Reply With QuoteCampNightmare8 (02-27-2013)
Well unfortunately a 6'7 power forward unless they are Larry Johnson will never be selected first overall. And I don't question his motor at least on offense. He is a decent shot blocker but other than that he like you said doesn't seem interested in anything else but offense. He has a great motor but seemingly only uses it on one end of the floor.
Oh yeah Olynyk runs the floor better than most bigs but he cannot jump at all and lacks the explosiveness you want to see out of a professional athlete. His height is what gets him rebounds at this level and he isn't an elite rebounder even now and the competition only gets tougher in the NBA.
Just watch this video:
You'll see how much his lack of hops and explosiveness affects him on the glass and defensively on the interior. He can fix this if he follows in the steps of Tim Duncan and Zach Randolph. Both great rebounders and Duncan a great shot blocker and both of them have below average athleticism.
Don't get me wrong I like him as a player. He reminds me of an old school big man with that craftiness and savvy on the offensive end but he definitely has some big holes in his game that he needs to patch up.
Last edited by Wi11iWii; 02-27-2013 at 03:14 PM.
CampNightmare8 (02-27-2013)
So instead of looking at his in game performance you base his athleticism off of a dunk he did in warm ups 3 years ago? You'd be surprised by how many big men can pull off a spectacular dunk in warm ups. A dunk with a running start. As a big man very seldom on rebounds and blocks will you get a running start. Most of the time you will be jumping vertically to contest and get boards as you box out. His athleticism vanishes when you look at tape of him in these situations especially when he has to jump multiple times consecutively or jump quickly.
If he's capable of doing that at any point, it's impressive. Especially for a guy his size. The conditions of the act don't matter much.
I'd appreciate you linking me to "many big men" his size pulling off spectacular dunks
No it's not. If you can't do it consistently then it's hard to believe that it's truly something you are capable of. And the conditions are extremely important. Dwight Howard is said to make 80% of his free throws in practice yet can't hit a free throw to save his life in a game. Not all things a player can do in practice or in warm ups translate into the actual game.
Here is a video of Dwight Howard making a 3 against Denver. By your logic because he was able to hit this rare 3, I am to believe that he is a 3 point shooter. Look, just because you pull something off once does not mean that it's something you can do consistently. Do you truly believe that if Olynyk was that athletic that we wouldn't be putting people on posters? He doesn't not because he doesn't want to. It's because he can't.
Shaq has done 360's in game. He's much larger than Olynyk. Just look at the last 5 or so dunk contests and you'll see big men doing spectacular dunks. It's no longer rare to see big men with superior athleticism. Javale Mcgee, Drummond, Howard, Ibaka, Stoudemire, Griffin, Smith, Garnett, Duncan has even pulled of a windmill, Cousins, Monroe, Anthony Davis. Just look at a basketball game and you'll see big men with more athleticism than Olynyk. I don't have the time nor the desire to link you to every big man that can pull of dunks of equal or better quality than Olynyk. That'd simply take forever.
Last edited by Wi11iWii; 02-27-2013 at 04:52 PM.
I'm failing to see any sort of logical connection between making a three pointer and a windmill 360. Shooting the ball requires no athleticism whatsoever and just about anybody can do it if they attempt it enough times. The dunk I linked to is something not very many people can do period, much less 7 footers.
I'm not saying he's Blake Griffin or Dwight Howard, but you'd be foolish to say he's an average-to-below average athlete for a guy his size.
It's a logical connection because you're attributing him making a dunk once during warm ups as him being a great athlete. I'm merely showing how misguided that logic is by using the fact that Dwight Howard made a 3 in a game to mean that he is a 3 point shooter. It's the same logic that you used. Doing something once means you can consistently do it. And it takes skill to shoot. Am I to believe that Howard has the skill to shoot 40% from deep simply because he made a wide open 3 in a game? How many centers as big as Howard can hit a 3. I'd like to see Bynum and Cousins attempt that. Not anyone can do it. Shooting is more complicated than it looks. Shaq can shoot as many free throws as he wants. Give him 1000 attempts everyday for the rest of his life and he'll still never be a good free throw shooter.
