Reply With QuoteOh, Hendo can be average 20 ppg alright. On about 35% shooting.
Originally Posted by adam187
i specifically stated hendo and the bobcats 1&2 and sessions vs walker. u went looking for threads i created before free agency even started ? in three of my quotes that you posted ,i clearly stated that i was in favor of sessions , which you called me out on . you proved my point more than i could. also i posted way more sessions support then that but you hand picked certain ones.
ive admitted that tyrus looked shot this year.
ok, i kinda was tripping with hendo being a max guy lol but he is in the range of 7-11 honestly . i still feel hendo is a top 20 talent .
taylor really isnt playing significant minutes , and at that time i posted that when ppl was stating he was going to avg around 30 min .
all my predictions were before the season even started . im known for making bold posts and taking chances ,ur thread was to show sessions appreciation meaning you had to make an season assessment ,thus you posting your thread ,so you pretty much didnt take a chance , your sessions thread was more of an cause and an effect.
Oh, Hendo can be average 20 ppg alright. On about 35% shooting.
Man Gmit, do you save up all your thoughts a few weeks at a time and then unleash your threads on the board? Anyway, I'll try to be brief.
I'm trying to follow your stats here, but I'm not sure how you're formulating them. Are you basing them on Hendo's best games of the month and comparing them to the rest of the players' entire months? Or are you taking out all of their games less than 30 minutes as well, and averaging out their best games? Because if not, that would be skewing it towards Hendo and artificially raising his ranking without adjusting everyone else.
But besides that, I just wanted to check the stats for February alone, as thats easiest to find. Plus, the one game Hendo played less, he had 24 minutes and scored 15 points, which is his average scoring for the month, so throwing it out won't change much. Editing your list after checking ESPNs stats, I only saw this:
44% percent - ranked 33 among shooting guards
5.3 reb- 7th among shooting guards
2.4 assist -24th among shooting guards
4.8 free throw attempts- 6th among shooting guards
1.11 stls- 14 among shooting guards
15.4 ppg- 14 among shooting guards
27% - 47th among shooting guards
First, I think it's misleading to say he has those rankings amongst guards, because it actually is just for shooting guards only. Point guards are guards too, then there's the small guards who are primarily shooting guards, then the small forwards who also swing over to the 2.
The rebounds and free throw attempts are nice, his scoring and steals are solid, his assists are pedestrian, and his shooting has become poor. So those stats to me say he is a solid player and someone who can find a role on any team, but he's not a transcendent talent that any team will kick themselves for missing out on.
I think he's a good player that can do a lot of things, but at his own position, he is just an average starter (12-18 range). If he is that ranking at his own position, then it is not reasonable to say that he is a top 20 player in this league, as each position has a dozen players more valuable than Hendo too (except maybe centers).
15 points is nice, not great. But even so, I think the issue isn't that he can't score more, it's that he doesn't have that assertive, aggressive mentality all the time. When he's aggressive like he was against the Magic, thats exactly the kind of player we need. Problem is he doesn't bring it all the time like that, as that isn't his personality - he just sits back and defers too much. So thats why people think Shabazz would be an upgrade, because he's more dynamic, aggressive, and just has that score all the time mentality. Hendo just prefers to fit in, not destroy people.
Well, having just one dominant scorer doesn't work in this league, outside of Hakeem and the Rockets. Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Anthony - they can't go far just by being the only dominant scorer. Only when those guys minus Anthony had someone to share the load did they win. Two is better than one. Three is better than two. Four may be too many, but either way, to say having two dominant scorers doesn't work well isn't the right argument to make, and then listing some of the most dominant personalities of this era doesn't invalidate having two great scorers.
In your examples, Deron's cankles have been shot up with cortisone 3 separate times this year, so he's not the same player. The Iverson/Melo team was not very well constructed, Stoudemire has been injured for much of the time and is a shell of his former self, Kobe and Pau worked well, Kobe and Shaq were unstoppable, this years soap opera doesn't invalidate those previous duos.
With Lebron, one dominant scorer didn't work. But three does, or if you don't consider Bosh dominant, then Bron and Wade work. And before Bron got there, Shaq averaged 20 a game with Wade to win a championship.
Then theres MJ and Pippen, Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, and Robinson, over the years, Peja and Webber were nice, Barkley and Kevin Johnson, Bird and McHale, Magic and Kareem, Baylor and West, and many other successful duos.
We are 13-42, with 27 games left. Do you mean that well go 20-7, or 16-11 the rest of the way, or that we'll end up winning only 16-20 games total? Because the first option won't happen in this universe.
I would say backing Sessions from the start is a good call, but for many people. There wasn't this outcry of anger on this board or anywhere in Charlotte about Sessions. I think most people were pleased with the signing, and couldn't believe he would actually come here. The only person who hates Sessions is gamecocksmitty, but I really don't recall there being this big stink that Sessions was a waste.
So you shouldn't characterize it that you were the only one that knew Sessions would be a success, and then say we should watch more basketball. Is that really necessary to insult people when most people had good feelings about it in the first place? If anyone was arguing with you, it was because I think you wanted Sessions to start over Kemba, and most people didn't agree, right? And Kemba has proven that right with his play.
