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Let's get rid of him. I don't care anymore. I'm just tired of everyone blaming Felton for all of our losses when he's not losing games by himself.Originally Posted by Big Slam
Thanks again so much supersub15 (Raps mod at RGM) for creating the data and allowing me to share it with our board.
I've compiled some comparative stats for all starting PGs in the league. Here's the breakdown.
Jump-shooters vs. rim-attackers:
Code:Player JUMP% INSIDE% Rajon Rondo 40.0 60.0 Russell Westbrook 51.0 49.0 Rodney Stuckey 53.0 47.0 Andre Miller 56.0 44.0 Derrick Rose 58.0 42.0 Chris Duhon 63.0 37.0 Devin Harris 64.0 36.0 Tony Parker 64.0 36.0 T.J. Ford 65.0 35.0 Beno Udrih 65.0 35.0 Raymond Felton 67.0 33.0 Mike Conley 68.0 32.0 Randy Foye 69.0 31.0 Deron Williams 69.0 31.0 Baron Davis 71.0 29.0 Chris Paul 71.0 29.0 D.J. Augustin 73.0 27.0 C.J. Watson 74.0 26.0 Mario Chalmers 74.0 26.0 Rafer Alston 75.0 25.0 Mike James 75.0 25.0 Jameer Nelson 76.0 24.0 Jason Kidd 82.0 18.0 Mo Williams 84.0 16.0 Chauncey Billups 84.0 16.0 Jose Calderon 85.0 15.0 Steve Nash 85.0 15.0 Derek Fisher 86.0 14.0 Luke Ridnour 89.0 11.0 Steve Blake 92.0 8.0 Mike Bibby 93.0 7.0
Obviously, Rondo can't shoot and so is forced to drive time and again. I think a good mixture is the Devin Harris and Tony Parker mix of 65% to 35%, but if your jumpshot is very good, then it doesn't really matter, as evidenced by Jameer Nelson, Chauncey Billups and Jose Calderon at the bottom of the list.
Now, the above numbers don't mean much without looking at the conversion rate of their attempts. TS% (True Shooting Percentage) allows to see who are the most efficient shooters from all distances (FGA, 3FGA, FTA).
Most efficient shooters:
Code:Player TS% Jose Calderon 63.1 Jameer Nelson 61.6 Steve Nash 61.1 Chris Paul 60.9 Devin Harris 59.0 Chauncey Billups 58.9 Steve Blake 58.7 Mike Bibby 58.5 Mo Williams 58.4 Chris Duhon 58.0 Rajon Rondo 56.5 Mario Chalmers 56.5 Derek Fisher 56.2 Tony Parker 55.7 C.J. Watson 55.7 Rodney Stuckey 53.6 D.J. Augustin 55.5 Deron Williams 53.4 T.J. Ford 52.8 Derrick Rose 52.7 Andre Miller 51.9 Luke Ridnour 51.3 Mike Conley 51.0 Randy Foye 49.6 Beno Udrih 49.2 Russell Westbrook 49.0 Jason Kidd 48.9 Rafer Alston 48.3 Mike James 47.4 Raymond Felton 46.1 Baron Davis 45.5
It's good to know however who are the usage of each of these players to figure out who helps his team with his shooting and who is killing his team with his inefficiency:
Usage Rate:
Baron Davis is obviously using too many possessions and when you combine with his putrid TS%, then he's sinking his team. Calderon on the other hand is not helping his team when he should. He leads all PGs with his TS%, but uses only 16.7% of his team's possessions. That's too passive. He should be among the team's leaders in shot attempts, probably ahead of Bosh, due to his incredible efficiency.Code:Player USG% Tony Parker 32.3 Devin Harris 28.4 Baron Davis 26.1 Russell Westbrook 25.7 Chris Paul 24.7 Rodney Stuckey 23.3 Deron Williams 23.3 Mo Williams 22.8 Derrick Rose 22.7 Jameer Nelson 22.6 Steve Nash 21.9 Randy Foye 21.8 D.J. Augustin 21.7 Mike James 21.7 T.J. Ford 21.6 Raymond Felton 21.6 Chauncey Billups 21.5 Mike Bibby 20.8 Andre Miller 20.8 Beno Udrih 19.9 Rafer Alston 18.9 Jason Kidd 18.1 Luke Ridnour 18.1 Rajon Rondo 17.9 Steve Blake 17.7 Jose Calderon 16.7 Mike Conley 16.4 C.J. Watson 16.3 Derek Fisher 16.2 Mario Chalmers 16.0 Chris Duhon 14.3
