Bismack and his subtle improvement

[dnbman]

Bogg said:

He's a long-term project, he was always a long-term project, and the team doesn't have any better options right now. Just let the guy play and get some experience and don't get so hung up on the game-to-game box scores. Maybe he'll pan out, maybe he won't, but he has shown some encouraging development lately.

I agree with that, especially the part about get hung up on box scores. I believe that he is showing enough to continue to believe that he will develop nicely.

Did you know who Ben Wallace was when he was 19? No you did not. You didn't know him until his second year with the Pistons, and he sure didn't have 2 dpoys at 20 either.

Exactly. Wallace was 26 years old before anybody paid any attention to him, and he was a kid who grew up in America around basketball.

Its a perfectly legit comparison although i tend to think it puts an unnecessary ceiling on Biz.

I don't mean to put any kind of ceiling (offense?) or undo pressure (DPofY) on the kid to live up to something, but I definitely believe he can become a serious force in the NBA in a couple of seasons, which is more than reasonable for a guy so raw coming into the league.

[SJackson1]

he's averaging 7.3 RPG and 1.8 BPG in nly 26 mins per game !. I think he his going to be a very solid player in the future and potential all star qualty if he continues improving.

[Bogg]

What part of his statement are you not getting? Did you know who Ben Wallace was when he was 19? No you did not. You didn't know him until his second year with the Pistons, and he sure didn't have 2 dpoys at 20 either. Its a perfectly legit comparison although i tend to think it puts an unnecessary ceiling on Biz.

I understand what he's saying, I'm saying that at this point the only things that Biz and Wallace have in common are the ability to alter a bunch of shots and a non-existent offensive game.

As far as saying that because Wallace wasn't on the national radar at 20 then anyone with potential can be compared to him - I shouldn't have to explain that an undrafted community college player, entering the league at 22, going from NBA journeyman to record-setting star center in his late twenties is a one-off anomaly.

Hell, as a lottery pick taken purely for his physical gifts, with a poor understanding of the game and an undeveloped offensive skill set entering the league, Biz has more in common with Tyrus than Wallace. Biz just doesn't seem to be a dickhead and appears to want to improve, which gives him a better shot at panning out than Thomas.

[Mustachio]

I understand what he's saying, I'm saying that at this point the only things that Biz and Wallace have in common are the ability to alter a bunch of shots and a non-existent offensive game.

As far as saying that because Wallace wasn't on the national radar at 20 then anyone with potential can be compared to him - I shouldn't have to explain that an undrafted community college player, entering the league at 22, going from NBA journeyman to record-setting star center in his late twenties is a one-off anomaly.

Hell, as a lottery pick taken purely for his physical gifts, with a poor understanding of the game and an undeveloped offensive skill set entering the league, Biz has more in common with Tyrus than Wallace. Biz just doesn't seem to be a dickhead and appears to want to improve, which gives him a better shot at panning out than Thomas.

Fair enough. but I don't think DNB was comparing life stories as much as the altering shots and non-existent offensive game. In life story, of course Biz is nothing like Ben. It just seemed as though you were saying Biz can never live up to that. Obviously a lofty goal to be a 2 time dpoy and win a championship, but because hes only 20 I think its silly to cap him, when everytime he suits up you can see him getting better.

[Bogg]

Fair enough. but I don't think DNB was comparing life stories as much as the altering shots and non-existent offensive game. In life story, of course Biz is nothing like Ben. It just seemed as though you were saying Biz can never live up to that.

What I was saying is that Ben Wallace was far, far more than a big who blocked a bunch of shots and struggled on offense. Wallace was a truly elite defender that did everything on that side of the court well and anchored the defense of what should have been a dynasty, had Dumars not botched the '03 draft so badly. Bismack isn't even a good defender, just a good shot-blocker, and would struggle to get playing time on a good chunk of playoff teams right now. Biyombo eventually becoming that type of player is technically possible, but the gulf between that theoretical day and today is so wide that it's almost pointless discussing if he'll ever get there.