He's picking back up - 25 point per game last 3!
adam187 (02-24-2013), Bosnian-Bobcats-Fan (02-23-2013), kitch0202 (02-23-2013), ohara831 (02-23-2013), Scottley Crue (02-23-2013), spectre (02-23-2013), Wi11iWii (02-28-2013)
[QUOTE=QC Thundercats;238158]Man Gmit, do you save up all your thoughts a few weeks at a time and then unleash your threads on the board? Anyway, I'll try to be brief.
But besides that, I just wanted to check the stats for February alone, as thats easiest to find. Plus, the one game Hendo played less, he had 24 minutes and scored 15 points, which is his average scoring for the month, so throwing it out won't change much. Editing your list after checking ESPNs stats, I only saw this:
44% percent - ranked 33 among shooting guards
5.3 reb- 7th among shooting guards
2.4 assist -24th among shooting guards
4.8 free throw attempts- 6th among shooting guards
1.11 stls- 14 among shooting guards
15.4 ppg- 14 among shooting guards
27% - 47th among shooting guards
its simple, just shooting guards nothing else .position ranking isnt something ive just created , every position ranking whether its in a magazine or internet simplify it with 5 categories(pg,sg,sf,pf,c) and they dont throw in different position variables. if thats the case it would be 3 positions in the nba(thats only justified in all-star selections and all-nba selections).
i feel that 15 is great considered the non-coaching that dunlap is providing and that the main scorers on the team are all guards and a big who jacks . its just not white and black and there are some variables to consider when throwing in 15 points. hendo like i stated i feel is an great guard who may not put up 20 attempts or wow you with dribble moves but he's very consistent and plays within the teams concept and his game is expanding. hendo would fit great with popavich, theadabeau, scott skiles,and doc rivers.these coaches that would appreciate hendo because how he buys in to things and how diverse his game is.
also shabazz cant even dominate the college level , bad shots are considered as turnovers to most .
We are in a different age where there is less passing and fundamentals. before the 2000's basketball was more of a team oriented sport and didnt have alot of iso players except post players. also you forget that teams drafted superstars and assembled them from scratch ,so your all-star counterpart was somebody you played 8 years with ,not somebody added through free agency or via trade.
side note: the knicks have an bunch of role players and three good players (smith,amare,chandler).the knicks are way more successful with melo as the superstar because there is less confusing and everyone knows there roles.
like i mention in the beginning of my thread . lebron is one of the exceptions it wouldnt matter what situation you put him in .i also stated in the beginning of the article that one of the players has to be overly efficient and your naming the most efficient players in nba history ? for the sake of an arguement. 3 out of 6 teams that you mentioned the players where drafted together.
mj and pippen- mj self-explanatory .pippen mindset was something like hendo's , very laid back and an opportunist. pippen was more of an point guard on the bulls with an career avg of 19pts and 14 attempts a game not to mention they was drafted together.
heat present- lbj self explanatory. wade had alot of struggles at first , which leads me to believe that if he wasn't playing with lebron ,but lets say kobe,joe johnson,granger,westbrook then this convo would be alot different. bosh had to change his game to an pick and pop big man and still haven't been integrated .
heat past- shaq(self-explanatory) is the most dominant figure in sports and was in his prime still ,when he played with wade. not to mention wade was an good player not an superstar when shaq arrived.
kings - peja wasnt really a scorer but a shooter .yes he avg 20+ plus but it wasnt like he had to create an shot , shooters can fit in any offense by default. webber was one of the players that could fit on any team because he was an dominant big and had court vision. when webber arrived peja was in his early years and wasnt even an established player.
spurs,80's lakers - they was drafted together.
barkley and kj- i dnt even know where that came from but kj was a good player not great,and definitely not an superstar. barkley was the only superstar on the suns, nice reach though.
your correct i was typing off of fumes. i think we could get any where from 7-11 games.
You completely missed what I wrote then. I know that position rankings have been around forever, and of course you didn't create them. What I posted was the actual shooting guard rankings based on actual NBA stats. And they were pretty average overall, and not the high rankings that you wrote. Hence the reason why I said I don't know where you got your rankings from, because they don't reflect the actual stats of shooting guards for the month of February, as you claimed.
In addition, you wrote was that he was top 10 in two categories for guards, and top 15 in four other categories. If someone was just browsing the forum, they may assume he's tops in these categories for all guards, since you happened to leave out the operative word "shooting" guards, and would seemingly elevate his stats to elite status. But his stats aren't ranked that high, either for all guards or even just shooting guards as you claimed. No, they were the much lower rankings that I posted.
I know this is all based on your personal opinion, I guess your criteria for great is different from mine. For me, no matter what variables there are, 15 is not great, its just nice. "Great" would mean being able to overcome those variables. Ray Allen was able to overcome the selfishness and ball hogging of Glenn Robinson and Sam Cassell to average over 20. Paul Pierce was able to overcome Antoine Walker and Kenny Anderson's chucking to average over 25. Jamison got to 20 despite Arenas firing up every shot he could, and Caron Butler getting his too.
