good maybe we can waive his contract for medical reasons.
sorry i've haven't been online , i would of responded alot earlier .Originally Posted by Plowright
yao , grant hill made the all-star gm without playing any min does that count lol .
forreal, i can name about 15-30 players who became all-stars after avg 25 min a game. my point was that his min vs production output were all-star like , you lost the whole concept .
Last edited by gm in training; 09-08-2012 at 01:26 PM.
gmit - I wanted to take a look at your claims objectively and try to see what you are looking at. I understand maybe if you are a big Tyrus fan, or maybe you are enticed by his flashes of talent and potential, but there is a ton more circumstantial evidence that points his trajectory the other way.
I can say that I too thought he had some elite physical talent and decent skill set coming out of college, and perhaps potential to become a really nice player. He is long, a great leaper, fast, and has a good midrange shooting touch.
The problem is, that despite a nice toolkit to become great, this doesn't always translate to becoming a star. Other variables, like basketball IQ, willingness to listen and learn, buying in to a team concept, and selflessness - all the variables that can separate elite talent - are just as important as physical talent.
Take Lamar Odom. His talent and abilities are hall of fame caliber - at 6'10, he has point guard ball handling and passing skills, he has 3 point shooting range, can be unstoppable off the dribble or in the post, can be a double digit rebounder, and can score 20-30 points in his sleep. But he will never be considered for the hall because the extra variables aren't there. He didn't always buy in to the team, didn't have the drive, and never put everything together.
This claim is what everyone is objecting to, and why it seems like they're all piling on. You can't just make a claim like this, even if it is just an opinion, without Tyrus ever showing any trend, consistency, or enough flash to be considered a superstar, or enough to even project that he could get there one day. A superstar is a top 10-15 player, and it takes 2-3 seasons of high level consistency and game changing ability, with actual results, to be considered a superstar. A few good games can never put a player into consideration for a superstar.
Now to go deeper into the numbers, the bolded numbers aren't really that amazing. Even simply doubling them, it would be 20 points and 12 rebounds in 50 minutes, which are obviously averages for more than a game. While nice, they aren't superstar numbers, especially since his production wouldn't stay at the same level with more minutes.
Looking at your claim of him being a star for his stats in under 25 minutes, this means that you believe his production based on his minutes must be elite. So then this means that extending his stats per-36-minutes should show this great efficiency and production. But the stats don't back this up, and shows that they are very pedestrian. Here are the comparisons with other tall, athletic forwards:
Per 36 Minutes (Career)
Tyrus Thomas
14.1 pts; 8.9 rbds; 2.4 blks; 44% FG
Carl Landry
17.6 pts; 7.4 rbds; .7 blks; 54% FG
Leon Powe
16.1 pts; 9.9 rbds; .9 blks; 52% FG
J.J. Hickson
15.2 pts; 9.7 rbds; 1 blcks; 49% FG
Hakim Warrick
16.9 pts; 7.2 rbds; .5 blks; 49% FG
Stromile Swift
15.3 pts; 8.4 rbds; 2.3 blks; 47% FG
Every player averaged more points than Tyrus, and every player shot a better percentage than Tyrus. His rebounding numbers were in the middle, and only his blocks were the highest. The thing is, although all of the above players are athletic and long, and had a lot of potential, none of them are superstars. None have even made an allstar game. All have faced injuries, different coaches, being traded (except Stromile), basically the same circumstances as Tyrus. After 6 seasons, most players establish who they are, and I can't see how Tyrus is going to suddenly turn into a star now.
To be fair, he is out of position as both a SF and PF. He is a tweener - too light and weak to bang on the block, not skilled enough to be on the perimeter. Plus, he's been wanting to be a SF all through the years.
I know you acknowledged it in your post, but it really isn't a fair comparison, as these players all established themselves as stars before injury. If, as you claim, Tyrus can regain his natural form, then it would be back to his average stats that he's established, and not to exceed them and become a star.
I do think bad coaches or bad situations can strongly effect how a player produces. But Vinny wasn't his first, or even second coach. Tyrus has played for 5 coaches - Scott Skiles, Jim Boylan, Vinny Del Negro, Larry Brown, and Paul Silas. Lets say we can blame a couple coaches for bad outcomes. However, if you have had 5 coaches, who all have different philosophies and coaching styles, and who have all come to the same conclusion on you, you have to stop blaming the coaches and look at yourself.
The fact of the matter is, if he deserved more than 25 minutes a game, a coach would have played him more. Coaches are trying to keep their jobs, and so they will play the players that give them the best chance to win. So Tyrus' playing time is an indictment of his own play, and cannot be blamed on every coach he's had.
