Ok I have to do this. First off let me say I love this team with every fiber in my body, I adore them and watch every single game they play. I try to have hope, I support them as much as I can. I buy merchandise, I go to games on tuesday nights against the Raptors and am the loudest one in the arena. This will never change, I will always love the Bobcats/Hornets.
I think Rich Cho has done good at acquiring assets and made a huge signing in Al Jefferson. But this dude is absolutely awful at drafting. I hear "Oh, we have to be patient!" Let's take a look
2011 Draft: #7 Bismack Biyombo.... Could have had Klay Thompson or Nikola Vucevic... Thompson is one of the deadliest shooters in the league (our biggest weakness) and Vucevic is posting stats we were hoping Biyombo would
#9 Kemba Walker.... Cho's best pick. He's a solid NBA PG.
2012 Draft: #2 MKG. The killer pick. Taken after: Damian Lillard, Bradley Beal, Andre Drummond, Harrison Barnes. I love MKG. He plays as hard as any player in the league and is awesome on D. But all those players I listed are better. MKG got out to a good start this year, awesome... but his scoring average has quickly dropped back to 9 ppg right where he was last year. Maybe he'll recover from this broken hand and end up averaging 12 ppg this year. But I don't see it happening. And I'll admit I love MKG and wanted us to take him, but it's looking like another big mistake right now.
2013 Draft: #4 Cody Zeller..... way too early to start freaking out too much. But he doesn't look very good at all.
Now I hear "Our players are young! We have to be patient and give them time!" Yes this is true to an extent, but how come those players I listed after we took MKG are all playing damn great ball. How come our players are held to a different standard? We heard Drummond was a massive project and he's averaging a double-double in his second year.
What I'm trying to say is: our core... it looks prettttttyyyyy bad right now. And we're too good that right now we have no chance at Jabari, Exum, Wiggins, Randle, etc. We will probably make the playoffs. Now I root for us to win, I can't pull against the team but tanking looks like the smartest idea right now.
Now I also realize we were one selection away from the consensus Anthony Davis and if we would have landed him this wouldn't be a thread right now and we'd be talking about how we have a franchise centerpiece. But we didn't get him, and the consolation prize is looking like a Tony Allen player right now.
You guys may call me a shitty fan, but I think I'm just being realistic. I can only be patient for so long especially while other players of similar age are looking like all-stars. Now I hope in a year or two one of you bump this thread and make me look like a complete idiot and eat all the crow in the world. I REALLY hope so... but right now I'm just calling it like I see it.
App State '18
i am with you on the 2012 draft with drummond and beal. barnes is much more a product of being in a great situation which maximizes his strengths.
2011: i am fine with high risk/high reward pick. unfortunately, it did not work out. if you were on vucevic at draft time then kudos to you. having a starting five of kemba, beal, vucevic would be fantastic right now. i also think thompson is in a perfect situation. he is a dead on shooter but fairly slow and a non-penetrating sg.
i agree we definitely missed on the 2012 draft (for our team). with that said, mkg is not a bust by any means and is a jumpshot away from being a very very good player.
I agree 100%.
It's frustrating to look back at all the draft mistakes (they predate Cho) we've never landed the great player.
Our team isn't that bad . We may have missed 2-3 wins added to what our record is now if it wasn't for the bad player rotations. We lost 2 close games against playoff caliber teams,so we are competing at a high level. This whole thread comes back to Mkg , who I stated wasn't a bad player but not someone who you would make a franchise player but a glue guy. I probably stated over 15 different times that Mkg is very limited at what he does and 2nd picks of any draft isn't suppose to be one dimensional unless your excellent at that specific area.
When everyone was stating that we should find a shooter to compliment Mkg , I was stating we should find a better shooting sf to compliment Hendo. When a large portion of the thread knocked the signing of Big Al ,I knew how special a player he was, and at this point in the year Hendo is looking like the 2nd best player on our team. I'm always ahead of the curve ,so I'm going to keep touting my horn.
By the way I'm 2nd in the fantasy lg(Jimmy Butler's injury is killing me though)
Last edited by gm in potty training; 12-05-2013 at 11:06 PM.
Beal is ok ,nothing close to the player everyone makes him to be. Turnover prone, and horrid shot selection. If any shooting guard in the lg shot 19 times a game , I'm pretty sure they would avg 20 pts too.
Drummond is a beast but lets be fair to cho,if the whole lg had the chance in the top 5 wouldn't have picked Drummond ,so that wasn't as clear cut as many are making it. I don't remember his name being brought up in draft threads at all.
