What Exactly Happened To DJ?

[SWedd523]

Ha DJ will be a starter.He's a better player than what we have seen this season.

If he returns to his rookie form then you're exactly right. He can fill in admirably . Be careful though Marvel, you don't want be labelled as a DJ homer.

[110oldeast]

swedd,

When you say torched in "all 4 games," that implies in each game.

And you can try to brush off what I said about the respective first time playoffs series' situations (both were defending Eastern Conference champs with playoff tested pgs), but the point remains. Both pgs' teams were swept by better teams and were outplayed by their more playoff experienced pg counterparts.

Jameer who produced almost identical numbers to our bum this year also got better because of comfort and continued growth. Whatever the FO does, I will be fine with, but the BS scapegoating going around is a joke.

On a different note, using stats of DJ alongside Felton to justify moving Felton doesn't exactly work.

Finally, it was never accepted by me that "Jack got us to the playoffs," however I did accept that his acquisition and INCORPORATION INTO OUR TEAM was a foundation for it. Felton hit plenty of big shots, played strong defense, and did a strong job running the team this year in helping us get to the playoffs. Most of the time we beat anyone of any value, he had a significant role in that process.

Dynasty,

You're right, Felton has had way more continuity than Jameer Nelson and been in the same system/coaching situation his whole career. And you're right, the Magic team is a bunch of bums, so the analogy to defending fellow Eastern Conference Champion Pistons doesn't hold any water either.

So, b/c he had ONE bad series, he's doomed to have them for the rest of his career right? He was the only one too, right?

As to DJ, I hope he bounces back, but I also don't know that he has demonstrated being starting pg worthy yet.

[DY_nasty]

Dynasty,

You're right, Felton has had way more continuity than Jameer Nelson and been in the same system/coaching situation his whole career. And you're right, the Magic team is a bunch of bums, so the analogy to defending fellow Eastern Conference Champion Pistons doesn't hold any water either.

So, b/c he had ONE bad series, he's doomed to have them for the rest of his career right? He was the only one too, right?

As to DJ, I hope he bounces back, but I also don't know that he has demonstrated being starting pg worthy yet.

The Magic team that got slaughtered by the Pistons was a bunch of bums, and even then, Jameer Nelson was a better player than Felton. Whats your point? That team got better after years of tweaks to the roster and players on the team elevating their game to an all-star level. Lets just keep it real for a second here - if Danny Granger doesn't get hurt, Gerald Wallace watches the all-star game from Charlotte. The year that Jameer went to the all-star game, he was on a tear and was the key to Orlando's offense. They still managed to get to the finals without him, but every Orlando fan can tell you that the team under Rafer was drastically inferior to the team under Jameer. (Note: Finals Jameer should have never played, Stan was an idiot for trying to reintroduce him into the lineup like that)

ANYWAYS

One bad series is plenty for me. Especially when it shows off everything thats been wrong with a player since day one. He made stupid turnovers/mistakes. If he was a rookie still, I'd be okay with it but he's making the same stupid decisions that he made years ago. Over penetrating, not fighting through screens, untimely turnovers on easy passes, chicken-wing shot - he didn't elevate his game for the playoffs, he got worse. He's the one claiming to be a leader, taking responsibility comes with it. Whether or not he played the poorest is up for debate, but the fact that he came up the shortest given his expectations is very, very clear.

Stop coddling Ray. He got smashed, deal with it.

[SWedd523]

swedd,

When you say torched in "all 4 games," that implies in each game.

And you can try to brush off what I said about the respective first time playoffs series' situations (both were defending Eastern Conference champs with playoff tested pgs), but the point remains. Both pgs' teams were swept by better teams and were outplayed by their more playoff experienced pg counterparts.

Jameer who produced almost identical numbers to our bum this year also got better because of comfort and continued growth. Whatever the FO does, I will be fine with, but the BS scapegoating going around is a joke.

On a different note, using stats of DJ alongside Felton to justify moving Felton doesn't exactly work.

Finally, it was never accepted by me that "Jack got us to the playoffs," however I did accept that his acquisition and INCORPORATION INTO OUR TEAM was a foundation for it. Felton hit plenty of big shots, played strong defense, and did a strong job running the team this year in helping us get to the playoffs. Most of the time we beat anyone of any value, he had a significant role in that process.