You would think that not many people can do that but you have to realize that you're talking about NBA players. These aren't average guys taken off the street these are the best of the best in the sport of basketball. You give these athletes too little credit.
And well then call me foolish because he is most definitely not an above the rim player. He is an unathletic finesse player and the way he approaches and plays the game reflects that. His athleticism resides in his ability to run the floor and his agility and quick feet for a man his size but as far as leaping goes, this man is far behind the rest. Just look at tape of him playing in actual games and you will see that.
http://www.nbadraft.net/players/kelly-olynyk
There's another scouting report on him which also talks about his lack of athleticism and his below the rim finesse game. Its just insane to believe that someone consistently capable of extraordinary feats of athleticism would refuse to do so. It's that simple. If he could do it, he would. Players play to their strengths. If he had that kinda leaping ability you'd see him use it as it'd be a very strong point in his game and would result in more rebounds and blocks.
They're completely different actions, but whatever you want to believe. I'm not using that one clip as the SOLE reason for him being a good athlete. I'm using it as an example. The truth is bad athletes cannot do that. You don't get lucky and hit a windmill 360. It just doesn't happen unless you have enough athleticism to do so.
You can take my girlfriend to the gym and let her shoot three after three. She'll make one eventually. She won't, however, ever be able to grab the net, much less dunk, much less do what Olynyk did in that clip. Physical limits are much more definite than skill limits. I still cannot fathom how you can use shooting a three as a similar act to dunking a ball.
7 footers are typically too big and heavy to make acrobatic plays, much less dunks. The odds of finding a 7 footer capable of doing that dunk are much smaller than smaller players, even assuming an equal sample size. It just isn't common. great athletes for huge guys are average athletes by smaller guy standards. Just go look at Blake and Dwight's vertical compared to smaller players.
I've seen plenty of Olynyk tape to be able to see that athleticism is absolutely not the aspect of his game that prevents him from being a better rebounder or shot blocker. I've already mentioned the fact that he grew up as a guard and didn't become a post player until late in his career. He simply does not have the mindset to be a banger at this point and is still learning the nuances of playing like a big instead of a guard.
Again. I'm not saying he's a future dunk contest participant or the guy who will lead the league in highlight plays. I'm just saying he's far from being an athletic liability in the NBA and will have no problem hanging with the rest of the bigs in the league.
And scouting reports also compare Shabazz to MKG. Forgive me if I take any of those with a grain of salt
Last edited by SWedd523; 02-27-2013 at 07:30 PM.
You can't see the forest through the trees. You're missing the entire basis of the comparison. You focus solely on the specifics that you completely miss the general idea. But I digress. Skill limits and physical limits are really in the same boat when you talk about being able to do something at the highest level of a sport. It's not like we're talking about being able to shoot a 3 at a little league level. The comparison was of logic. Simply doing something once isn't indicative of ability. Doing it consistently is. But again I digress.
And no offense but an NBA 3 is a long way from the basket if you've ever played on a regulation court before. That takes strength to shoot it accurately. She may make a 3 once but that doesn't mean she is a sharpshooter. I showed you a video full of tape from Olynyk playing throughout multiple games THIS SEASON and you ignored the entire video which shows his lack of leaping ability to show me a single clip of a dunk during warm ups before a game 3 YEARS AGO. I don't know what happened to that guy in that video but he clearly isn't the same player now. Maybe it's the hair idk. He has about as much explosiveness now as a roman candle. When evaluating a guy you don't look at their one moment of greatness. You look at their consistency to see if they can pull of that greatness on a regular basis.
Olynyk isn't very big for a center. He's tall yes but he's 238. He isn't carrying the weight that Greg Oden, Bynum, Shaq, Drummond, and Cousins carry. So it's senseless to talk about him being a great athlete for a huge guy because if you put him up against his peers of similar size his athleticism is poor. Those 7 footers with slender builds these days are very athletic. And of course they don't have the athleticism of smaller guys. I know their verticals aren't very high in comparison to smaller players which makes feats like Olynyk's dunk less impressive. You don't have to jump but so high to slam the ball when you have a 7 ft wing span and you're already 7 ft tall. I've seen KG do windmills and Shaq did a 360 with the Lakers and they barely jumped to do so.
But this is beside the point. It doesn't take very long to see that Olynyk is not that consistent athlete from that video. I've seen my share of his games and his lack of vertical leap stop him from getting plenty of boards. The theme is he jumps to get the board and with that tall frame he reaches up but can't manage to get those long arms of his high enough to get the board even when he boxes out. I've seen too many times where he executes a perfect box out and gets out leaped for the ball as someone taps it from him.
That's a load of bologna as they say because Mclemore the top rated shooting guard in the draft class started off as a PF and yet has no problem playing SG. Anthony Davis was a guard as well and was the best player in last year's draft with the ability to play defensively in the post and rebound. Thats just a bad excuse because in both football and basketball athletes are switched over from their original positions and don't struggle at all. Ladanian Tomlinson was a QB in high school for goodness sake. Players are always forced to switch their positions but they compensate. I don't care what position you play everyone in the world knows how to jump. No amount of knowledge of the Center position will help you jump higher. He has to get stronger to help himself box out better and learn some tricks to the trade such as spin moves and swim moves and rips to get to the spot first but all of that knowledge will not help him if he can't find a way to time those baby jumps better and utilize his frame to get boards cuz his jumping ability so far is leading him to be a mediocre rebounder.
You must be crazy if you think that he can even compare to NBA bigs in athleticism if you've actually watched him play this season. Like I said before though. That video of him throwing down that nasty dunk, 3 years old. The in game tape of him barely getting off the floor, this season. So yeah you decide which one you'll go with but i'll take the most recent tape that's from multiple games this season that are actual games.
And the scouting reports i've seen say Harden and Latrell Sprewell. I see where the MKG comes from because of his strength and driving ability but i've not seen a single scouting report comparing him to MKG. I use draftexpress and nbadraft.net along with a little personal analysis though. But those sites are spot on with their evaluations. And both say Olynyk can run but can't jump and the tape agrees.
No they aren't even remotely close. If you really think there is any sort of parallel between shooting a three and doing a windmill 360 then there seriously isn't an argument to be had and it's better I stop wasting my time with it.Originally Posted by Wi11iWii
No offense but I know how far away an NBA 3 is. I've been on a number of courts, including the one in that Charlotte arena. If I get into a rhythm, I wouldn't have any trouble hitting 6-8 out of 10 from NBA range and I'm a short white guy. Go to any gym anywhere and you'll see a lot of people capable of being reliable shooters, but very few are capable of dunking. Even less so capable of doing what Olynyk did.And no offense but an NBA 3 is a long way from the basket if you've ever played on a regulation court before. That takes strength to shoot it accurately. She may make a 3 once but that doesn't mean she is a sharpshooter.
Do you seriously think he's lost that explosiveness going from an 18 year old to a 21 year old? It doesn't matter which sample size you want to go with, you don't see very many big guys capable of doing that. You just don't. I've said multiple times that the clip I showed you isn't indicative of his overall athletic ability and isn't used to say he's in the Blake Griffin tier. I used it to say he's much more athletic than a........ roman candleI showed you a video full of tape from Olynyk playing throughout multiple games THIS SEASON and you ignored the entire video which shows his lack of leaping ability to show me a single clip of a dunk during warm ups before a game 3 YEARS AGO. I don't know what happened to that guy in that video but he clearly isn't the same player now. Maybe it's the hair idk.