Last edited by QC Thundercats; 09-08-2012 at 05:05 PM.
first off i think you using odom wasn't good because he has 2 rings and his stats always been all-star like . he had about 4-5 seasons where he was snubbed from the all-star game and in his early years because he played on bad teams . odom wasn't a bad teammate or a head case till he reached dallas. he was an all-star type player who bought in to becoming a 6th man(and resigned back in 09,when he could of started elsewhere) and was very unselfish on the court . for the most part he may have had the chance to be a hall of famer but he didn't have any all-star appearances. and not making an all-star game doesn't make him any less because players like josh smith have none, deron williams only made it 3 times in his 8 seasons, zach randolph only made the all-star team once in his career . sometimes it depends on certain situations for recognition but lamar's play or attitude wasn't why he didn't become all-star.
2nd that per 36 min game avg was based off his whole career . i said to disregard his only bad season 11-12(brought down his avg) , and you added it anyway to prove a point. the whole point of me being in defense of tyrus was because he had one bad year. but, if you want to go off of 36 per min avg tyrus would of made the all-star game in 10' and 11'(dont forget the steals). he would of definitely made all-defensive team about 3-4 times.
lean powe was actually really good in his early years but injuries side tracked him because he would of been a celtic starter years ago. some of these 36 per min are very misleading because if he avg about 15 min a game and shot 3 for 6 give or take ,there basing his production off of 54% shooting and equating it with 36 min. also in 10' powe played in only 20 games and had a reb avg of 9.3 and 11' wit memphis he played 16 games and avg 22 points. so that was bad comparison.just like brook lopez he played only 5 games in 2011-12 but avg 3.6 reb but if you would of 36 per his stats he would had a very low rebounding output and we all know for the season he wasn't going to avg 4.8 rebounds.
carl landry im not even goin to start with cause you lost that just adding him the discussion because he's a good offensive post player who don't offer anything else.
hakims was bad also .
hickson was good but he didn't avg you more points,blocks or steals then tyrus (before 2011-12). just rebounds .
after 6 seasons players who made the all-star game or game escalated;chauncy billups, antonio davis ,anthony mason,ben wallace, tyson chandler,marcus camby,gerald wallace and thats to name a few . alot of these players where either injured oft or in the wrong situation. so nothings not possible .
during scott skiles and jim era tyrus was more in the prospect stage so by default it wasn't against tyrus. . tyrus play wasn't why he got traded , he fell out of the team's interest when he broke his arm ,and the organization felt that he was careless and boneheaded , plus they knew he was in his contract year and that he would command big money. nothing warranted that tyrus had a low iq ? he always played great man d,weakside help ,never foul prone, hustle, and played the passing lanes that doesn't sound like low b-ball IQ to me .
low basketball IQ to me is russell westbrook(horrible game management,bad shot selection, the foul in the playoffs),amare( doesn't box out ,or weakside help after like 10 yrs), lamar odom ( just not giving a f**k sometimes), javale mcgee ( being javale mcgee). tyrus doesn't qualify as low basket b-ball IQ, but yeah he probably made some bad decisions like everyone but nothing that can brand him.
your turn .
Last edited by gm in training; 09-08-2012 at 07:47 PM.
I think using Odom is very apropo. I wasn't using him as an example because of his all star snubs or championship rings. I was strictly making the comparison of athletes with elite physical talent or skills who never realized their full potential. I was saying Odom has the tools to be great, but it was other variables that held him back. I don't think he was a bad teammate or selfish on the court or anything. But you have to admit, something was missing, that drive to become great like what Jordan, Kobe, and Lebron have. And he did have issues with going to the bench at first, but settled into the role after Kobe had a good talk with him. And you yourself said Odom has low basketball IQ and doesn't care sometimes. Those are among the many other variables outside of basketball talent and skill that I'm talking about.
So like Odom, I compared Tyrus to him because he has a nice toolset, but he hasn't realized his full potential to date, and may never reach it because of other variables (not necessarily the same as Odom's, but something outside of talent and skills).
Lets take Odom out of the equation if you still don't see it. First, as a disclaimer, player comparisons are hard because no players are exactly alike. My examples are different kinds of players at different positions, but what they have in common is that they all have elite physical talent or skills, and there was something that kept them back. Sean Williams is a player who's built almost exactly like Tyrus. Extremely long and athletic, could block shots at an incredible level, good shooting percentage. But outside of this elite physical talent, other variables were missing, and he couldn't stick in the league. James White is one of the greatest athletes in the world. But despite his elite physical skills and decent shooting, he never stuck in the NBA because he was missing something outside of that talent. Gerald Green is a slightly better version of White, and is only now making it back in the league and hoping to hold on.
I used Odom because he is the most well known example, but there are many players who were held back because of other attributes. Rasheed Wallace could've been an all time great, and I think he had more talent and a better skill set than Duncan and Garnett. But it was those other variables that held him back. See also Darius Miles and Derrick Coleman. I'm trying to paint a spectrum here, players that are better and worse than Tyrus, but all who had elite level tools, and didn't reach their potential. The point I'm making is that having these skills doesn't mean anything if certain other variables are missing.
And in my opinion, I think Tyrus will be held back because of these other variables just like them.
I don't consider Josh Smith a superstar, and I don't think you would either. For Deron, 3 all star games and counting I think is pretty awesome. He may get to 6 or 7 all star games by the time he's done, and I do consider him a star. But I don't see how he's in this discussion, because he's reached his potential and hasn't been sidetracked by variables to hold him back from being a star, unlike everyone else. With Lamar and Zach, they've established themselves as all star caliber, unlike what Tyrus has done thus far. Everyone above has proven themselves with results and consistency, and teams have to gameplan against them.
Its not because Tyrus hasn't made an allstar team that we think he isn't going to be a star. Its because he hasn't established that he's their equal in his basketball abilities. And because you claimed that he's played like a superstar, then it means you think he's better than Lamar Odom, Zach Randolph, Josh Smith, and the like. And none of us agree with that assessment
Okay, I'll take off the 11/12 season:
Tyrus Thomas
14.8 pts; 9.4 rbds; 2.5 blks; 46%FG
Carl Landry
17.6 pts; 7.4 rbds; .7 blks; 54% FG
Leon Powe
16.1 pts; 9.9 rbds; .9 blks; 52% FG
J.J. Hickson
15.2 pts; 9.7 rbds; 1 blks; 49% FG
Hakim Warrick
16.9 pts; 7.2 rbds; .5 blks; 49% FG
Stromile Swift
15.3 pts; 8.4 rbds; 2.3 blks; 47% FG
And... nothing changes. His ranking is exactly the same. Last in points and shooting %, in the middle in rebounds, and best in blocks (and better in steals than everyone, but 1.5 isn't considered greatness). But now the stats are skewed in Tyrus' favor because I didn't take off everyone else's worst season in order to make it even. So even despite this unfairness to the other players, everyone else's stats were still overall better than Tyrus.
This wouldn't work either, because if you use his per 36 stats as his normal averages, then you would have to take everyone else in the league's per 36 stats as their normal averages, and so they still would be above his. And I don't see how he would've made the allstar game over other players who actually produced better stats with their normal averages. Defensively, maybe 9.4 rebounds, 2.5 blocks, and 1.5 steals gets him into consideration for all defense, but not a definite 3-4 times. But like I said, its all relative, you have to use either his actual stats, or use everyone else's per 36 stats to make it even, and he doesn't make the cut.
Last edited by QC Thundercats; 09-08-2012 at 10:31 PM.
Powe's numbers aren't insignificant. Even with injuries, Powe has avereged 14 minutes per game, just 6 less than Tyrus' 20. I think 14 minutes is enough of a sample size to show what you can produce. Maybe 5-10 minutes a game would skew per 36 minute stats out of whack, but if you're getting about 15 minutes, then the numbers would normalize over time, and the fact is that Powe's numbers never dropped, and he produced whenever he got time. And if he never got hurt, I think his per 36 minute stats were reachable by him.
Yes, they play differently, but they are both 6'9 forwards. The difference is, Landry didn't let any variables hold him back. He busted his ass, and was able to become the solid steady player he is. Tyrus may have more talent and potential, but other things are holding him back.
No two players are exactly alike. We're not going to get exact comparisons with anybody. The fact is, Hakim is the same height and weight as Tyrus, both tall skinny forwards who like to stray from the paint. I think its a great comparison. And Hakim has produced better than Tyrus.
The thing is, this counts. Your claim is Tyrus' stats per minute are superstar level, and you didn't count his normal stats, but with Hickson you are. Per 36 shows normalizes everything and shows their efficiency per minute. Hickson's per 36 was higher, regardless of actual playing time - he produced more per minute with less playing time, and produced more per minute with more playing time, regardless of what year it was. And I don't consider Hickson a superstar, despite better stats than Tyrus[/QUOTE]
I don't think its impossible to make an allstar team after 6 seasons. As you listed, many players can do it. But all of these players had established themselves more than Tyrus at 6 seasons. Can Tyrus become an allstar? As Jim Carrey said in Dumb and Dumber:
But in my opinion I don't see it.
This list shows that there is an excuse or reason for everything that hasn't gone well for Tyrus. It seems like nothing was his fault, and outside influences were responsible every single time for 6 years. I think that goes past coincidence at this point. Circumstances can hold you back to a degree, but at some point, a player has to push past that, and Tyrus has yet to do that.
I don't see how you can list all of that, and not see Tyrus right there with them. I've seen Tyrus get the ball on the block, then keep stepping away from the basket to shoot a horrible fade away from 20 feet instead of in close. I've seen him overestimate his ballhandling countless times, and end up turning it over instead of getting to the basket. He could score easier, but he doesn't know how. That is basketball IQ. And he is better on defense, but I've seen him be a space cadet out there and miss assignments. I often question what he is doing out on the court, maybe you don't see the same things I do.
Last edited by QC Thundercats; 09-08-2012 at 10:48 PM.
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