Just let him play and learn without any grandiose projections. With any luck, he'll be a solid roleplayer next season with plenty more room to grow.

Obviously a lofty goal to be a 2 time dpoy and win a championship, but because hes only 20 I think its silly to cap him, when everytime he suits up you can see him getting better.

Wallace won 4 DPOYs, made 6 all-defense squads(5 first-team), 5 all-NBA teams, and led the NBA in rebounding multiple times. For the middle part of last decade there wasn't a better defensive player in the league. Don't undersell Wallace as a defensive roleplayer who had a few good years.

[QC Thundercats]

I can only speak for myself, but I was one of those who has in fact made the Wallace/Bismack and MKG/Pippen comparisons. But my reasoning was never that those hall of famers are who our players will become one day.

My whole point was always that we need to be patient with our young guys and not write them off after only a few months or a couple years, because see what can happen if you actually let a guy develop. Pip and Big Ben looked like average role players for several seasons starting their careers, and this was when they were already 22-23. MKG and Biz look like average role players in their first seasons, and they're only teenagers. Will they be hall of famers or career role players? We just don't know yet, just like those other guys were a mystery. The thing is, it's impossible to tell until you give them a full chance, and we just need to see their progression over several seasons first to better gauge it.

So whats a good sample size? How about the length of their rookie contract. It was enough to see that Felton and DJ weren't worth a large investment, and enough to see that Hendo won't become great, but also enough time to see that Kemba wasn't as bad as he seemed last year, and if he keeps progressing can be an all-star, face of the franchise type player.

If Biz isn't a 4 time DPOY, but is only a double digit rebounder and a regular member of the 1st or 2nd all defensive team, I'd consider that a huge success and would be thrilled with it.

Also, as to Biz's life story, it is absolutely relevant when you consider the trajectory of his potential. Tyrus and Ben grew up playing ball, were all state in high school, and had a chance to hone their skills and prove it in college. Their career arc slopes up nicely to a point, where Tyrus plateaued and is on the decline because of his poor attitude and lack of work ethic, and where Ben plateaued for a few seasons then shot up higher because of his work ethic and great attitude.

From where Biz started out and the age he started, his trajectory is exponentially higher to even be able to compete in the NBA in the first place. For him to grow that quickly, and with his attitude and work ethic, his arc seems like it would follow Ben's much more likely then it would follow Tyrus'.

[SJackson1]

lets not forget that Biyombo is only 20 and MKG is only 19 !!

[Wi11iWii]

Biyombo is 20 and is a long term project player. He isn't even scratching the surface yet. It takes a while for young player to develop and even longer when those young players are bigs. Bigs develop slower than wing players. That's just simple fact. Biyombo was nowhere near NBA ready when he entered the draft, lacking some skills that are basic to any basketball player yet alone a pro. However it cannot be ignored that Biyombo has tremendous potential. He is already showing flashes of a jump hook in the post and improving finishing skills along with his already great shot blocking. He will only get better and is already making strides in his game that go mostly unnoticed because of the poor frontcourt play in general and poor record of the Bobcats. If you're looking at the Bobcats with the idea of them winning in the next 2 years then you are looking at their roster from the wrong angle. Looking out 4-5 years when these young talents on this roster begin to fully develop is more appropriate and in my opinion it is something to be excited about. The Thunder were trash for a long time but now look at them. Give young players a chance to develop and grow as a unit and it'll pay off tremendously.

[gamecocksmitty4]

Anybody who doubts Biz's improvement needs to watch this video from before his draft. He was missing 4 foot shots against freaking air!

[Bogg]

The Thunder were trash for a long time but now look at them. Give young players a chance to develop and grow as a unit and it'll pay off tremendously.

The Thunder won 50 games in their second season in Oklahoma City. They were bad for two years, including Durants' rookie year in Seattle. That's what happens when you hit on Durant, Jeff Green, Westbrook, Ibaka, and Harden over the course of three consecutive drafts and do a smart job of keeping/adding low-cost veterans.