Lebron is doing pretty special things

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Originally Posted by Chef

this is the single biggest reason why the GOAT argument is pretty lame in my opinion. lebron could avg 30/10/7-10 if he really wanted to. he doesn't. he isn't driven the same way mj is/was. however, talent wise i think it is closer than alot of folks in the 'mj will never be touched camp' think.

i like the cross era comps alot though. it is a much more enjoyable debate.

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That's the reason for the GOAT label for MJ and why Lebron can't/won't touch MJ. He isn't driven to be the best so how can he top the best?

Swedd is right about the level of competition in the MJ era as well as the hand check rules. Lebron is obviously a physical specimen unlike any other seen in the NBA and hand checking would only do so much but it would slow him down a tad...and guys like Dream, Ewing, and hell even Laimbeer and Rodman patrolling the lane, I can't see LBJ being as effective in the post as he is in this era (but thank god he has finally woke up and realized what an advantage he has in the post instead of on the perimeter).

Ulitmately, my thoughts are:

MJ would dominate in this era as in any era.

LBJ would be sensational in the MJ era seeing maybe a slight dip in points, same number of assists, but I see probably a couple less boards a game or more since boxing out was the norm back in the day, plus, the size of players and physical play.

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Originally Posted by isguros

They hate him because he's just too damn good! At the end of his career he'll be known as co-goat.

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Nobody hates Lebron because of his abilities. I think most people that criticize him point to a relative lack of leadership on the court and then the Cleveland debacle where he basically publicly humiliated a whole city.

That being said, I've never seen a player destroy teams like Michael. Yes, he had a good supporting cast, but they weren't anything special compared to the supporting cast of the top teams of today, other than the fact that they all knew their jobs and played them well. But Michael would rip people's hearts out. I don't think people are afraid of Lebron like they were of Jordan.

That's not saying that Lebron can't easily take over a game. (The Pistons playoff game in one of his early playoff pushes was one of the greatest single game performances I've ever seen.) That's not saying he isn't one of the greatest players of all time. However, I just don't see in him what I saw in Jordan. Kobe is the closest, but he whines a bit too much. Jordan would just remember and then murder you next time.

Other than Tiger in his prime, I've never seen a single player dominate like Michael. (Though Gretzky certainly comes to mind, I never really had the pleasure of watching him play.)

Head game.


If Lebron played back then he wouldn't have been as great I don't think. I don't hate Lebron (I dont like him) and its easy to be nostalgic about the past and how tough it was. But I think it took a special kind of killer to be great then, and Lebron aint got that. Lebron is special and today when he gets two steps ... its over. But back then even if he had the full court to run there would have been a hard foul to contest his run. Its just difficult to judge two different eras.

The thing about MJ... he didn't change basketball he changed sports and possibly culture. Lebron is just a physical freak of nature playing basketball he isn't changing anything.

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Originally Posted by Mustachio

The thing about MJ... he didn't change basketball he changed sports and possibly culture. Lebron is just a physical freak of nature playing basketball he isn't changing anything.

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That's true, but that's more of a matter of timing and luck, combined with amazing talent, that made that happen. Jordan was a star during the rise of ESPN, hip-hop culture with the interest in sneakers, and variety of television programming that made people superstars. Jordan was definitely the perfect person to make that work, but it probably would have been someone else a few years later if Jordan didn't do that.

Perfect storm situation.

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Originally Posted by dnbman

That's true, but that's more of a matter of timing and luck, combined with amazing talent, that made that happen. Jordan was a star during the rise of ESPN, hip-hop culture with the interest in sneakers, and variety of television programming that made people superstars. Jordan was definitely the perfect person to make that work, but it probably would have been someone else a few years later if Jordan didn't do that.

Perfect storm situation.

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agreed that luck and timing were factors, but don't think Lebron in the same situation would have fared as well as MJ. Its impossible to say, but judging by choices and behaviors during his current career, Lebron would have wilted. Again, it took a killer to do what Jordan did, and Lebron isn't a killer. He will be number 2 though, just based on physical prowess and thats nothing to scoff at.

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Originally Posted by dnbman

That's true, but that's more of a matter of timing and luck, combined with amazing talent, that made that happen. Jordan was a star during the rise of ESPN, hip-hop culture with the interest in sneakers, and variety of television programming that made people superstars. Jordan was definitely the perfect person to make that work, but it probably would have been someone else a few years later if Jordan didn't do that.

Perfect storm situation.

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Chicken or egg?

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Originally Posted by Mustachio

agreed that luck and timing were factors, but don't think Lebron in the same situation would have fared as well as MJ. Its impossible to say, but judging by choices and behaviors during his current career, Lebron would have wilted. Again, it took a killer to do what Jordan did, and Lebron isn't a killer. He will be number 2 though, just based on physical prowess and thats nothing to scoff at.

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There are definitely a lot of things that Lebron would not have handled well. And you're definitely right about the killer instinct. I think he still would have had pretty good success. The sneaker business launched it all. I believe that's one of those times, like Gates and the Windows operating system, where someone was going to do it big and a genius comes along at the right time and makes it work.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Jordan, but I think he was a product of his time as much as he influenced it.

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Chicken or egg?

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Again, I don't see it as a matter of causality. The ingredients and the right temperature were there, and suddenly you had a cake.

Kobe and MJ both would psych out Lebron if they talked trash to him in win-or-lose situation.

Put Jordan in today's era without the infamous hand check and defensive fouls being called as frequently as they are and Jordan would dominate even more than he did in the 90's. Defense today is just so much softer than it was then and yet he still averaged 30 points for his career. However in Jordans era there was no such thing as playing a zone. That was considered illegal defense forcing a man to man type of game. But i doubt that'd affect him very much.

Put Lebron in Jordan's era, an era where you were forced to play man defense, with all of his ability he would annihilate. No one can guard him now and no one would have been able to guard him then even with the more physical defense his strong frame would compensate.

But you can't really compare the two. Lebron is a more complete player but Jordan is a better perimeter defender and offensive player. Lebron obviously passes better and rebounds better along with being a better shot blocker. Jordan is more clutch but both have that killer instinct to take over the game to secure the W. Lebron is a more efficient basketball player though. But you can't really compare them. I look at it like this. MJ is the best SG of all time and Lebron is the best SF of all time. But saying one is greater than the other is difficult but in the end people will say Jordan has 6 rings and Lebron has 1.

its a shame that the Bobcats didn't form a year earlier as we probably would have got James in the draft :biggrin: