What Exactly Happened To DJ?

[DY_nasty]

Actually, I was speaking to the only 2 times in 12 games against the Magic that we won or were in position to win. And you didn't break a thing down for me. I was simply pointing out how you made a generic statement and then when I showed the hole in what you said, lacked specifics. I was not making a point about the playoff games then.

However, as to your point about Game 1, in the 2nd half, I would say Felton's 14 pts in the 2nd half on 60% shooting was quite significant in us getting back in the game. Of course, no one paid any attention to that as Nelson's 1st half established the verdict on that game. Jack (6-18, 5 TOs) was significant in helping us hang around and get it to 10 and Felton (7-14, 2 TOs) was significant in helping us get it down to 4.

In game 3, Felton had 13 and 6 and had back to back buckets, including the shot that fouled Howard out to get us to within 1 before we ran the play for a wide open look for Jack that he was not close on.

Again, this was not a case of "not messiah" and "bum" as much as it was "below expectations/need" and "below expectations/need."

And please, nobody has been trumpeting Vince for them as all year teams have talked about how much they'll miss Hedo b/c Vince doesn't have "it." This ain't exactly Air Canada.

Finally Jackson is a bad shotmaker. It's his blessing and his curse. He dribbles out of wide open shots into contested shots. He takes bad shots not because he has to, as much as because he prefers to. How many times does he take a wide open shot, wait for someone to contest, and then dribble and shoot? He did it all series. It's a large part of why he seemed so uncomfortable when LB set up that wide open lead changing 3 pt catch and shoot opportunity for him.

What hole? Dumb passers are all over the league. Raymond Felton is one of them. Assist numbers are one the most overblown stats in the league right next to steals. They don't accurately judge how good of a passer a player is. Is Ginobli in the top 10 in assists? No, he's actually averaging few assists per game than Felton. But would you really say that Raymond is a better passer than Manu and risk being called an idiot?

All I remember in Game 3 is getting smacked again. 13 points when opposing coaches tell you to your face that they aren't even going to bother with guarding you is nothing. Nothing. Its embarrassment at the highest level when you are seen as the #3 guy on a team and yet scouts and coaches the league over don't even deem you worthy of constant respect at the perimeter.

I said that Vince is Orlando's most explosive scorer. He is. I never said that he was the most consistent. When Vince goes off, Orlando wins. Its that simple, he didn't even get in a rhythm until game 4. Good job Stephen Jackson, way to contribute consistently through the series even though you're getting more attention from Orlando's defense than anyone else.

Jackson... I never liked. He's the long lost brother of Spreewell. A volume scorer thats quickly becoming obsolete in the NBA. What you're talking about his incredibly slow release when he's pretty much set shooting. It is who he is. Who he is got us to the playoffs. Who he is almost won game 1 for us, and probably would've had he not been injured. Ray... I like him. I defended him plenty of times, but he's not the right fit for this team. Clearly.

[DY_nasty]

Here's something fun for you numbers guys...

Chauncey Billups
Chris Duhon
Raymond Felton

What do they all have in common?

[110oldeast]

Your original post talked about all the dumb TOs and now you have conveniently moved things to dumb passer. You speak in subjectives and state them as absolutes when you don't have anything objective to back them up.

Assist numbers are often a function of how much one handles the ball and how many jump shooters (where most assists happen) there are on a team in conjunction with playmaking abilities.

In the end, neither of us are going to change each other's minds.

And Orlando wins even when Vince doesn't go off, because they are extremely balanced. They are the ultimate pick your poison team. Orlando from the jump saw that we were hung up Dwight and exploited it.

If we were playing Atlanta and team with 3 pt shooting like ours on the wings, allowing us to play our brand of defense, we would likely be playing tomorrow in a Game 7.

They are a bad matchup for us, however we spin it.

What hole? Dumb passers are all over the league. Raymond Felton is one of them. Assist numbers are one the most overblown stats in the league right next to steals. They don't accurately judge how good of a passer a player is. Is Ginobli in the top 10 in assists? No, he's actually averaging few assists per game than Felton. But would you really say that Raymond is a better passer than Manu and risk being called an idiot?

All I remember in Game 3 is getting smacked again. 13 points when opposing coaches tell you to your face that they aren't even going to bother with guarding you is nothing. Nothing. Its embarrassment at the highest level when you are seen as the #3 guy on a team and yet scouts and coaches the league over don't even deem you worthy of constant respect at the perimeter.

I said that Vince is Orlando's most explosive scorer. He is. I never said that he was the most consistent. When Vince goes off, Orlando wins. Its that simple, he didn't even get in a rhythm until game 4. Good job Stephen Jackson, way to contribute consistently through the series even though you're getting more attention from Orlando's defense than anyone else.

Jackson... I never liked. He's the long lost brother of Spreewell. A volume scorer thats quickly becoming obsolete in the NBA. What you're talking about his incredibly slow release when he's pretty much set shooting. It is who he is. Who he is got us to the playoffs. Who he is almost won game 1 for us, and probably would've had he not been injured. Ray... I like him. I defended him plenty of times, but he's not the right fit for this team. Clearly.

[DY_nasty]

Your original post talked about all the dumb TOs and now you have conveniently moved things to dumb passer. You speak in subjectives and state them as absolutes when you don't have anything objective to back them up.

Assist numbers are often a function of how much one handles the ball and how many jump shooters (where most assists happen) there are on a team in conjunction with playmaking abilities.

In the end, neither of us are going to change each other's minds.

And Orlando wins even when Vince doesn't go off, because they are extremely balanced. They are the ultimate pick your poison team. Orlando from the jump saw that we were hung up Dwight and exploited it.

If we were playing Atlanta and team with 3 pt shooting like ours on the wings, allowing us to play our brand of defense, we would likely be playing tomorrow in a Game 7.

They are a bad matchup for us, however we spin it.

Dumb passers make dumb turnovers. You're grasping at nothing now. Nothing is subjective about it. You can argue numbers all day, but when those numbers stop supporting your argument you can't just conveniently disregard them. Something like an opposing coach openly saying that a guy isn't worth guarding means a lot more than a weak 13 & 6 in a beatdown. You still haven't addressed that either by the way.

And thats what I mean by coddling too. He was just dealt the biggest insult that a basketball player can endure, getting abused and being seen as nothing more than a practice cone by opposing coaches and scouts. It is what it is, Felton is THE guy to catch heat. When he was 'the leader' before Stephen Jackson showed up, the team was 3-9. Now that Jackson was here and we were winning, Felton still threw around all that 'i'm the leader' talk during interviews. Well now his mouth has wrote a check that his play just can't cash. Its not even about changing minds, Felton screwed up bad. And now its just a matter how much people like him, and who those people are.

If Vince goes on a scoring tear, odds are that Orlando will win with ease. Thats the point I was making. Atlanta is broken team too... thats got nothing to do with anything and this thread is thoroughly derailed anyways.

[110oldeast]

Whatever man. You said he was making a bunch of stupid TOs. I said he had 6 for the series and asked you about the dumb TOs and you went into a generic conversation. You dodged things, not me.

Please give me your "Felton is not worth guarding" quote from Stan or any Orlando coach.

And the 13 and 6 wasn't in a beatdown. It was in a game where we were down 1 with about a minute to go and the bum had made back to back drives to the basket to get the score there. It's the game where it was followed by a WIDE OPEN 3 from the guy you said always had to shoot with 2 or 3 guys on him. It was a shot that never had a chance and it was a shot where I heard other Bobcats' fans characterize it as a dumb decision by Felton when the coach called a TO and diagrammed that play. It was a game where the guy you say simply "failed to be the messiah" also was 6-18 and 1-7. There was also 13 from Crash and 14 from Hughes when one of the writers said all we needed was someone else to provide 12.

I guess all 7 of those 3s were 3s where he was doubled too, right? I mean besides the one that was diagrammed for him when we were down 1 pt with less than a minute to go.

Dumb passers make dumb turnovers. You're grasping at nothing now. Nothing is subjective about it. You can argue numbers all day, but when those numbers stop supporting your argument you can't just conveniently disregard them. Something like an opposing coach openly saying that a guy isn't worth guarding means a lot more than a weak 13 & 6 in a beatdown. You still haven't addressed that either by the way.

And thats what I mean by coddling too. He was just dealt the biggest insult that a basketball player can endure, getting abused and being seen as nothing more than a practice cone by opposing coaches and scouts. It is what it is, Felton is THE guy to catch heat. When he was 'the leader' before Stephen Jackson showed up, the team was 3-9. Now that Jackson was here and we were winning, Felton still threw around all that 'i'm the leader' talk during interviews. Well now his mouth has wrote a check that his play just can't cash. Its not even about changing minds, Felton screwed up bad. And now its just a matter how much people like him, and who those people are.

If Vince goes on a scoring tear, odds are that Orlando will win with ease. Thats the point I was making. Atlanta is broken team too... thats got nothing to do with anything and this thread is thoroughly derailed anyways.

[DY_nasty]

Whatever man. You said he was making a bunch of stupid TOs. I said he had 6 for the series and asked you about the dumb TOs and you went into a generic conversation. You dodged things, not me.

I spelled it out in one of my earlier posts. If you don't want to read, thats on you.

1) A dumb pass is one that can lead to a turnover for someone else.

Though it may not be credited to the initial passer, he is responsible. Poor spacing, bad reads, late or off target passes, etc. These things all come into play when talking about passing and the continuity of the offense, but we don't know what offense is here. We've become accustomed to mediocrity and have accepted it as inevitable fate. Felton is dumb with the ball more times than not, just like he's screwed the team late as many times as he's saved it in the clutch. He's the very definition of mediocrity in point guard form.

Please give me your "Felton is not worth guarding" quote from Stan or any Orlando coach.

And the 13 and 6 wasn't in a beatdown. It was in a game where we were down 1 with about a minute to go and the bum had made back to back drives to the basket to get the score there. It's the game where it was followed by a WIDE OPEN 3 from the guy you said always had to shoot with 2 or 3 guys on him. It was a shot that never had a chance and it was a shot where I heard other Bobcats' fans characterize it as a dumb decision by Felton when the coach called a TO and diagrammed that play. It was a game where the guy you say simply "failed to be the messiah" also was 6-18 and 1-7. There was also 13 from Crash and 14 from Hughes when one of the writers said all we needed was someone else to provide 12.

I guess all 7 of those 3s were 3s where he was doubled too, right? I mean besides the one that was diagrammed for him when we were down 1 pt with less than a minute to go.

Did I ever say that he was doubled? No, I said that he and Crash were the only players on the team that were apparently worth gameplanning against. Ray was left free to roam while they stacked the paint for the entire series. Also, the very next game Stephen Jackson shot 50% on a bum leg when no one else on the team showed up, not even invincible leader ray ray. Bottom line is that when Jack plays bad, he's still more of a help to this team even when Ray is playing slightly above average. They're not the same caliber of player. What applies to one doesn't apply to the other.

And did you not see Doc Rivers say last year that the Bobcats are beatable by simply playing a zone? That many scouts across the league laid the Bobcats success or failure in the playoffs square in front of Doris and Failton? And if you missed that, then certainly you saw the news sources tell that Stan let the team take Monday off after playing the Bobcats? and maybe days after the realgm headlines that said that Stan is only concerned with stopping Jackson and Wallace? Google homie.

The bobcats being a team loaded with mediocre/below average players isn't some shattering revelation, its been common knowledge for the last two years.

Clearly you don't understand the whole 'failed to be a messiah' metaphor either. You can't blame Jackson for NOT single handedly saving this offensively handicapped team. When that run happened in Game 1, it was Jackson that was setting people up and making things happen. Felton was just along for the ride. As soon as Jack went out, what happened? Whatever we were going on to get back to the top mysteriously vanished! All of a sudden, that run wasn't quite as intense was it? Everyone who wanted the underdog to win was wondering why he couldn't get back into the game - not 'we need Felton!'.

And just to see if you're really crazy or not, are you saying that Felton's 1.5 turnovers per game truly reflect how efficient he was with the ball? Honestly man, there are times when stats are helpful and there are times when they just cloud the obvious. This magical 13/6 performance is supposed to hide his 4 point performance? That wonderful evening is supposed to make his 0/4 behind the 3 point line disappear? His two steals in four games? What standards do you hold Felton too?

I held him to those of a starting point guard of a playoff team, clearly thats too high of a bar for him.

Look, I couldn't care less about Felton's situation with the Bobcats and I'd defend him all the time too. I used to like him as the point guard for this team, but after the season as a whole and the series with Orlando, I'd rather gamble on DJ than see more of the same from Felton, especially at his asking price.

[110oldeast]

Thanks for regurgitating a bunch of Observer write-ups and putting it as universal truths. Again, as I said, you are going by the script. Rick put one thing out by one scout that mentioned Boris and Ray before the series and have extracted it to multiple scouts around the league. It's funny how we beat PLENTY of good teams this season and many of those were in games where Felton played well, making this whole notion bogus. But since you are using so many scripts from the Observer, why don't go to the article about the team just needing a dozen points from someone else to get them over the hump b/c the dynamic duo in Wallace and Jackson could hanldle the rest? B/C in games 1, 3, and 4, we had multiple players (Felton--Gm 1 & 3, Hughes--Gm 3, Thomas--Gm4, and Diaw--Gm 4) do this only for our Batman in Jackson to not get what was expected from him. If we are go by the script, let's break down how the script was wrong on that hypothesis.

When Stephen Jackson went out of Game 1, we went from down 9 or so to down 4 after a quick 5 points from Felton, so it's not like things just stopped. So again, this "along for the ride" (how are 14 pts in the half, 10 in the quarter, just being along for the ride?) notion you wrote is again bogus and incorrect. I REALLY wanted Jack back in the game too, as an assertive Felton playing with him and Wallace is the formula that worked for the Bobcats when they played anyone worth a crap. I wanted him in as them all being assertive would be tougher to guard. You see, on my end, it's not an either/or proposition. I believe in middle ground.

And it's awesome that Jack put up a bunch of points when we were getting blown out. My only question Where was that 50% shooting in the rest of the series when the games were more competitive? 6-18, 6-18, 2-11. I would give more props for the Game 2 performance if there was ANYTHING close to resembling that any of the games. And you really want to bring up Felton's 0-4 from 3 in that game when Jack was 1-7 from 3 in that game, badly missing a wide open set up to take the lead after the "half-clutch bum" hit 5 quick pts to get us within 1 and foul out Howard, 13 during the 3 games we could win? You might want to see more of that than above average play from Felton but that only exposes your bias, not any type of special basketbal acumen. Because it certainly doesn't help the team more. This team was at its best when the pgs assertively ran the offense and allowed Jack to be a SECONDARY ballhandler/playmaker and PRIMARY play completer scorer, NOT primary scorer and playmaker. We lost as much as we won when we went into pure Jack mode and while some folks won't say it now, people complained about this. I blamed the pgs, as much as Jack for that as he is a secondary playmaker, not a primary one. Again, I blame Felton for continually deferring to Jackson as he needed to take a more assertive role in running the team, not putting it in Jack's hands so much.

Finally, if you say you're just holding Felton to the standards of a starting pg of a playoff team, are you holding Jack to the standards of a leading scorer, best player? Nobdoy asked him to be a messiah in any of the 3 games I mentioned, unless shooting above 30% is considered being a messiah.

Again, I am NOT even close to being satisfied with Felton's performance and actually had a post earlier in the series that driectly took to task his being passive. My thing is that I don't think things have to be as extreme as this sports talk radio climate does now. Felton, Wallace, and Jackson were significant in us getting to the dance. Playing against one of the best defensive teams in the league, none were at the level they had been all year. I just think a disproportionate amount of it is being thrown Felton's way.

I spelled it out in one of my earlier posts. If you don't want to read, thats on you.

Though it may not be credited to the initial passer, he is responsible. Poor spacing, bad reads, late or off target passes, etc. These things all come into play when talking about passing and the continuity of the offense, but we don't know what offense is here. We've become accustomed to mediocrity and have accepted it as inevitable fate. Felton is dumb with the ball more times than not, just like he's screwed the team late as many times as he's saved it in the clutch. He's the very definition of mediocrity in point guard form.



Did I ever say that he was doubled? No, I said that he and Crash were the only players on the team that were apparently worth gameplanning against. Ray was left free to roam while they stacked the paint for the entire series. Also, the very next game Stephen Jackson shot 50% on a bum leg when no one else on the team showed up, not even invincible leader ray ray. Bottom line is that when Jack plays bad, he's still more of a help to this team even when Ray is playing slightly above average. They're not the same caliber of player. What applies to one doesn't apply to the other.

And did you not see Doc Rivers say last year that the Bobcats are beatable by simply playing a zone? That many scouts across the league laid the Bobcats success or failure in the playoffs square in front of Doris and Failton? And if you missed that, then certainly you saw the news sources tell that Stan let the team take Monday off after playing the Bobcats? and maybe days after the realgm headlines that said that Stan is only concerned with stopping Jackson and Wallace? Google homie.

The bobcats being a team loaded with mediocre/below average players isn't some shattering revelation, its been common knowledge for the last two years.

Clearly you don't understand the whole 'failed to be a messiah' metaphor either. You can't blame Jackson for NOT single handedly saving this offensively handicapped team. When that run happened in Game 1, it was Jackson that was setting people up and making things happen. Felton was just along for the ride. As soon as Jack went out, what happened? Whatever we were going on to get back to the top mysteriously vanished! All of a sudden, that run wasn't quite as intense was it? Everyone who wanted the underdog to win was wondering why he couldn't get back into the game - not 'we need Felton!'.

And just to see if you're really crazy or not, are you saying that Felton's 1.5 turnovers per game truly reflect how efficient he was with the ball? Honestly man, there are times when stats are helpful and there are times when they just cloud the obvious. This magical 13/6 performance is supposed to hide his 4 point performance? That wonderful evening is supposed to make his 0/4 behind the 3 point line disappear? His two steals in four games? What standards do you hold Felton too?

I held him to those of a starting point guard of a playoff team, clearly thats too high of a bar for him.

Look, I couldn't care less about Felton's situation with the Bobcats and I'd defend him all the time too. I used to like him as the point guard for this team, but after the season as a whole and the series with Orlando, I'd rather gamble on DJ than see more of the same from Felton, especially at his asking price.

[BobCatsFanInTx]

I know this is a thread about DJ, so I apologize for going off topic, but I think this is a little unfair. Boris definitely struggled to find his role earlier in the year after we traded for Jackson and didn't play well for a stretch, but after the all-star break, he was pretty solid. He hit double figures in 29 of the last 35 games and had some pretty stellar performances. Even flirted with a triple-double on several occasions. I thought he was key to our ability to attack zone defenses with his passing ability. Yeah there were times when we probably needed him to be more assertive offensively, but to say he "consistently" hurt us just isn't true, especially the second half of the year.

I'd be the first to say I'd like to see TT get more of the minutes at PF, maybe even start, but Boris is a talented player who helped us this year and will help us next year too if he's here.

I agree that Boris played well for a time but let's face it DJ is getting heat for not playing well for the SEASON. Boris is no different. I don't know if Boris suffers some mental lapses or what but he is not consistent enough. Neither is DJ but DJ is much younger and is still learning. During the early regular season and playoffs Boris reminded me of Emeka. He seemed to be nonchalantly going down the quart and not motivated. I will give him a pass on that however because in the playoffs most of our whole team seemed to be out of it. Orlando deserves some credit for that. They have a great defense and our Bobcats lack offensive fire power.

At the end of the day I think Boris is the most replaceable on our team. I like Boris okay but if we are going to throw anyone under the bus I feel he is the guy suited for that. Boris is a better offensive threat than what he gave us. DJ had a sophomore slump and it happens to a lot of players. I just think we need another PF with some post moves. Our Bobcats have needed that for a long time. Either that or we need some sharp shooters.

[KT#20]

Not against trading Felton, but letting him walk would solve nothing. Keep Augustin and Felton together, and hope that you'll get the best of both. Had '09 Augustin shown up at all this season, we wouldn't have played the Magic and would have had a very legitimate shot of getting out of the first round.

[DY_nasty]

If you think that we could've won Game 1 without Stephen Jackson coming back into the game, you're an idiot. Its just that simple.

If Kobe shoots 20%, you don't demand that he gets shipped out. If Bosh goes without a rebound until the 3rd, you don't say that Amir Johnson is a better player. If Joe Johnson goes down, you don't say that Atlanta is a better team without him. If the Rockets scrap and make it to the 2nd round, you don't automatically assume that they're a better team without Yao. Some guys earn their paychecks just by stepping on to the court, and this season, Stephen Jackson has been that guy for us every single night.

He's not here and we're fishing in the lottery again, not to mention unanimously lol'ing at the idea that Felton is worth keeping around. Now that Jack comes in and makes life easier for all, you're really going to go after him because of just one dimension of his game?

... you guys might be lost. After watching crappy basketball for so long, you think that career role players should get the same treatment as top 10 players of their position.