Jameer was injured for every playoff series last year besides the Finals (and he shouldn't have played then). Other than that, only the year before has he played in more than one series. He may be more experienced, but not by anywhere near the same margin as Chauncey was in the Pistons/Magic series.

I'm not scapegoating JUST Felton and I never was. Jack and Doris both got their bottoms spanked just as badly.

Using DJ's stats alongside Ray work in that he's shown that he can, at least, fill in for Ray. He would be a defensive drop off, but an offensive improvement. However much the two balance out depends on his mindset next year.


I'm not discounting the contributions Ray made to the team. However it can't be ignored that we had a .250 winning % before Jack and a .586 % after he arrived. That trade made the difference in our season. There's no way around that.

[110oldeast]

6 TOs in the entire series. 1.5 per game. 3.3 a/t ratio. Just over 2 TOs per game during the season.

Can you please tell me about all these dumb TOs?

Not fighting through screens? You realize that if one guy has to fight through, the other has to show. Otherwise, you go under or switch. Besides, that being a longtime issue with him is news to me. Again, these issues seemed to be greatly eliminated when TT or TC showed, but again that's all coincidence.

I'm not coddling anything. I said before I would have rather him be aggressive than to continue deferring to a guy who shot 29% in the games we could have won while turning it over the most as well. I said that he should have been more aggressive attacking the basket and making plays.

The TEAM got swept, competed closely in 3 of 4 games against a big mismatch and did so with their top scorer being way below par and all the words are about Felton?

Again, break away from the script. Felton certainly could have played better, but the fall guy stuff is overdone. So is saying he has not improved this year and that he made all these "untimely, stupid turnovers."

Again, that's my issue with this. It's clear many folks have been ready for him to be gone and had their reasons for it and are throwing them out whether they applied or not.

The Magic team that got slaughtered by the Pistons was a bunch of bums, and even then, Jameer Nelson was a better player than Felton. Whats your point? That team got better after years of tweaks to the roster and players on the team elevating their game to an all-star level. Lets just keep it real for a second here - if Danny Granger doesn't get hurt, Gerald Wallace watches the all-star game from Charlotte. The year that Jameer went to the all-star game, he was on a tear and was the key to Orlando's offense. They still managed to get to the finals without him, but every Orlando fan can tell you that the team under Rafer was drastically inferior to the team under Jameer. (Note: Finals Jameer should have never played, Stan was an idiot for trying to reintroduce him into the lineup like that)

ANYWAYS

One bad series is plenty for me. Especially when it shows off everything thats been wrong with a player since day one. He made stupid turnovers/mistakes. If he was a rookie still, I'd be okay with it but he's making the same stupid decisions that he made years ago. Over penetrating, not fighting through screens, untimely turnovers on easy passes, chicken-wing shot - he didn't elevate his game for the playoffs, he got worse. He's the one claiming to be a leader, taking responsibility comes with it. Whether or not he played the poorest is up for debate, but the fact that he came up the shortest given his expectations is very, very clear.

Stop coddling Ray. He got smashed, deal with it.

[110oldeast]

I was talking about total playoff experience in Jameer's situation (I was aware that he was out last year for much of the playoffs) and saying that we got swept by a team that was defending Eastern Conference champs and a clearly better team in the same way Detroit was clearly better. I wasn't saying he had played the exact same amount of games that Chauncey had. I was simply saying that some of this is a rash reaction and that Orlando could have had the same reaction then, but didn't.

I don't know that the margin was really that far apart in that series. Jameer did the "get my numbers in a blowout" in Game 2, scoring half his points in that game and got housed every game giving up high shooting numbers while Chauncey made plays in all 4 games.

Jameer was injured for every playoff series last year besides the Finals (and he shouldn't have played then). Other than that, only the year before has he played in more than one series. He may be more experienced, but not by anywhere near the same margin as Chauncey was in the Pistons/Magic series.

I'm not scapegoating JUST Felton and I never was. Jack and Doris both got their bottoms spanked just as badly.

Using DJ's stats alongside Ray work in that he's shown that he can, at least, fill in for Ray. He would be a defensive drop off, but an offensive improvement. However much the two balance out depends on his mindset next year.


I'm not discounting the contributions Ray made to the team. However it can't be ignored that we had a .250 winning % before Jack and a .586 % after he arrived. That trade made the difference in our season. There's no way around that.