Well, if you're not shooting, you should be doing something else on the court, like assists and defensive rebounding:
Code:Player AST% Chris Paul 56.5 Deron Williams 44.8 Jose Calderon 41.0 Tony Parker 40.8 Steve Nash 39.0 Baron Davis 38.5 Rajon Rondo 38.4 Devin Harris 32.7 Chauncey Billups 31.7 Rodney Stuckey 31.5 Chris Duhon 30.9 Jameer Nelson 30.7 Andre Miller 30.1 Luke Ridnour 29.5 Raymond Felton 29.4 Derrick Rose 27.8 Mike Bibby 26.9 Beno Udrih 26.3 D.J. Augustin 26.2 Russell Westbrook 26.0 T.J. Ford 25.8 Steve Blake 23.9 Randy Foye 23.8 Rafer Alston 23.5 Mario Chalmers 22.3 Mo Williams 21.3 Mike Conley 20.9 Mike James 20.5 Derek Fisher 16.6 Jason Kidd 15.0 C.J. Watson 14.1
Calderon is top 3 in that regard, as 41% of his possessions end up with an assist. Chris Paul detroys everybody in this category.
Code:CODE: SELECT ALL Player DRB% Chris Paul 14.5 Jason Kidd 14.3 Rajon Rondo 13.3 Mike Conley 13.1 T.J. Ford 12.1 Luke Ridnour 11.7 Mike Bibby 10.4 Jose Calderon 10.2 Raymond Felton 10.0 Rodney Stuckey 9.8 C.J. Watson 9.8 Tony Parker 9.4 Steve Nash 9.3 Mario Chalmers 9.0 Devin Harris 8.8 Chris Duhon 8.7 Mike James 8.7 Deron Williams 8.6 Rafer Alston 8.5 Baron Davis 8.4 Derrick Rose 8.4 Beno Udrih 8.4 Steve Blake 8.4 Andre Miller 8.3 Derek Fisher 7.8 Russell Westbrook 7.7 Chauncey Billups 7.0 D.J. Augustin 6.8 Jameer Nelson 6.2 Mo Williams 6.1 Randy Foye 6.0
Again, Calderon is doing his part on the defensive glass with a good Defensive Rebounding rating. It's amazing though that Chris Paul, probably one of the shortest guys on th ecourt, leads all PGs in this category.
Who takes care of the ball the most? PPR (Pure Point Rating) is a stat that replaces Ast/TO and is a better indicator of the best PGs at taking care of the ball. Anything at 10 and above is considered exceptional:
What can I say, Chris Paul is amazing. Calderon is not too shabby either.Code:Player PPR Chris Paul 12.5 Jose Calderon 10.6 Jason Kidd 8.7 Rajon Rondo 8.5 Chauncey Billups 8.1 Deron Williams 7.9 Baron Davis 7.6 Chris Duhon 6.7 Andre Miller 5.7 Tony Parker 5.6 Mike Bibby 5.6 Devin Harris 5.3 Steve Nash 5.3 Rafer Alston 5.0 Rodney Stuckey 4.9 Steve Blake 4.9 Derek Fisher 4.5 Jameer Nelson 4.4 Mike Conley 4.4 Raymond Felton 4.2 Luke Ridnour 4.2 T.J. Ford 4.0 Derrick Rose 3.4 D.J. Augustin 3.2 Randy Foye 3.0 Mario Chalmers 2.7 Beno Udrih 1.8 C.J. Watson 1.8 Mo Williams 1.7 Russell Westbrook -0.3 Mike James -0.9
Now, for the final and best stat in my opinion: Net PER. This is basically what each PG produces from the PG position for 48 minutes, and what he allows to the opponent PG in 48 minutes. This is not an extrapolation. These 48 minutes are actual played minutes.