I agree Klay Thompson is a sharp-shooter , but he plays besides a great pg , sf, and pf who are great passers for their positions . Klay could be a product of his environment because his creating skills suck ass too.
Last edited by gm in potty training; 12-05-2013 at 11:12 PM.
Chef nailed it on Klay, he's benefiting a lot from being in a great situation. On the worst team in NBA history, he probably would not have shot so lights out. Who knows, he might have had a rough start to his career and crawled into a bong if he was drafted by us. Vuc would have been a solid pick but he's almost as bad defensively as Biz is offensively. He's productive and should be a solid pro but I'm not kicking myself for picking Biz over him. A lot of GMs missed out on Vuc. I was happy with the Biz pick then and still am, mostly b/c it was the first time that Charlotte pulled the trigger on a high risk/high reward kind of player. Charlotte has a bad history of selecting established, low ceiling college guys, wussing out on 'safe picks' so this departure from that failed strategy was great to see. It's a long shot that Biz becomes a special player but that's the risk you take. If Biz was an example of Cho's worst drafting, we'd be in much better shape right now.2011 Draft: #7 Bismack Biyombo.... Could have had Klay Thompson or Nikola Vucevic... Thompson is one of the deadliest shooters in the league (our biggest weakness) and Vucevic is posting stats we were hoping Biyombo would
He's a solid player but the verdict's still out whether or not he can actually play PG. I'm starting to lose my patience in this dept. but I'm trying to stay neutral since Kemba has had 3 different coaches in 3 years and PG is a really dependent position on a coach's schemes.#9 Kemba Walker.... Cho's best pick. He's a solid NBA PG.
This was the draft that sowed the seeds of doubt about Cho's drafting ability for me. I've been a religious hoops junkie for about 20 years and ~15 of those the draft had been my area of concentration. Cho committed a lot of cardinal sins in this draft.2012 Draft: #2 MKG. The killer pick. Taken after: Damian Lillard, Bradley Beal, Andre Drummond, Harrison Barnes. I love MKG. He plays as hard as any player in the league and is awesome on D. But all those players I listed are better. MKG got out to a good start this year, awesome... but his scoring average has quickly dropped back to 9 ppg right where he was last year. Maybe he'll recover from this broken hand and end up averaging 12 ppg this year. But I don't see it happening. And I'll admit I love MKG and wanted us to take him, but it's looking like another big mistake right now.
Cardinal Sin #1: Going "quality" over quantity when your rebuilding team is completely devoid of talent/stars
The second we ended up with the 2nd overall pick, Cho should have been wearing out the phone for trade down scenarios. Our team was so devoid of talent and the players available after Anthony Davis were so many and comparable in terms of benefiting us that not wheeling and dealing was almost guaranteed to be the worst way to go. Rumors abounded that Washington and Cleveland were really hard up for either Beal or MKG and if you examine the Driven documentary on the draft it intimates that Charlotte had at least 2 opportunities to trade down for multiple picks. You can actually see on the Bobcat's draft board in one shot that one of those teams was Cleveland and the other was I think Washington or Portland. Since we needed help EVERYWHERE (we just won 7 games) we shouldn't have been married to any sort of position and trading down with Cleveland for their 4th pick and 24th pick should have been a no-brainer. Draft the BPA guy that falls to 4. Cleveland probably would have drafted Beal or MKG and Washington taking whichever of those two were left, leaving Thomas Robinson (meh), Andre Drummond (the right pick) Harrison Barnes (eh) and Damian Lillard (also a good pick) as the BPA. Then, pick up another BPA at 24 (Wroten, Moultrie, PJII, etc). Asset collecting 101. (Take Taylor or whomever if you still have that pick).
Cardinal Sin #2: Choosing fit over BPA
Drummond was an athletic freak at his position, the kind of player that doesn't come around but maybe once every 5-7 years. He's a project but he's huge and fluid and unlike Biz has been playing basketball at a higher level for longer so his learning curve would not be nearly as steep. Even the worst case scenario of Drummond (the Drummond at UConn) would have provided a ton for Charlotte: Rebounding, defense, and athleticism. Bigs with tons of potential always retain lots of good trade value for a good while, hence the adage of never trading a big for a small. Even the guy he was constantly compared to, DeAndre Jordan, had enough value to be worth a hefty contract to somebody.
Lillard looked amazing in predraft workouts and his college numbers were nice. Not only was he nicely skilled for his position, he has really great size for a PG also. Cho passed on Drummond b/c he didn't want 2 project centers on the team (big mistake, he shouldn't be concerned with fit that early in the rebuild and Biz certainly didn't play well enough to be penned in as C of the franchise). Likewise, Lillard probably wasn't on Cho's radar b/c we already had Kemba (who played terrible his rookie year also, mind you). Instead, Cho and the FO decided to address the glaring hole at SF left behind by Maggette's departure.