[DY_nasty]

6 TOs in the entire series. 1.5 per game. 3.3 a/t ratio. Just over 2 TOs per game during the season.

Can you please tell me about all these dumb TOs?

Not fighting through screens? You realize that if one guy has to fight through, the other has to show. Otherwise, you go under or switch. Besides, that being a longtime issue with him is news to me. Again, these issues seemed to be greatly eliminated when TT or TC showed, but again that's all coincidence.

I'm not coddling anything. I said before I would have rather him be aggressive than to continue deferring to a guy who shot 29% in the games we could have won while turning it over the most as well. I said that he should have been more aggressive attacking the basket and making plays.

The TEAM got swept, competed closely in 3 of 4 games against a big mismatch and did so with their top scorer being way below par and all the words are about Felton?

Again, break away from the script. Felton certainly could have played better, but the fall guy stuff is overdone. So is saying he has not improved this year and that he made all these "untimely, stupid turnovers."

Again, that's my issue with this. It's clear many folks have been ready for him to be gone and had their reasons for it and are throwing them out whether they applied or not.

1) A dumb pass is one that can lead to a turnover for someone else. Though it may not be credited to the initial passer, he is responsible.
2) You fight through screen on shooters. Always. Is Orlando a team that likes to shoot the 3? JAX fought through screens, Wallace did too. What did Ray do? Not move his feet even when picks didn't come. If he's getting beat that bad, he needs to communicate better. This is simple stuff.
3) Jackson held Orlando's most explosive scorer for almost the entire series. Also, he was one of the only two guys being guarded on the Bobcats. Ray wasn't even being guarded on the perimeter for the entire series. Stan said so himself. What is Ray's excuse? Complete lack of respect shown for everyone on the team outside of Wallace and Jackson, and guess what? Everyone was apparently cool with it. (Except Tyrus... at least he did what he could)
4) The team got swept. Yeah, but what happens when teams get swept? Fingers get pointed. Sweeps happen because of major flaws in teams, whats ours?

[110oldeast]

I appreciate the generic discussion in dumb passes.

Fighting on the wing and fighting on the ball screens are 2 different things. Vince exploited Jack in game 4 with a lot of on ball screens. Furthermore, he missed plenty of wide open looks throughout the series.

Part of folks doubling of Jack is his unwillingness to make quick and consistent kickouts. It's not simply a matter of other players not being good. He would prefer to either: a) Shoot his way out of the double team or b) make a spectacular pass that shows off his passing creativity; and almost only will make a pass if it directly can lead to an individual assist, but not one that will keep the offense moving or make the pass that leads to the pass.

Our team has flaws, but I also know that the only 2 times we legitimately were in position to beat Orlando in regulation, an offensively assertive Felton was a part of it. I again don't see him as the weight around the team's throat that he is being made out to be.

As much as folks don't want to hear it, he led the team in 3 pt shooting for the bulk of the year, so for him to be a horrible shooter really says something about the other 3 pt shooting on our team.

I just think that folks have had their mind made up about him and this series has provided an excuse for folks to come out say it, as there was no room to during the season.

1) A dumb pass is one that can lead to a turnover for someone else. Though it may not be credited to the initial passer, he is responsible.
2) You fight through screen on shooters. Always. Is Orlando a team that likes to shoot the 3? JAX fought through screens, Wallace did too. What did Ray do? Not move his feet even when picks didn't come. If he's getting beat that bad, he needs to communicate better. This is simple stuff.
3) Jackson held Orlando's most explosive scorer for almost the entire series. Also, he was one of the only two guys being guarded on the Bobcats. Ray wasn't even being guarded on the perimeter for the entire series. Stan said so himself. What is Ray's excuse? Complete lack of respect shown for everyone on the team outside of Wallace and Jackson, and guess what? Everyone was apparently cool with it. (Except Tyrus... at least he did what he could)
4) The team got swept. Yeah, but what happens when teams get swept? Fingers get pointed. Sweeps happen because of major flaws in teams, whats ours?

[DY_nasty]

I appreciate the generic discussion in dumb passes.

Fighting on the wing and fighting on the ball screens are 2 different things. Vince exploited Jack in game 4 with a lot of on ball screens. Furthermore, he missed plenty of wide open looks throughout the series.