Obviously, positive production is good. Positive production over 10 is just out of this world.Code:Player PER48 OPP PER48 NET PER Chris Paul 33.5 18.7 14.8 Tony Parker 26.2 16.5 9.7 Devin Harris 28.0 18.8 9.2 Chauncey Billups 22.7 14.5 8.2 Jameer Nelson 22.8 16.1 6.7 Rajon Rondo 21.9 17.4 4.5 Mike Bibby 21.1 16.9 4.2 Jose Calderon 20.8 16.6 4.2 Derrick Rose 18.0 13.8 4.2 Russell Westbrook 17.7 13.8 3.9 D.J. Augustin 15.6 13.3 2.4 Steve Nash 19.8 17.9 1.9 Steve Blake 17.8 16.0 1.8 T.J. Ford 17.7 15.9 1.8 Mario Chalmers 15.1 13.3 1.8 Deron Williams 18.5 17.4 1.1 Baron Davis 17.7 16.7 1.0 C.J. Watson 15.3 14.3 1.0 Andre Miller 18.7 18.6 0.1 Mo Williams 21.1 21.7 -0.6 Derek Fisher 18.4 19.8 -1.4 Rodney Stuckey 19.7 21.2 -1.5 Beno Udrih 14.8 16.3 -1.5 Mike James 14.7 16.3 -1.6 Jason Kidd 19.7 21.4 -1.7 Rafer Alston 14.6 16.7 -2.1 Mike Conley 13.7 16.3 -2.6 Luke Ridnour 15.1 18.4 -3.3 Chris Duhon 14.6 18.6 -4.0 Raymond Felton 13.0 18.0 -5.0 Randy Foye 11.3 19.5 -8.2
I can safely say that Chris Paul is the best PG in the world. The rest is up for debate.
Debate is now open...
Last edited by Slam; 01-02-2009 at 10:05 AM.
Let's get rid of him. I don't care anymore. I'm just tired of everyone blaming Felton for all of our losses when he's not losing games by himself.
SOMEONE will pay for THIS!
The Bobcats will not get a quality veteren in a trade that involves Raymond Felton. They are lucky to get anything of value for him. I don't think the sole problem with the team is Felton. I do however have an issue with his stupdity and wrecklessness at times. Still as I have said in other post, Raymond has had a bad stretch when having to carry the load. Raymond should not be the starter when he plays like he has. If DJ comes back 100% and plays at a high level it may help the team enough to where Raymond does not feel the need to try and carry the team.
If the team had some depth Felton would not be such an issue. This team is weak on the bench and it shows late in games. Unfortunately, I think this is a lottery team unless we somehow can trade our garbage for something of value.
That was a pretty interesting breakdown of pgs. Nice post.
SOMEONE will pay for THIS!
What really surprises me is Calderon and Jameer Nelson. Calderon is (by those stats) the second best PG in the NBA, wouldn't have expected that. Jameer Nelson seems to be a VERY solid PG for me thinking he's a mediocre talent.
Chris Paul is just basically the best PG in the world and there's no disputing that fact.
For the lazier folks, Raymond Felton turns 67% of his possessions into jump shots vs. attacking the rim. That seems alarmingly high for a guy who can't really shoot that well. He needs to take the ball to the rim much more a la Rajon Rondo who only shoots on 40% of his attempts.
Felton is second to last in true shooting percentage at 46.1% That combined with his high jumper percentage really shows how terribly inefficient he is on the offensive end.
Felton uses 21.6% of the teams possessions. In other words, one out of every five times down the court, he's the one who takes the shot. That's not too bad as there's five guys on the court so he doesn't use the ball more than his fair share, but I would like to see that a little bit lower.
29.4% of Felton's possessions are turned into assists. That can be looked at in many different ways; he could take too many shots or his teammates could not finish the passes. He's simply killed by Chris Paul who has a 56.5%.