Cardinal Sin #3: Taking a wing, especially a project wing, very high in the draft.
Nothing personal against MKG here but if you're taking a wing #2 overall, that guy needs to be as can't miss as it gets. Because you can draft good college wings just about every year. Even in last year's historically weak draft, there were wings worth drafting that would have been comparable: McLemore, Caldwell-Pope, MCW, Muhammad, Antetokounmpo, Snell, Hardaway, Jr, etc. Unlike bigs, wings practically grow on trees from a drafting perspective. PGs are harder to fill than wings also b/c elite PGs have high IQ and the combo of high IQ and physical tools at PG is rare to find. There was nothing about MKG that suggested "can't miss" prospect, all you have to do is see him hoist one jumpshot.
Cardinal Sin #4: Falling in love with "your guy" so much that you pass up prospects that fall2013 Draft: #4 Cody Zeller..... way too early to start freaking out too much. But he doesn't look very good at all.
Cardinal Sin #5: Falling in love with Combine numbers
Cho might have committed this sin first with Bismack also but he definitely bit the apple on this one. Cho had been a regular at IU's games since Zeller's freshman year. God knows, if Zeller had came out his rookie year, we might be looking at Cody Zeller as Charlotte's #2 pick in 2012. Zeller's not a big in the traditional sense. He plays small, doesn't like contact, and can't post up nor defend in the post that well. So he's a stretch 4, right? Yeah, pretty apparent he doesn't have the skill set of a stretch 4 now, maybe he develops later but at this stage of the rebuild it's a little late to start trying to experiment with molding projects into new roles.
We're not too good right now to get a Parker, Wiggins, Exum, Randle, etc. Especially not after losing our best defender for 6 weeks. We've only got a win or two more than super-tank teams like Philly or Orlando. We might make the playoffs but I doubt it, some teams we look better than are starting to get their ish together (Wizards, Pistons, maybe Cavs, etc), the NY teams can't both be this bad all year, so we're still a very good bet to be in the high lottery. Our offense is abysmal and near the league's worst, that will catch up to us as our defense is surely to fall (teams will figure out how to attack us plus MKG is out). We have the most back-to-back games in the NBA and we can't beat good teams plus we're almost guaranteed big losing streaks during roadtrips out west (which is generally nothing but good teams). Our tank is still strong.What I'm trying to say is: our core... it looks prettttttyyyyy bad right now. And we're too good that right now we have no chance at Jabari, Exum, Wiggins, Randle, etc. We will probably make the playoffs. Now I root for us to win, I can't pull against the team but tanking looks like the smartest idea right now.
Nah, I applaud your honesty. Realism is always welcome in sports fandom in my book.You guys may call me a shitty fan, but I think I'm just being realistic. I can only be patient for so long especially while other players of similar age are looking like all-stars. Now I hope in a year or two one of you bump this thread and make me look like a complete idiot and eat all the crow in the world. I REALLY hope so... but right now I'm just calling it like I see it.
If you're absolutely starved of Bobcat's musings, my blog is here: http://bobcatatonic.wordpress.com/
I think all of our picks were just about right except Mkg. I think Mkg would struggle to log 30 mins on anyteam .Mkg was more of 11 and up type pick. Nothing is wrong with our core players, they just need time to gel with Al and the coaching staff. The Pacers,Thunder,and Warriors had some speed bumps but they all kept their young core and added acquisitions along the way.
As I remember Hibbert wasn't looking to good , Ibacka was horrible offensively and a poor rebounder,and Mark Jackson as a coach had some growing pains with a very young team .
If Kemba was on the Spurs in a Tony Parker role ,then we would be having a different conversation .
If Biz was on the Mavericks as a enforcer/ rebounder , then we would have a different conversation.
If Hendo was the starting guard for the Grizzles , then we would have a different converstaion.
My point everyone looks better on another team but it's all about personnel and situation.
If you're absolutely starved of Bobcat's musings, my blog is here: http://bobcatatonic.wordpress.com/
Scary to know you're still a bad team and yet with everyone else tanking hard and too many of our clueless fans pushing for meaningless wins, we are on schedule to miss out on opportunities to really improve our team over the next year. Its like watching a car drive down the wrong side of the road on course for a collision with a mack truck... you have no control over it but you see horrible consequences ahead. Whats worse is the organization should know better by now...