Show me a clip of Oden, Bynum, or Cousins doing what Olynyk did in that one clip. If it isn't that hard to do, you shouldn't have much difficulty providing examples. Drummond and Shaq are physical freaks of nature. They're very much the exception to any sort of norm.Olynyk isn't very big for a center. He's tall yes but he's 238. He isn't carrying the weight that Greg Oden, Bynum, Shaq, Drummond, and Cousins carry.
7'0 238 for a 21 year old is far from "not very big for a center". This is another argument not worth having.
Yet again, I'm not trying to say he's an elite athlete. Just that he's far from "poor". If you disagree, then whatever. It doesn't hurt my feelings.So it's senseless to talk about him being a great athlete for a huge guy because if you put him up against his peers of similar size his athleticism is poor
So he can do something you've seen guys like KG and Shaq do? Hmm, seems like that's pretty good company to keep.Those 7 footers with slender builds these days are very athletic. And of course they don't have the athleticism of smaller guys. I know their verticals aren't very high in comparison to smaller players which makes feats like Olynyk's dunk less impressive. You don't have to jump but so high to slam the ball when you have a 7 ft wing span and you're already 7 ft tall. I've seen KG do windmills and Shaq did a 360 with the Lakers and they barely jumped to do so.
What a terrible argument to make. McLemore is 6'4 in shoes. The only reason he played as a PF (if he even did) is because he was playing in high school where actual height is much harder to come across. Davis is another freak of nature and was considered a generational talent by many people. Just because he's been able to grow rapidly without much delay in growing into his frame and learning how to play the game differently doesn't mean Olynyk isn't capable. For all we know, he's just on a slower learning curve.That's a load of bologna as they say because Mclemore the top rated shooting guard in the draft class started off as a PF and yet has no problem playing SG. Anthony Davis was a guard as well and was the best player in last year's draft with the ability to play defensively in the post and rebound.
Another bad argument. Guards don't spend nearly the same amount of time learning the art of rebounding. It's not uncommon to see young guys hit a huge growth spurt and be forced to play down low where they aren't used to their much larger frame and don't have the repetition or experience playing down low. It's a process. I don't care who you are, if you spend your entire life as a perimeter player... then add 7 inches in a growth spurt before going to college, you're probably going to spend a long time adjusting to a completely different style of play.Players are always forced to switch their positions but they compensate. I don't care what position you play everyone in the world knows how to jump. No amount of knowledge of the Center position will help you jump higher. He has to get stronger to help himself box out better and learn some tricks to the trade such as spin moves and swim moves and rips to get to the spot first but all of that knowledge will not help him if he can't find a way to time those baby jumps better and utilize his frame to get boards cuz his jumping ability so far is leading him to be a mediocre rebounder.
Go read any of the interviews where Olynyk admits that he's been used to playing on the perimeter and has had to go through a lot of learning and adjustment as he moves more into the paint. He still plays a lot as a stretch big, which explains his lack of dominant rebounding. Simple statistics would say the less time you spend in the paint, the less opportunity you have to gobble up rebounds. Ask Byron Mullens.
NBADraft.net had Shabazz as an MKG comparison for a very long time. But it doesn't matter, both them and DX have been wrong on comparisons and writeups on numerous occasions. They certainly are far from infallible. One of the most popular lulzworthy ones: http://nbadraft.net/players/deshawn-stevensonAnd the scouting reports i've seen say Harden and Latrell Sprewell. I see where the MKG comes from because of his strength and driving ability but i've not seen a single scouting report comparing him to MKG. I use draftexpress and nbadraft.net along with a little personal analysis though. But those sites are spot on with their evaluations. And both say Olynyk can run but can't jump and the tape agrees.
But on the whole, this argument is pointless. I'm not going to sit here and type out a short story back and forth on whether or not we agree on Olynyk's athleticism. I think he's more than capable of holding his own in a league where guys like Roy Hibbert, Zach Randolph, Al Jefferson, and Andrew Bynum are top flight big men. You're more than welcome to disagree.
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