Felton's DRP (Defensive Rebounding Percentage) is 10.0% You would think the defensive glass is a place where he would excel, but he's 9th on this list behind the likes of Chris Paul, Jason Kidd, and even T.J. Ford. He's not shabby in the least, but if he's not that much of an offensive threat I would like to see it higher. Being behind Chris Paul on THIS rating is simply vincent-like to me.
PPR (Pure Point Rating) is a stat that replaces Ast/TO and is a better indicator of the best PGs at taking care of the ball. Anything at 10 and above is considered exceptional. Raymond Felton is an abysmal 4.2. He's simply one of the least efficient PG's in the league at this point in the season. There's no combating that little factoid.
And last but not least, Raymond Felton has a -5.0 (yes NEGATIVE) net per48 production rating. He is only above Randy Foye who is a terrible -8.2. Simply put, he does more harm to the team than he does good. This is a tough percetange though as the middle of the pack is basically 0 +/-1. Chris Paul is an otherworldly 14.8, Jameer a 6.7, Steve Nash a 1.9, and Jason Kidd a -1.7.
So let's face it guys, there really isn't much discussion to it, Raymond Felton isn't much more than a mediocre PG. I hate saying that as I think he's a great guy and a solid NBA player, but he just doesn't fit for this team anymore. It's time for the changing of the guard (pun intended) to DJ and time for us to move on as a franchise. No doubt will his numbers improve on a better team so hopefully if we don't retain him he moves on to a team that can maximize his talent.
Don't get me wrong dnb - I'm not putting all the blame of our losses on Felts at all. He's not the only guy paddling that boat. All of the guys are guilty, just some more (and more often) than others.
I was just interested in the "There aren't many guards who get as many rebounds as he does" statement and wanted to look into it. I will say I was surprised with what I found. I thought Felts would be at the top of the list, not in the middle/lower half.
Your list of "pgs" was a bit misleading though. Half of those guys play as much or more sg as they do pg and are actually taller players that are legitimate sgs. On NBA.com, Felton is ranked like 25 out of all guards, including guys like Kobe.
Now, that doesn't take into account the many guards you mentioned that are close to him, which suggests he's pretty mediocre. However, he's not in the lower half of guards for sure. However, I did think he was higher than that compared to other pgs, so I was definitely wrong.
SOMEONE will pay for THIS!
Thanks for breaking all that down Swedd. I was going to but didn't want people to think I was biased or trying to single Felts out. I just found it all very interesting.
I will add this:
I think this is a mix of Felts playing with guys who are not efficient themselves (which effects Felts numbers) and Paul playing basketoop with Chandler and having a very efficient PF in West.
This is THE most telling thing. I see a LOT of Felts in Nelson. After 3 years in the L a lot of fans (Magic included) questioning if Nelson belonged in the NBA. Too small, couldn't shoot, not fast enough - blah, blah, blah.Jameer Nelson seems to be a VERY solid PG for me thinking he's a mediocre talent.
What a lot of people didn't know is that Nelson was the off court leader of the team. He personally paid for the entire team to fly out to his place each summer just to "get together". He was the one who phoned each of his team mates twice a week each during each summer just to stay in touch.
So the Magic lock him up long term at a pretty good rate ($7.5mil per year for 5 years) which, at the time, seemed like a lot at the time.
But now he's having his best year as a pro, shooting the ball well over 50% from the floor, 85% from the line, 44% from down town, getting 3 boards, 5 assists a game and turning the ball over only twice a game all while racking up 17 points per.
So now all of a sudden, $7.5mil a year for a very productive, young, high character starting PG seems like a great deal.
Like I said, I see a lot of similarities between the two.
The only real difference is that Nelson never had a guy like DJ right behind him.
Or a front court of Hedo, Lewis, and Howard.
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He always had Hedo and Howard (they all arrived at the Magic the same year) and he's had Lewis for 1 1/2.
It's just taken some time for it to "click" for him personally on the court. Now that it has, he's showing what made BB like him so much out of St Joes.
I'm wondering if Felts might experience the same thing in the next year or two. The problem is, do we have the time to wait and to take that chance that it does?
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