm making though, and thats it. There is no catch 22, a star doesn't care if he's looked down upon as selfish, he just takes over. Kobe, Wade, Lebron, Jordan, they couldn't give a damn if someone thought they were selfish. If Odom is self conscious about it, then thats the mental block holding him back. He may like to win and be competitive, but he doesn't have the killer instinct to want to crush the soul of his opponents like stars normally do. And at this level, it is a big difference.

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Originally Posted by gm in training

smith is one of those players who just never caught a break and being realized as elite talent. he doesnt need the accolades to prove how great he is ,but it would be nice to for the validation. rodman was an elite player that all his peers acknowledged but never made an all-game but made all defensive teams and rebound titles. it took deron williams like 5 years to make his first all-star game and he was already an elite pg before his first appearance .zach randolph been putting up all-star numbers since his portland days and his first nod was in 2010(9 years later).

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I agree with you that Smith got shafted last year. But the examples you gave, they still got awards with all defensive team, rebound titles, actual allstar appearances, which Smith unfortunately hasn't accomplished.

I think I'm starting to understand your mentality now - tell me if I'm wrong. I think that your favorite kind of players are those that are superior athletes with pretty good skills, but aren't recognized by the public at large as stars. So you like to root for the underdog, and don't like to get on player bandwagons. This would explain why you value Hendo, Tyrus, Smith, etc. because they have shown flashes of being able to do things the stars do, but haven't received the recognition.

I may not agree with how you analyze their production, but I think I understand more now.