If 15 is great, tell me how many shooting guards have averaged 15 points per game in a season? Your list would be in the hundreds, as pretty much every decent starting 2 guard that has ever played in history has reached that level at one point in their career. Hell, Dell Curry reached that 4 times in his career, and he came off the bench. Do we consider him great? Maybe you do, but I think its only just nice.
Gmit, here is one issue I have with your debating style - you always make a declarative statement, and when someone counters it, you always move the goal posts, changing your parameters to fit your argument. This is your statement:
Nowhere do you state that they can't be drafted by the same team, or have played together for many years, or that it must be through trade or free agency. You simply state that 2 primary scorers can't coexist, point blank, period. And thats false. And then, if one happens to be overly efficient, then that excludes them too.history proves over and over that 2 primary ball-handlers or 2 score 1st mentality players doesnt work well.
And then you say before the 2000's don't count, yet your first statement says history proves.... This is contradictory. You can't argue both ways. If you keep making numerous exceptions, then sure, eventually your views will come true. Just like if I eliminate everyone over 6'2 and under 6'2, are Bobcat fans, and had fish tacos for dinner on February 12th, then I am the best basketball player in the world.
But see, it did matter what situation he was put in. When he was the sole superstar, they didn't win a championship. They got destroyed in the Finals, then kept getting beat in earlier and earlier rounds. When he joined another dominant scorer, he got back to the finals, and finally won one. So as I said, two is better than one.
I'll give you that MJ shouldn't be used as an example, as he is the greatest of all time.
Wade struggling at first doesn't matter, he was a dominant scorer before and after, this is just trying to find any small excuse to eliminate the example. Did he get his touch back? Yep, and they won a championship.
Regarding Shaq, prime Shaq is 30 points and 12 rebounds. With the Heat, he was averaging only 20 and 10, back to mortal status. And Wade averaged 27 points, 7 assists, 6 rebounds, made the all star team every year, and was the Finals MVP. He absolutely was a superstar with Shaq.
Peja was more than a shooter. What shooters can average 24 points a game? Does Korver, Kapono, Novak, Ryan Anderson, Bonner, or any other shooter average 24? No, he was another great scorer paired with Webber that wreaked a lot of havoc on the league, and they would've won a championship if the refs didn't screw them against the Lakers that one year. And so what if Webber was a dominant big and had court vision, these are new parameters you are adding to exclude him. All you asked for is two great scorers, and they both were.
A reach, huh? So you say KJ is not great, but you consider Joe Johnson and Deron Williams superstars? Let me do this comparison for you:
Player A:
3 time All Star, 5 time All-NBA player
Best seasons (only including seasons averaging over 20) of 22.5 points, 11.4 assists; 22.2/10.1; 20.4/12.2; 20/9.5; and 20.1/9.3
Player B:
3 time All Star, 2 time All-NBA player
Best seasons of 21.3/9.7; 20.1/10.3; 21/8.7
Player C:
6 time All Star, 1 time All-NBA player
Best seasons of 25.5/4.4; 21.7/5.8; 21.4/5.8; 21.3/4.9; 20.2/6.5
Wouldn't you say Player A overall is the most consistent scorer/assister of the 3? And has the most accolades? And probably would have more all-star appearances if not playing with Magic and Stockton all those years. So to have Joe Johnson and Deron Williams on your list, but then scoff at KJ, whose career is better than both of them, then the one who is reaching would not be me.
Henderson is good but Bazz and Mclemore are both upgrades over him. They have the potential to be much better than him. I think we should retain Hendo though if possible and make him our 6th man. He's been a leader on this team for a while and would be an excellent source of offense with his versatility. And if anyone on this team deserves to be paid its him. But in a starting lineup we need someone who can do more than kill the mid range game. We need someone who can hit 3's and spread the floor. But pairing him with Taylor off the bench and Sessions they'd help create a good second unit. Kemba is still developing and as the offense gets better his ability to orchestrate the offense will become better as well but if he isn't scoring in the mid 20's every game the Bobcats don't stand a chance at winning right now so for now he'll probably continue to look to score. But I think he'll put up Jrue Holiday numbers next season and moving forward.
i am not entirely convinced that bazz or mclemore is the best choice at sg. oladipo is very impressive. when people are throwing around wade and tarheel jordan like comps....
Oladipo is questionable as well. His 3pt percentage is off the charts but he doesn't take many 3's. Is he really a marksman from down town and can he maintain that 50+% 3 point percentage with more attempts. I love Oladipos defensive intensity and motor and he has top notch athleticism as well. I sincerely hope people aren't comparing Oladipo to them because Oladipo has great athletic ability and work ethic and his perimeter d is best at his position but he doesn't have a good feel for the game which is disappointing considering he is a Junior.
Ajinca (French for wasted draft pick)
I'd take Bazz and Mclemore over Oladipo...the Wade and jordan comparisons are so bad man..people are overrating oladipo so much
i am sure they are a bit much.
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