Part of folks doubling of Jack is his unwillingness to make quick and consistent kickouts. It's not simply a matter of other players not being good. He would prefer to either: a) Shoot his way out of the double team or b) make a spectacular pass that shows off his passing creativity; and almost only will make a pass if it directly can lead to an individual assist, but not one that will keep the offense moving or make the pass that leads to the pass.

Our team has flaws, but I also know that the only 2 times we legitimately were in position to beat Orlando in regulation, an offensively assertive Felton was a part of it. I again don't see him as the weight around the team's throat that he is being made out to be.

I just think that folks have had their mind made up about him and this series has provided an excuse for folks to come out say it, as there was no room to during the season.

Don't be mad be just because I summed up what a dumb passer is for you.

LOL Felton was the one who had us close in game 1 huh? That was all him who got us into that game, Not Jackson huh? I don't even know what other game you're talking about... The other games weren't even close because no one remembered to attack the basket when Dwight leaves the floor. Thats on Larry though.

And call me spoiled, but I'd rather see Jackson jack up a shot from the elbow over Barnes after our crappy offense moves the ball around meaninglessly for 10 seconds instead of seeing Ray throw up that crooked chicken-wing mess of his. Again, for the 3rd time, Ray didn't get nearly the same kind of defensive attention as Wallace and Jack. Of course his shooting percentages would be better. But geez, demand some respect Ray - not just when we're down big and the other team lets off the gas.

And yes, fighting on the wing and on ball screens are two different things - felton did neither, ever, and he saw plenty of both. Jackson keeps Vince on hush mode for 3 out of 4 games, then I call that a successful defensive showing in the playoffs. A guy like Vince was bound to get his eventually.

So yes, blame Jackson for not being the messiah and don't blame Felton for being a bum.

[110oldeast]

Actually, I was speaking to the only 2 times in 12 games against the Magic that we won or were in position to win. And you didn't break a thing down for me. I was simply pointing out how you made a generic statement and then when I showed the hole in what you said, lacked specifics. I was not making a point about the playoff games then.

However, as to your point about Game 1, in the 2nd half, I would say Felton's 14 pts in the 2nd half on 60% shooting was quite significant in us getting back in the game. Of course, no one paid any attention to that as Nelson's 1st half established the verdict on that game. Jack (6-18, 5 TOs) was significant in helping us hang around and get it to 10 and Felton (7-14, 2 TOs) was significant in helping us get it down to 4.

In game 3, Felton had 13 and 6 and had back to back buckets, including the shot that fouled Howard out to get us to within 1 before we ran the play for a wide open look for Jack that he was not close on.

Again, this was not a case of "not messiah" and "bum" as much as it was "below expectations/need" and "below expectations/need."

And please, nobody has been trumpeting Vince for them as all year teams have talked about how much they'll miss Hedo b/c Vince doesn't have "it." This ain't exactly Air Canada.

Finally Jackson is a bad shotmaker. It's his blessing and his curse. He dribbles out of wide open shots into contested shots. He takes bad shots not because he has to, as much as because he prefers to. How many times does he take a wide open shot, wait for someone to contest, and then dribble and shoot? He did it all series. It's a large part of why he seemed so uncomfortable when LB set up that wide open lead changing 3 pt catch and shoot opportunity for him.

Don't be mad be just because I summed up what a dumb passer is for you.

LOL Felton was the one who had us close in game 1 huh? That was all him who got us into that game, Not Jackson huh? I don't even know what other game you're talking about... The other games weren't even close because no one remembered to attack the basket when Dwight leaves the floor. Thats on Larry though.

And call me spoiled, but I'd rather see Jackson jack up a shot from the elbow over Barnes after our crappy offense moves the ball around meaninglessly for 10 seconds instead of seeing Ray throw up that crooked chicken-wing mess of his. Again, for the 3rd time, Ray didn't get nearly the same kind of defensive attention as Wallace and Jack. Of course his shooting percentages would be better. But geez, demand some respect Ray - not just when we're down big and the other team lets off the gas.

And yes, fighting on the wing and on ball screens are two different things - felton did neither, ever, and he saw plenty of both. Jackson keeps Vince on hush mode for 3 out of 4 games, then I call that a successful defensive showing in the playoffs. A guy like Vince was bound to get his eventually.

So yes, blame Jackson for not being the messiah and don't blame Felton for being a bum.